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  #1  
Old 08-21-2006, 07:27 AM
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Posted By: Mike P

Just when you thought it had gone away for a while...

Michael O'Keeffe of the New York Daily News not only regurgitates last week's bad news story, but conflates it with the fiction that anybody -- besides Cobb, Edwards, and auctioneer Connelly -- cares who's selling a bogus Honus.

O'Keeffe's article, "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible," is here (scroll down):
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/444941p-374723c.html

He says, in part:

"On Network 54, an Internet vintage card forum, the reaction was mixed. Some collectors were angry that Cobb and Edwards weren't dismissed as crooks.

Others agreed that Cobb and Edwards may be on to something when they say prejudice has played a role in the debate over their card."

Of course, all the folks who are quoted as thinking the card is a fake ARE white.

Cincinnati sports memorabilia dealer Wolter inspected the card and told Cobb & Edwards it wasn't genuine eight or nine years ago, then again Tuesday on Real Sports.

Joe Orlando of PSA finally broke his long careful silence on Real Sports and pointed out the crucial differences in the typography under the image.

And then there's NY broker Mike "Mango" Mangaserian (sp), whom O'Keeffe played up in an earlier column. Mike inspected the card in Manhattan and thought it might be okay. He handled it in Binghamton before the auction and said the paper felt wrong. He didn't bid for his client.

Of course, just about everybody here on VBC is white, too.

Obviously, a racial conspiracy!

The Cobb/Edwards card has been called controversial. Nonsense. The only question is how Cobb and Edwards manage to keep their "story" alive in the national media.

The time is always right to do what is right.
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.

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  #2  
Old 08-21-2006, 07:36 AM
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Posted By: jay behrens

I thought this board was filled with rich Asians from the West Coast?

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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  #3  
Old 08-21-2006, 08:18 AM
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Posted By: David Smith

I posted before the auction even ended that 2 things were going to happen; 1) the race card was going to be played and 2) somebody was going to get sued.

Well, the first thing has happened. Now I am just waiting to see who gets sued.....This whole story is just pathetic and shows why America is going downhill.

Oh and Jay, as far as your comment, two Wongs don't make a right--trying to sell a fake Wagner as an original and then saying race had something to do with it not selling.

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Old 08-21-2006, 08:37 AM
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Posted By: dennis

we had a collector on this forum, who is black ,say the card is fake!

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Old 08-21-2006, 08:50 AM
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Posted By: David Vargha

Well, as a one-armed, dyslexic, midget, gay black man, I think it is fake as well. There . . . now they can quote a black man as well.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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  #6  
Old 08-21-2006, 09:08 AM
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Posted By: leon

Well, seems our board does get a little attention. I like this quote from the article:

"Others agreed that Cobb and Edwards may be on to something when they say prejudice has played a role in the debate over their card."


This was pertaining to what we said on the board, I believe. Is this media contortionism at it's best? I would like O'keefe to come onto this board, or anyone, and show one instance that there was anything racial going on, besides the crooks that came onto this board and were crying the racial card.... Those guys could have been albino's from NH and the card would still be a worthless fake. They are scammers that have told the lie so much that now they believe it and if that doesn't work then it must be because they are black that the card is fake. That's just stupid. regards

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Old 08-21-2006, 09:18 AM
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Posted By: john/z28jd

Id like to know who here said they might be on to something when they said race may play a factor? I think we all agree that the only factor on whether the card is real or not is the fact we all know its fake just by looking at it in scans.Its an obvious fake.

Someone is reading this board obviously so here it goes. Take the card in question and compare it to any real known t206. Comapre the borders,the printing on the card and realize it isnt the same.Go to the hall of fame, where there is a real Wagner on display(that no one has ever questioned the authenticity of ever) and compare theirs to it.Take it to any expert you want at a card show and ask them.If its real do you think a company such as Mastro would turn down the card for their auction when it would not only make them alot of money but draw a huge amount of attention towards their auction.Go to any legit auction run by card experts who actually sell cards and ask them if they want to have a card which could make them tens of thousands of dollars and get them a large amount of exposure and when they say yes,show them that card and look at their reaction. People dont see black when they sell cards for someone, they see green

If they think 100's of legit dealers are all conspiring to not make money eventho alot of them could use it,and numerous buyers with money to spare who would love to buy a Wagner, are all holding out for another one because the sellers are black, then they are crazy and dont want to hear the truth.The other problem with that thinking is that theyre saying theres no black dealers in the industry(which i know is obviously false just from going to shows) and theres no black buyers who can afford the card? which again is another false statement because we know there is,ask Dmitri Young for help and see what he says,he spends more on cards per year then most of us will in our lifetimes.

No one at our little board is trying to keep a new Wagner card out of the collecting community.If someone finds a new Wagner thats real we all want to know about it no matter who the new owner of the card is.

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Old 08-21-2006, 09:18 AM
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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

"all the folks who are quoted as thinking the card is a fake ARE white."

Interesting.

I posted in that thread, and said that I thought the card was fake.

I must have been out the day the Daily News fact-checker called my house to confirm my ethnic origin.

-Al

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  #9  
Old 08-21-2006, 09:28 AM
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Posted By: joe brennan

They had their 15 minutes of fame. I wish they would take their card, burn it and go back to selling refurbished cell phones and horny goat weed.

People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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  #10  
Old 08-21-2006, 09:44 AM
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Posted By: Joann

Wow. I really don't remember anyone in any thread saying that race was a factor in why no one wanted to believe the card is real. I DO remember a few posts saying that if race were a factor, it was only in getting the story more news coverage and that if the sellers were caucasian this wouldn't be a story at all.

Sorry - I'm paraphrasing those posters because I have zero desire or inclination to go back and reread all the hundreds of posts in the different threads on the issue. I think I pretty much got the gist of the comments right, but feel free to ring in if I misspoke for anyone.

Anyway, could THAT be the kind of comment that this journalist is using to imply that some on this board did think that race played a role in this situation???

Joann

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Old 08-21-2006, 09:45 AM
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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Run Forrest run...

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  #12  
Old 08-21-2006, 10:34 AM
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Posted By: Paul

There was a sarcastic post in the original thread where a member said he wouldn't buy the card because the sellers were black. Perhaps the sarcasm was lost on the "journalist."

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Old 08-21-2006, 10:39 AM
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Posted By: Jeff O

Hmmm... my recollection is that the only person who brought up race as a possible factor on this board was the actual seller himself. It's great how his own inane comments are now attributed to unnamed others. That's just great reporting.

The thing that is so ridiculous about this is that if the Wagner is real, it represents a very significant find and a valuable collectible. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the people with the scratch to buy such an item could really care less who owns it now or who discovered it if it is indeed real. If the card was real they would have no problem finding a buyer.

What's really important, however, can be found in another article on that same page by the same writer - former wrestling superstar Diamond Dallas Page is now into yoga! If that's not big news I don't know what is.

Jeff
A white guy who practices yoga who would buy a card from an African American guy if it was a card he needed.

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Old 08-21-2006, 10:46 AM
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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Perhaps Dr. Johnson's contention that "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" should be amended to say "The cry of racism is the last refuge of the scoundrel", for these characters.

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  #15  
Old 08-21-2006, 10:48 AM
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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Lets put this to the acid test -

Would anyone not buy this card (if it were real) just because Osama bin Laden owned it or was selling it?

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  #16  
Old 08-21-2006, 10:57 AM
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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

delete

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Old 08-21-2006, 11:29 AM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

What I'm worried about is someone deciding that those 2 guys are originally from Kentucky, and they wandered over the river there at Cincinnati to get out of the Bluegrass State. A fellow can better sell "investments" over in Ohio.

Actually, you guys did predict the race dynamic... A pretty savvy bunch of guys on this board.

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Old 08-21-2006, 12:00 PM
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Posted By: Boccabella

The story could have been more clear, but I don't believe the writer is saying members of this board who were quoted were all white --he's referring to those in the piece on HBO. The line reads close to the reference of this forum so it's probably construed that way by some. And he really needs to identify the "collectors" who claim race played a factor..or at least say where that observation is coming from. That's a bit reckless. The piece is just a segment from a "notes" type of column, so it's lacking some depth, unfortunately.

But......a nice plug for the board in a big-time newspaper.

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Old 08-21-2006, 12:02 PM
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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Hell, even OJ says it's a fake!

Frank

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  #20  
Old 08-21-2006, 12:03 PM
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Posted By: john/z28jd

Heres the same reprint they have.I recieved the card from a dealer getting out of cards in 1991 and at that time the card looked old,so i could see it being a reprint from the 70's. Is anyone fooled by the front of this card?



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  #21  
Old 08-21-2006, 12:07 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

This card has been offered for sale many times over the past few years. This card was originally offered on eBay, and the card was universally labelled a fake, and the card was removed by eBay. There was no indication anywhere of the seller's race. It was AFTER the auction that there was the Cincinnati newspaper had an article with pictures of the owners.

Read the Cincinnati Post article yourself. It is the FIRST time the owner's pictures were ever published and the FIRST time the hobby had any knowledge of the seller's race. In the article, it mentions that eBay had EARLIER pulled the auction. In the article, Bill Mastro says he said (PAST TENSE) the card a reprint. Presumably, Mastro had not seen pictures of the owners at the time, as the article and photos wasn't published until AFTER his statement.

Thus, the card was widely judged a fake and eBay had pulled the auction BEFORE the hobby had any knowledge or inkling of the seller's race, and, thus, was not influenced by race.

Even a NY Daily News writer should be able to figure out that the stuff in the Cincinnati article had to have happened BEFORE the article and photos were published. And, if the publication of the article was the FIRST time the owners' race was identified, then the events described in the very article happened BEFORE the hobby knew the owners' race.

All a logical, inteligent person has to do to make a judgment is to mark down the Cincinnati newspaper article pubication date on a calendar, and know that the events that happened before that date happened without knowledge of the sellers' race. I won't make judgment for others, but if one is to plot the events on the calendar, I suspect one will judge that the card was treated remarkably similarly by the hobby before and after the publication date. For example, eBay cancelled the auction of the card after the publication date, but they also cancelled the auction of the same card more than once before the date. People labelled the card a fake after the publication date, but people labelled the same card a fake before the pubication date. In these two examples at least, the hobby reaction appears unaffected by newfounded knowledge of race. Whether the reaction is positive or negative or right or wrong, if the hobby reaction did not change with the identification of the sellers' race, it's darn tough to argue that the identification of the sellers' race changed hobby reaction.

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Old 08-21-2006, 12:15 PM
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Posted By: warshawlaw



The whole "racial" thing reminds me a bit of the Ali G Show episode where he is interviewing Andy Rooney, who has zero sense of humor. Rooney walked off the interview in a huff. Ali G (for those of you who don't know, it is Sasha Baron Cohen, a white British comedian who plays a "black" rapper/talk show host resplendent in Hilfiger or FUBU sweats, bling,a doo rag, etc. and who speaks a mishmash of hip hop and British lower class slang) starting shouting that it was "racialism" and asked Rooney if it was because he was black. Rooney sneered "you'r not black".

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Old 08-21-2006, 12:28 PM
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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Michael O'Keeffe made something up in one of his columns?

I'm shocked......shocked I tell you.

And once again he has the opportunity to interview someone from Net 54 and chooses not to.

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Old 08-21-2006, 01:08 PM
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Posted By: John S

Bottom line without getting into a long socially-oriented dissertation...it would not have mattered if the sellers were convicted thieves (black, white, orange, green, etc.) if the card was real it would have sold.

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Old 08-21-2006, 01:17 PM
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Posted By: Darrell

which came first the chicken or the egg.go back into the threads and see who brings up race first. he's is playing the race card

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Old 08-21-2006, 01:33 PM
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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Race?
If there is a race, I sure ain't winning.

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Old 08-21-2006, 03:53 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

What I think is dubious about the angle is that that eBay has cancelled literally hundreds of 'T206 Wagner' auctions over the years and PSA has rejected another few hundred T206 Wagners. If the Daily News writer did a study of the racial makeup of these card owners, he likely would come to the conclusion, "You know, maybe eBay and PSA doesn't reject cards becase of racial makeup." My guess is that 99 percent of the card owners will be white, mostly white males.

In fact, after seeing the high percentage of T206 Wagners pulled by eBay and rejected by PSA, the writer would see that the rejection of the owners' card is normal.

The thing that I have never understood about this card is why it has been singled out by the press for special attention. There have been hundreds and hundreds of cards rejected by eBay and/or called reprint by Bill Mastro. Any of these cards is no less deserving of an appearance on a television show or newspaper article.

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Old 08-21-2006, 03:58 PM
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Posted By: Ricky Y

Its amazing how this story keeps morphing and reappearing across America like the bird flu...wonder if its going to show up on Oprah..or worse yet..Geraldo...

Ricky Yo - one of the poor asians on the board from the west coast... :-P

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Old 08-21-2006, 04:22 PM
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Posted By: anthony

are there any "black" graders at PSA, SGC, or GAI ??? dont the owners of the card still refuse to have it graded by one of these legit companies???

simply amazing...

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  #30  
Old 08-21-2006, 06:11 PM
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Posted By: Mike P

This episode of COBB & EDWARDS GO TO MARKET turns on three errors by Connelly, the auctioneer and appraiser.

1. It's a mystery why Connelly appraised the card last year for $850,000. He says he relied on the evidence of authentication provided by the owners. But they have no provenance before about 1980 (to be generous). And even if the paper and printing consultants could say the card was old -- which they can't -- it wouldn't prove it is genuine. Rantanen, the creditable paper expert said in Michael Hirsley's August 16, 2006 Chicago Tribune article: "I couldn't discredit the card, but I couldn't absolutely verify its age." In short, the card needs to be authenticated by experts familiar with T206 cards before it could be properly appraised. Instead, Connelly is quoted in the Chicago Tribune as saying, "I want to find an authenticator of documents, not necessarily baseball cards, to verify this card as genuine." The man just doesn't get it. (Wish he'd look at john/z28jd's REPRINT card above.)

2. Connelly's error was compounded when about a year later he accepted the card for auction, and respecting the owners' wishes, didn't have it PSA graded -- as he did all the other cards he offered at the same time.

It is technically not a conflict of interest for an individual to be both auctioneer and appraiser, but as Warren Buffet has said, "Never ask a barber if you need a haircut." That goes double if you're the hirsute barber! Connelly's confusion about what constitutes authenticity is probably just that -- confusion. But his refusal to over-rule the owners regarding grading is not confusion. At the very least, it's bad business. More likely it's visions of sugar plums...

3. The idea that sports cards enthusiasts wouldn't give Cobb & Edwards a fair shake because of racial issues seems to have been put into play by the owners' attorney after a failed eBay outing. Of course, the owners have not been bashful about keeping the idea in the press (and on this Forum) themselves. But Real Sports and the Daily News seem to have succumbed to the race card frenzy because Connelly has. Hirsley in the Trib has this Connelly quote: "If these two guys were white, we wouldn't be having this problem."

David Smith in this thread predicted "that 2 things were going to happen; 1) the race card was going to be played and 2) somebody was going to get sued. Well, the first thing has happened. Now I am just waiting to see who gets sued."

Sooner or later Connelly will have to get the card authenticated by a recognized grader -- PSA, GAI or whoever -- which will end the owners' dreams of cashing in on the fake Wagner. Anybody want to hazard a guess at how that will play in Cincinnati? Any predictions Dave?

No matter how far you have gone on the wrong road, turn back.
-- Turkish proverb

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Old 08-21-2006, 08:03 PM
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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

Only a matter of time till Jackson and Sharpton intercede?

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Old 08-21-2006, 09:37 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

"I want to find an authenticator of documents, not necessarily baseball cards, to verify this card as genuine."

A curious statement. If someone wants a baseball card authenticated, it's always a bright idea to avoid respected authenticators who specialize in baseball cards. By the same token, if you have a serious medical problem with your foot it's always a bright idea to avoid podiatrists and get your foot checked out by a dentist or allergist ... Also note that he does not say he wants to find an authenticator of documents so as to ask the authenticator whether or not the card is genuine. He says he wants to find an authenticator of documents who will say the card is genuine.

....

My question for the auctioneer would be, if he honestly feels that the hobby respected baseball card graders are not to be trusted to authenticate a T206 baseball card, why was he auctioning all those PSA authenticated T206 cards in the same auction?

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Old 08-21-2006, 10:26 PM
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Posted By: john/z28jd

I would think after all this attention these guys have got over this card,if they do sell it,all they are asking for is trouble once the buyer has the card authenticated and it comes back as a reprint. Whoever couldve met their asking price in the past would obviously have had enough money to get some good lawyers or ACTUAL card experts to verify the card is fake,so maybe the extra exposure theyre getting is actually a good thing for them of all people.It should be painfully obvious to people by now that a real card wouldnt have so many naysayers who have never seen the card in person.

I dont know this Bob Connelly guy who ran this auction but if he had a good name beforehand,it really took a hit by this auction.I hope his motive wasnt just a big payday at the expense of an unsuspecting person who looked at his credentials and took it for face value.Luckily no one bid on the card but you really have to wonder what he was thinking

The fact that i have the same card as them should be enough proof for anyone because im way too lazy and far too poor to keep working with that potential windfall sitting on top my desk.For as little as $400k in the bank,not one of you would ever see me again and my fingers would be too fat to type within a year or so

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Old 08-22-2006, 09:10 AM
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Posted By: Morrie

I live just outside Cincinnati. Last time this thing came up and had the big article in the paper, I contacted the guy who wrote it and said that if he wanted another opinion, I had a few hundred t206 and knew the characteristics of a real vs. authentic card.

His response was pretty telling. He referred me to the two gentlemen's lawyer, since the lawyer was the official contact for anything related to the card, and indicated that he (the author of the piece) did not want to deal with anything related to the card in the future.

"Talk to the lawyer." That's enough to make me back way, way off.

I won't bother offering an opinion on the card's authenticity (and hey, who am I, anyway?). This is a case where I think the market is saying all it needs to say, and what the market is saying has absolutely nothing to do with the race of anyone involved.

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Old 08-22-2006, 09:30 AM
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Posted By: Chad

So none of you lawyers sue me, but it sounds like the one guy that's making out on this deal is the lawyer, which I'm prefectly fine with. I hope the counsel for these two schmucks bills them when he accidentally sees part of a baseball game walking through the electronics department of Sears.

--Chad

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Old 08-22-2006, 09:34 AM
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Posted By: Anonymous

good advice Morrie.

...these two guys may be smarter than we think and are just phishing for a civil rights lawsuit...no other angle/outcome about this whole fiasco makes sense to me...did they really think some unknown fool would pop up at a Binghamton strip mall and lay down 300k?

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Old 08-22-2006, 09:45 AM
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Posted By: Chad

Who the hell are they planning to sue? Are they going to have some kind of weird reverse class action suit where they sue every white person who's ever bought a baseball card? (In which case, gulp!) Are they going to sue ebay? I don't see how the can sue Connely. This is all very puzzling. I only got 38 bucks for my Hal Chase T206 on ebay last night. I can I see you bastards for not driving the price up?

--Chad

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Old 08-22-2006, 10:13 AM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: Mike P

The lawyer for Cobb and Edwards seems to have gone on to bigger fish (phish?). He hasn't figured in recent stories of their attempts to sell a preternaturally aged copy of the Honus Wagner reprint card.

The big winner in this story, so far, has been "the public," which hasn't been fooled -- yet -- thanks to decent folk who've spoken out, including some members of this Forum. In fact, there's been so much publicity about the Cobb/Edwards card they may never be able to mount another marketing campaign, unless they fake authentication.

That makes Cobb and Edwards losers, but that's a role they should be used to by now. This pair seems less and less like scaliwags and more and more like dupes of their own greed and ignorance. Too bad for them.

The big loser in this episode of the Cobb/Edwards story has been Connelly, the auctioneer, who's probably left footing the bill for bodyguards, insurance, promotion, and advertising. And wondering how to rebuild a damaged reputation.

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Old 08-22-2006, 11:37 AM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: Russ Bright

Did anyone see that there is a half page article with a picture of these cards and their card in this weeks Sports illustrated? Makes me sick to think about how much publicity these guys are getting for an obvious fake. The press is attempting to be as unbiased as possible, but this WILL NOT die...

Just think, if everyone from the board came out with "real" Honus cards... flood the market... drive the price down...

THEN the people who know what they're talking about can buy the real ones for cheap!

Awesome, and as a byproduct we could be on TV and get interviewed by the New Yorker and SI. Maybe Beckett can do a piece about the miraculous find of 2000 more T206 Wagners!

I lived in Detroit (off of 6 Mile, the Black Side of town) for about 2 months. I was the one skinny little white guy in a sea of angry black men and women. Racism is about perception. Everyone there wanted to percieve me as a threat, the chip on their shoulder made them unable to accept me for me. If you go into a situation like this with both guns blazing about "I'm Purple and I know you aren't going to trust me because i'm Purple and purple people aren't to be trusted, here's my Million dollar card" you perpetuate the hatred/racism.

It's true, people are inherently wary of people who are different (colors, shapes, sizes, sexes) Choosing to recognize or dismiss these differences is everyone's job. It's a 2 way street.

Finally, the thing that I love the most about the internet. We're all pretty anonymous here, as I have learned over tha last 14 years with some type of "web" connection. Nobody is what they seem, so I just imagine you all as really hot blonde college girls. That makes my internet experience EXTRA special (If I believe something that makes it true, right?)

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Old 08-22-2006, 11:51 AM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: Scott Gross

Russ,
You're 100% correct. As I stated in one of the other posts, these two have set race relations back 50 years.

Not to highjack the thread into a "what do you look like," but here I am:

.... mybuddy

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Old 08-22-2006, 12:06 PM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: jay behrens

you had a My Buddy doll?

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Old 08-22-2006, 12:51 PM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: Bruce Babcock

"Something's worth what someone's willing to pay for it," to quote John Cobb, one of the owners of the card in question.

According to his own criteria, his card is worthless.

The card is NOT worth $850,000 because Connelly said so.

It is difficult to see what race has to do with this.

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Old 08-22-2006, 01:02 PM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: PC

Connelly had a bunch of real, graded T206s ending on eBay at around the same time the nimrod Wagner was up. I needed a few, and would have bid on them despite the live auction/juice nonsense (which I usually avoid like the plague), but didn't because of their involvement with this fake card. So, they've already lost at least a little business and slightly higher auction returns.

I suspect this escapade will cost them more business in the long run, as a damaged reputation is hard to fix.

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Old 08-22-2006, 03:20 PM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: davidcycleback

As noted, the card's owner defined what the card is worth: "Something's worth what someone's willing to pay for it."

If no one's willing to pay $300,000 for the card, by his own denifition the card is not worth $300,000. If no one is willing to pay $20,000, by his definition the card is not worth $20,000.

By his definition, if no one is willing to pay the asking price, the asking price is higher than the card's worth.

So far the highest recorded sale of the card was when the owner payed, I beleive, $1,800.

By the owner's definition of worth, there is no demonstrated evidence that the card is worth more than $1,800, and there is every evidence that the card is not worth $300,000 or more.

The owner would have a hard time arging against this valuation, as it was defined by him.

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Old 08-22-2006, 03:47 PM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: Mike P

Strangely, Cobb's definition of the value of the card pretty well accords with the widely accepted Supreme Court definition of fair market value.

Cobb said: "Something's worth what someone's willing to pay for it."

The Supreme Court in U.S. vs Cartwright wrote: "The fair market value is the price at which the property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts."

The usual interpretation, and probably what Cobb meant, is prospective, not retrospective.

Based on current selling prices for Honus Wagner T206 reprints on eBay, the Cobb/Edwards card is worth, not the $1800 Cobb says he paid for it, but the $10-20 it would bring on eBay -- discounting its notoriety.

In "How to Put a Price on a Dream," Paul Daugherty of the Cincinnati Enquirer wrote on 5/23/2004: "He paid $1,800 for the Wagner card 20 years ago, with the promise from the owner that he could get his money back if he couldn't sell it."

Maybe it's time to cash in on that promise?



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Old 08-22-2006, 04:07 PM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: Richard Simon

Does anyone believe this guy paid $1800 for the card?
I would love to see the receipt for that purchase.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
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No retreat baby, no surrender.
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Old 08-22-2006, 04:26 PM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: Bruce Babcock

The owners note that they have spent "thousands of hours" in researching their card.

A google search of T206 Wagner + fake took me 0.43 seconds. The third item listed was our own cycleback's article on "Judging the Authenticity of Early Baseball Cards."

Five minutes spent reading this article . . .

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Old 08-22-2006, 05:18 PM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: davidcycleback

"He paid $1,800 for the Wagner card 20 years ago, with the promise from the owner that he could get his money back if he couldn't sell it."

The above sale price would be about $1,795 too high and for a reprint and about $30,000 (+/-) too low for a genuine T206 Wagner. The question would then be did the original seller think he was selling a reprint or a genuine T206 Honus Wagner, as the $1,800 sales doesn't match either.

There's an old Chinese proverb:

"Why would a baseball card dealer sell you a $50,000 baseball card for $1,000? Because the card isn't worth $50,000."

There's was a variation on the same proverb:

"Why did the knowledgeable baseball card dealer sell a card worth $10,000 for $1,000? Because the card was worth $100."

And there's a third, and last, variation:

"How can someone sell Babe Ruth autographed baseballs for only $150 each? If you can't answer that, you shouldn't collect autographs."

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Old 08-22-2006, 05:44 PM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: Mike P

"The above sale price [$1800] would be about $1,795 too high for a reprint and about $30,000 too low for a genuine T206 Wagner."

It's a Goldilocks price. Not too high, not too low, just right for a tale told by novices.

No one familiar with the hobby would believe it.

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Old 08-22-2006, 06:41 PM
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Default "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"

Posted By: Aaron


"Does anyone believe this guy paid $1800 for the card?
I would love to see the receipt for that purchase."

To me this is the best part of their story. The guy claims to know nothing about cards, yet knew enough to fork over $1,800 for it in the mid-80's (he doesn't remember the name of the dealer or the exact year of the transaction). The idea that he would spend $1,800 for ANY card when the rest of his collection appears to be a mish-mash of worthless junk form a myriad of collectibles fields strains credulity.

Then he claims to have held on to the card for several years (so apparently he knew enough to buy the card for $1,800, but not enough to know that the card was worth hundreds of thousands more or that he should bother trying to sell it for a huge profit) until he saw a TV piece on Gretzky & McNall and the big sale of the card for over $500k. (That's when he claims to have realized, "I have that card".)

Then things get really interesting: Once they realize they have such a valuable card, they sit on for almost a decade. A decade! Then, of course, we join our heroes in their fight to prove the validity of their card.

Now, compare that above to the scenario where the lawyer whose practice is about 5 miles from where the two guys live says there was a break-in at his practice where the same "novelty" Wagner card was stolen. And then just a few weeks later, these guys start trying to sell the card.

Which one sounds more plausible?

My speculation is this: Someone stole the card from the lawyer and promptly sold it to these guys for $1,800 -- and these guys knew about the card and figured they were the ones making out like bandits. When they went to sell it, they realized they may been ripped off and just can't come to terms with that (or the dashing of their "get-rich-quick" dreams).

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