What are you top 5 20th century boxing cards?

[david_l]

Them's some good looking hats!

Out of curiosity, was there any 19th Century Peter Jackson cards produced? I have your book but don't remember it being mentioned.

Awesome stuff everyone. This thread has turned into a nice show and tell.

[Exhibitman]

19th Century Jackson Cards:

N310 Mayo would be the easiest to find and afford. There is an N338 SF Hess. And the N566 Newsboy cabinets. And N266 Jackson-Slavin.

[Andy Baran]

There is also an N174 Old Judge produced in Australia. There are 2 variations listed of the SF Hess. Does anyone know what the difference between the 2 cards is?

[Exhibitman]

I can't believe I forgot that; I used to have an N174 Jackson.

[david_l]

Really cool. Thanks so much for the info. I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for one of those issues. There's a few 19th Century cards I've been slowly hunting for in my price range. I didn't realize that Jackson was so prominent in that era's cards.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[butcher354435]

Andy,

The variation for the SF Hess Jackson is the listing of his name. One version has his name listed on the bottom border of the card and the 2nd version has his name listed on the bottom border of the card and the bottom of the photo.

I don't have access to my cards right now or I would post pictures of the 2 versions.

[david_l]

Originally Posted by david_l

Them's some good looking hats!

Out of curiosity, was there any 19th Century Peter Jackson cards produced? I have your book but don't remember it being mentioned.

Awesome stuff everyone. This thread has turned into a nice show and tell.

lol. Sorry. I have the 2008 version of your book and I noticed that you mention Jackson a LOT. I just managed to retain none of the info.

[Dpeck100]

The Mike Tyson 1986 Panini Supersport Italian deserves consideration. It is arguably the most followed boxing sticker and while it isn't exactly rare it is Kid Dynamite from 1985. Moments after Tyson bloodies up Sammy Scaff on December 6th of that year he is interviewed and captured for this image. The UK version came out in 1987 and features images from the Australian Open from that January so there is no disputing which is the rookie of Mike Tyson.

My generation grew up playing Mike Tyson's Punch Out and arguing with elders that he is the best ever.

I think of the Tyson Italian similar to the 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan. If you are trying to determine the top basketball cards there are plenty to choose from that are more rare and perhaps more valuable. But popularity counts for something and so it should at least be considered for the list. Top 10 easily.

[Exhibitman]

I wouldn't put the Tyson in the top 10 cards and certainly not the top five, unless you are starting the list in 1980. As to post-1980 cards I would rank it up there as one of the top five (in date order):

1986 Panini Tyson
1986 Brown's Holyfield
1988 Panini Julio Cesar Chavez
1997 Brown's Mayweather
1999 World Boxing Magazine (Japan) Manny Pacquiao

If we push the start date back to the 1970s I think he'd probably be top 5 (though I could see an argument for one or more Ali cards displacing one or more of these guys):

1973 Panini Roberto Duran
1986 Panini Tyson
1986 Brown's Holyfield
1997 Brown's Mayweather
1999 World Boxing Magazine (Japan) Manny Pacquiao

But if we push it back beyond 1970 Tyson drops off the list of even the most significant cards of heavyweights, even if we limit it to one card per fighter:

E125 Johnson (or T229, T227, etc.)
1921 Romeo y Julieta Jack Dempsey
1935 JA Pattreiouex Sport Celebrities Joe Louis
1951 Ringside Rocky Marciano
1960 Hemmets Cassius Clay (or any of a number of other early Clay cards)

If you add in all of the other weight classes and add in multiple cards of fighters, Tyson is nowhere near the top ten.

As for comparisons with Jordan, I don't buy it. Jordan is on the short list of greatest players of all time. Tyson is not even close to Jordan-esque range even among heavyweights. The IBRO (2005) ranks the heavies as follows:

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
James J. Jeffries
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Harry Wills
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons

Tyson doesn't have the resume. He didn't face anything like the guys around in the 1970s; but setting aside that era as a special one, he also did squat against the best of his era. On the way up he beat a bunch of bums, blown up cruiserweights, and an elderly Larry Holmes. Then he got blasted out by Buster Douglas? He didn't face Bowe. After he did his rape time he fought bums and tomato cans before losing to Holyfield and Lewis. He wasn't anywhere near as mentally and physically tough as the prewar fighters. When he was in the deep $hit with Holyfield he melted down rather that gut it out. Dempsey and Louis would have ripped him to pieces, Johnson would have taken an easy decision from him, and Frazier and Marciano would have ruined him permanently as a fighter because they fought the same way he did but with much bigger balls; they would have humiliated him. Frankly, I don't think he was blood and guts enough to beat any of the guys above him on that list, except perhaps for Liston, who was a similarly flawed individual and might have been spooked by Tyson's shtick. That said, he was a legit HOFer and he had a puncher's chance with anyone, same as every elite heavyweight does.

[Dpeck100]

I don't profess to know a fraction of what you know about boxing or boxing cards/stickers. That said Mike Tyson is Mike Tyson. The most deadly fighter my generation has ever witnessed. Purest like you have always bashed Tyson and always will. Casual boxing fans like me and millions more are enamored with his accomplishments in the ring.

In terms of the sticker. A copy sold for $5,100 on EBAY. There aren't many boxing cards or stickers that ever have. The most famous I am aware of is the Leaf Graziano and obviously it isn't in that realm but popular none the less.

The comparison to Jordan isn't suggesting he is the necessarily the greatest of all time but more that a modern card that has a large population is the most liquid basketball card that exists. Actually the most liquid trading card that exists. There are plenty of Tyson's but because of his popularity it is still bringing great money and isn't close to as rare as some on the list.

I think a modern fighter should be featured in the top ten for sure and there is no question in my mind it should be Tyson.

[Exhibitman]

I don't have anything against Tyson, David. As I said, he was a worthy HOF selection and is a top 15 heavyweight. However, when viewed objectively, he is not a top-ten heavy for the reasons I stated. He could have been better if he'd been a better person, perhaps, but when gut-checked he was found wanting. He lost three prime years because he raped a woman and got his ass kicked by the two best fighters of his generation. He doesn't even measure up favorably in head to head battles with his elite contemporaries. That doesn't make me or the many other researchers who've ranked him "purists", just objective analysts. My favorite of the modern era is Lennox Lewis: I think he was better than Tyson but I wouldn't rank him with Ali or Dempsey or Johnson.

Now as far as the cards go, again, I am trying to be objective. I don't have any stake in this list, financial or otherwise. I have the modern cards as a collector but that's about where it ends for me; I don't have multiple copies of them sitting around so I have no reason to build a market for them, and I don't want more of them so I don't have any reason to tear down a market for them. You are correct that there is a PSA 10 Tyson that allegedly sold for $5,100 last year. Was it your purchase, because I see that you posted one in another thread about Tyson cards that you started last December? If not, do you know if it was an actual sale? Because from where I am sitting it looks very much like a Probstein/PWCC fake sale during the run-up. The prior sale was $1324.99; the next reported sales were $2650, $1927, and $2125. All strong sales to be sure, but not even close to top ten all time. For example, just taking Heritage's past results:

1948 Leaf Graziano: $29,875.00
E125 Jeffries: $19,120.00
T226 Johnson: $19,120.00
N167 Smith: $8,962.50
N386 Sullivan: $6,572.50
E125 Johnson: $5,975.00

I also know of multiple private sales in excess of $5,000 for individual cards and many more above $2,500.

I also don't operate on the paradigm that there 'should' be a modern fighter on the list. That is not a logical argument. It is a form of logical fallacy called a moralistic fallacy. Plus I am old enough to consider Ali a modern fighter

It is a nice and significant card, no doubt about that--I said it is one of the top five cards of the last 35 years--but viewed objectively and in context of all boxing cards I don't think it is the stuff dreams are made of.

[Dpeck100]

I purchased my copy from a member on CU a few years ago. The Tyson that sold was indeed sold. I know the person who sent it to PWCC.

Actually the Probstein "fake sale" wasn't so fake. The same person who sold the Italian copy through PWCC bought that UK back from Rick's consignor for $5,600. The auction was clearly shilled but a different buyer did indeed buy it and as far as I know still owns it. Recent sales have been closer to 2k for the UK back as more participants I believe realize it isn't the actual rookie.

I have a good number of the Tyson stickers so in some ways I am biased but I can tell you the reaction when people see them in person is quite strong and I think that is why so many collectors over the past few years have been snatching them up.