Gehrig auto'd pic on Craigslist MKE

[horzverti]

Wow, with a genuine ACE COA!!! Thought you guys would like this one.

I wonder if Priddy would also pass a photo copy of this as authentic?

Here it is:

VINTAGE LOU GEHRIG AUTOGRAPHED ASSOCIATED PRESS 1940 WIRE PHOTO ~ COA - $1000 (SE WI)

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/clt/3266695491.html

[isaac2004]

Originally Posted by horzverti

Wow, with a genuine ACE COA!!! Thought you guys would like this one.

I wonder if Priddy would also pass a photo copy of this as authentic?

Here it is:

VINTAGE LOU GEHRIG AUTOGRAPHED ASSOCIATED PRESS 1940 WIRE PHOTO ~ COA - $1000 (SE WI)

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/clt/3266695491.html

I live in MKE as well, I love how the seller talks about how cheap it is to certify... ROFL

[daves_resale_shop]

Almost certain this one was on ebay a few months back (and lifted)

[horzverti]

It probably was removed from eBay...I believe they ban any items with an ACE cert.

[Michael B]

I recall this original posting, but at the time I was not a member. I believe it was either Mr. Simon or Mr. Stinson who opined that they looked at the overall item before looking at the signature. The link on this post no longer works, but the item is still listed on Craig'slist Milwaukee.

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/sear...rig&catAbb=sss

I have mentioned in several other postings that my knowledge of Baseball HOF signatures is limited. I got quite a few in person in the 1980's, but I no longer collect them. That being said, I can date this Gehrig forgery with failry good accuracy. It was signed in 2011 or 2012, at the outer edge, possibly late 2010. If you look on the back of the photo, which was included with the original posting and maybe the original Craigslist posting, you will see a small white sticker. This sticker tells me that this photo is from the archives of the Baltimore Sun and was sold by Jay Parrino (JPthemint, Tribunephotos and other names on ebay). This is one of his inventory stickers that he uses for each of the photos that he sells out of one of the newspaper archives he purchased (MC - The Morning Call, CT - Chicago Tribune, BS - Baltimore Sun). John Rogers also uses these inventory stickers for all of the photos he sells out of Arkansas and Tennessee. By seeing this sticker I knew it was a forgery without studying the signature. I leave that to all of you. I guess no one has fallen for this rectums listing as it has been reduced to $800. Noticing these small things is similar to what I do in my job doing legal research. You've got to love it!!

Cheers,

Michael

Michael

[David Atkatz]

It's also "signed" in ballpoint. Gehrig stopped signing in 1939--and it's an early-thirties style signature--about a decade before ballpoint's introduction.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by david atkatz

it's also "signed" in ballpoint. Gehrig stopped signing in 1939--and it's an early-thirties style signature--about a decade before ballpoint's introduction.

nice

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Michael B

I recall this original posting, but at the time I was not a member. I believe it was either Mr. Simon or Mr. Stinson who opined that they looked at the overall item before looking at the signature. The link on this post no longer works, but the item is still listed on Craig'slist Milwaukee.

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/sear...rig&catAbb=sss

I have mentioned in several other postings that my knowledge of Baseball HOF signatures is limited. I got quite a few in person in the 1980's, but I no longer collect them. That being said, I can date this Gehrig forgery with failry good accuracy. It was signed in 2011 or 2012, at the outer edge, possibly late 2010. If you look on the back of the photo, which was included with the original posting and maybe the original Craigslist posting, you will see a small white sticker. This sticker tells me that this photo is from the archives of the Baltimore Sun and was sold by Jay Parrino (JPthemint, Tribunephotos and other names on ebay). This is one of his inventory stickers that he uses for each of the photos that he sells out of one of the newspaper archives he purchased (MC - The Morning Call, CT - Chicago Tribune, BS - Baltimore Sun). John Rogers also uses these inventory stickers for all of the photos he sells out of Arkansas and Tennessee. By seeing this sticker I knew it was a forgery without studying the signature. I leave that to all of you. I guess no one has fallen for this rectums listing as it has been reduced to $800. Noticing these small things is similar to what I do in my job doing legal research. You've got to love it!!

Cheers,

Michael

Michael

Excellent observations and insights , So you see before you even GET to looking at the autograph there are at least three strong factors to rule it out thats why cuts are so perilous , just a signature and old paper. And in reality the actual signature itself on the photo is pretty darn close, if you exclude all the other intangibles that make it impossible for Gehrig to have signed it
____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[GrayGhost]

Fascinating info guys. the Ball point and Priddy stuck out for me. Curious, the Baltimore sticker means its no good for what reason? , Aside from the other points.

[Michael B]

I want to reply to two of the postings.

1. I don't think it is ballpoint pen. I received a j.peg photo of just the signature and was able to zoom in and out with the scroll wheel on my mouse. It looks like light fountain pen. What looks like highlights that would make it appear to be the light glare on ballpoint ink seems to be where they scratched the emulsion of the photo. See the attached image. You can see the separation of the ink on the pen nib in the 'G' and 'h' in the last name. Also, fountain pens can make impressions in photos much like ballpoints.

2. This photo was in the archives of the Baltimore Sun and it arrived there in 1940 as shown by the date stamp. This type of stamp has two functions:
a) The date the newspaper photo library receive the photo originallly
b) The date the photo was used by the newspaper.

You may find a photo with one date stamp and on occasion a photo will have multiple date stamps showing the use of the photo, especially a popular one, over a period of time. I have an original Jesse Owens photo shot at the 1936 Olympics that has date stamps from 1936 through 1986. It was most common for a newspaper to stamp it upon original receipt. Many of the 3000+ original photos in my personal collection have date stamps that correspond with a time period near the date of the event in the photo.

That being said, it is highly unlikely that any news organization would have or distribute an original signed photo like this to a newspaper. It makes no sense. Additionally, knowing that Jay Parrino has dealt in may high end and valuable items, it is highly unlikely he would dump a signed Lou Gehrig on ebay. He gained his reputation and wealth dealing in rare stamps and coins.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Fascinating info guys. the Ball point and Priddy stuck out for me. Curious, the Baltimore sticker means its no good for what reason? , Aside from the other points.

I did not fully answer your question about the Baltimore Sun sticker in my previous post. After Jay Parrino purchased the archives of the Baltimore Sun he attached one of these inventory stickers on each photo that he sold on ebay. This would mean that one of his employess would have looked at the front of the photo, entered the description in some inventory control program and attached the white sticker as a corresponding number. Would they have missed an obvious signature on the front of the photo? Not likely. I hope this is a reasonable explanation. I have looked at thousands upon thousands of press photos in person, right from the newspapers, over the last 25+ years and have never seen a signed photo. They may exist, but I have not seen one.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Michael B

I want to reply to two of the postings.

1. I don't think it is ballpoint pen. I received a j.peg photo of just the signature and was able to zoom in and out with the scroll wheel on my mouse. It looks like light fountain pen. What looks like highlights that would make it appear to be the light glare on ballpoint ink seems to be where they scratched the emulsion of the photo. See the attached image. You can see the separation of the ink on the pen nib in the 'G' and 'h' in the last name. Also, fountain pens can make impressions in photos much like ballpoints

Actually, they don't. If one pressed hard enough with a fountain pen to make the impression above, it would have split the nib. Anyone who is used to a fountain pen--as Gehrig certainly was, since he died before ballpoints were introduced--knows not to press hard.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by Michael B

I did not fully answer your question about the Baltimore Sun sticker in my previous post. After Jay Parrino purchased the archives of the Baltimore Sun he attached one of these inventory stickers on each photo that he sold on ebay. This would mean that one of his employess would have looked at the front of the photo, entered the description in some inventory control program and attached the white sticker as a corresponding number. Would they have missed an obvious signature on the front of the photo? Not likely. I hope this is a reasonable explanation. I have looked at thousands upon thousands of press photos in person, right from the newspapers, over the last 25+ years and have never seen a signed photo. They may exist, but I have not seen one.

Of course that makes sense. It could have been missed, but yes, I wouldn't guess it to be too likely.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Actually, they don't. If one pressed hard enough with a fountain pen to make the impression above, it would have split the nib. Anyone who is used to a fountain pen--as Gehrig certainly was, since he died before ballpoints were introduced--knows not to press hard.

Actually, they do. Since it is pressure on the nib that causes the flow of ink, you would need to press down to get any ink flow. Hold a fountain pen by the thumb and forefinger at the top and try to write. You may get some ink flow, but not consistently. This is the same with any writing instrument, whether a pencil, ballpoint or even sharpie. Other points to consider are whether the person is left handed, how are they holding the pen and is the nib damaged.

A person writing crook left handed draws the pen across the writing surface differently from a right handed person.

You do not need both halves of the nib ball to be touching the surface for it to write. The flow would be affected, but it would still work.

The nib end is flexible. That flexibility, though barely negligible, is what allows for a smooth flow of ink no matter the hand pressure of the writer. The nibs are designed to work for all people and not customized. Also, the two halves of the nib can be separated by less than ½ of a millimeter and still work. This could also cause the scratching of the emulsion of a photo. Have you ever heard the expression ‘scratch out a sentence’? Think of the sound a fountain pen makes on good paper - scratching.

I have attached several images. The first is a flatbed scan of the signature of 1928 Olympic gold medalist Ray Barbuti signed around 1928. Clearly a fountain pen signature. The next few show the same signature at an angle where I have purposely added lamp glare. You can see glare off of the ink which makes it look like ballpoint pen ink, but is clearly not. You can also see the indentation into the photo and the separation of the nib on the bottom of the ‘y’. At the top of the ‘R’ in Ray and the ‘B’ in Barbuti there is also consistent separation of the nib. I have attached an enhanced image of those two letters to show this. I believe this refutes your contention.

Cheers,
Michael

[David Atkatz]

You are correct, Michael.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

You are correct, Michael.

Thank you. I appreciate civil intellectual discourse. I believe that with open eyes and open minds we all learn from each other. I learn quite a bit from the contributions of the members.

[deep2deep]

What do you think about this one I have? Story is it was won at a Christmas Bazaar in New Hampshire, at the South Sutton Community Center in 1937 or 1938. Supposedly donated by Willie, West & McGinty a known act in New York at the time. Signed by Lou Gehrig "Compliments Lou Gehrig" also signed by Robert "Red" Rolfe "Sincerely Robert "Red" Rolfe. Do you believe this is or could be authentic.