Top 20 high end auctions Probstein123

[CMIZ5290]

Holy crap, these cards still have 5 days left... 1955 Topps Clemente rookie PSA 7 $5500, 1981 Topps Montana rookie PSA 10 $12k, 1986 Fleer Jordan PSA 9 $3200, 1957 Topps Bart Starr PSA 8 $7300...Damn, I'm in the wrong business...

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

[LKeeler]

Wow. _***o(1225) sure got busy bidding almost immediately after S***2(351)'s initial bid and things went flying from there on ol' Bart!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Big bidder on PWCC high end cards too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by LKeeler

Wow. _***o(1225) sure got busy bidding almost immediately after S***2(351)'s initial bid and things went flying from there on ol' Bart!

Funny how he stopped short once his high bid was only a few dollars below the leader. Setting him up for later perhaps.

[calvindog]

Probstein can't let PWCC get away with all the obvious fraud on ebay -- he's stepping up his game.

By the way, in about 5 minutes this morning Peter sent me links of bidding activity to about 10 high end PWCC cards -- all were obviously being shilled with sometimes the top 7 bidders bidding on PWCC lots over 40% of the time (and sometimes up to 90%). Is it possibly in Brent's DNA to take a few minutes each day and block the very obvious crooks who are bidding in his auctions?

[CMIZ5290]

Jeff L. and Peter S. have made comments to this being illegal and fraudulant. If so, why in the world would Ebay not be held accountable as well as the seller? Is Ebay that huge?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Probstein can't let PWCC get away with all the obvious fraud on ebay -- he's stepping up his game.

By the way, in about 5 minutes this morning Peter sent me links of bidding activity to about 10 high end PWCC cards -- all were obviously being shilled with sometimes the top 7 bidders bidding on PWCC lots over 40% of the time (and sometimes up to 90%). Is it possibly in Brent's DNA to take a few minutes each day and block the very obvious crooks who are bidding in his auctions?

Or maybe he just has a loyal following.

Seriously, in the context of sets being offered, high bid percentages with the seller don't look suspicious. But when it's cards from all walks of life whose only common denominator is high grade and high dollar value, and it happens auction after auction after auction, well, you be the judge.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Jeff L. and Peter S. have made comments to this being illegal and fraudulant. If so, why in the world would Ebay not be held accountable as well as the seller? Is Ebay that huge?

Kevin PWCC ADMITTED to doing it during 2009-10, that is, allowing a consignor to place a hidden reserve. Clear violation of ebay rules. Also his invoices through ebay instructed buyers how to avoid California sales tax by paying by check or money order. Perhaps ebay was unaware? I don't know.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kevin he ADMITTED to doing it during 2009-10, that is, allowing a consignor to place a hidden reserve. Clear violation of ebay rules. Also his invoices through ebay instructed buyers how to avoid California sales tax by paying by check or money order. Perhaps ebay was unaware? I don't know.

Peter, I was actually referring to Probstein....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Peter, I was actually referring to Probstein....

My mistake then, I was referring to PWCC.

[pokerplyr80]

I don't think they'll end up going a whole lot higher than they're at now. Those cards are all worth what they're at though.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I don't think they'll end up going a whole lot higher than they're at now. Those cards are all worth what they're at though.

nevermind...

[Brian Van Horn]

What would be interesting would be a study of PWCC and Probstein's results followed by when a buyer would resell the card. Also, add in the relistings of both PWCC and Probstein a month or two later and figure in those results. There would be overlap between these stats.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Probstein can't let PWCC get away with all the obvious fraud on ebay -- he's stepping up his game.

By the way, in about 5 minutes this morning Peter sent me links of bidding activity to about 10 high end PWCC cards -- all were obviously being shilled with sometimes the top 7 bidders bidding on PWCC lots over 40% of the time (and sometimes up to 90%). Is it possibly in Brent's DNA to take a few minutes each day and block the very obvious crooks who are bidding in his auctions?

I have always assumed they work together because of the way the same exact card(s) that are shilled tend to go back and forth between them. Also the bidding history of some accounts that between the 2 are 90%+ of their bid activity.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have always assumed they work together because of the way the same exact card(s) that are shilled tend to go back and forth between them. Also the bidding history of some accounts that between the 2 are 90%+ of their bid activity.

Wow, this is something I dont think has ever come forward before now.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I don't think they'll end up going a whole lot higher than they're at now. Those cards are all worth what they're at though.

Certain HOF rookies are off the charts these days for whatever reason, and it's hard to understand because for the most part they are not difficult to find even in high grade. And it's an old discussion, but paying 12K for a Montana card that but for the flip is fungible with a $500 9? Well, to each his own.

[MetsBaseball1973]

For what it might possibly be worth, which is probably somewhere around zero, I have a very high bidding percentage on PWCC and Probstein at various times.......and yet I am not a shill. A moron at times, for sure, for not pulling the trigger on great cards I later regret passing on....but not a shill. Just offering that bidding percentage is but one indicator and not ironclad proof that a bidder is shady.

[pokerplyr80]

These may be shilled, or it could just be a couple of collectors bidding close to what the card is worth and then waiting until right before the end for a last minute snipe. The pattern does look suspicious but when I'm watching an auction I sometimes put in a bid like that so I can see it easier on the my ebay screen vs just watching it.

As for the PSA 10 vs 9 debate there seem to be plenty of people willing to pay a huge premium because of the scarcity. You can argue it's artificial but some cards the population can be a anywhere from a 5-1 difference to 50-1 or more. I don't personally own any high end PSA 10s but they do seem to be good investments.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are 80 PSA 10 Montana rookies. Obviously there is a sheetload more 9s, but the point is that it is not even close to being a rare card. And, outside the holder, fungible. Will those artificial values last? Who knows.

[pokerplyr80]

I wouldn't pay 12-15k for one unless my net worth was substantially higher but there appears to be no shortage of people who are willing. My Montana RC is just a psa 8 because I didn't feel like paying for a 9 at the time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I wouldn't pay 12-15k for one unless my net worth was substantially higher but there appears to be no shortage of people who are willing. My Montana RC is just a psa 8 because I didn't feel like paying for a 9 at the time.

When I saw a Seaver rookie bump from an 8 to a 9 and then to a 10, that pretty much made me a cynic about flips. That, and I guy I knew who used to submit large quantities of Jordan 9s at a show people attended for the sole purpose of getting bumps and always got back a reasonable number of 10s. Fungible. That, and the time PSA's then-president came up to a dealer I knew on a slow Sunday afternoon at a show and asked if he needed anything, and promptly brought back several major cards in higher grade holders. That and.... I could go on.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

When I saw a Seaver rookie bump from an 8 to a 9 and then to a 10, that pretty much made me a cynic about flips. That, and I guy I knew who used to submit large quantities of Jordan 9s at a show people attended for the sole purpose of getting bumps and always got back a reasonable number of 10s. Fungible.

It's definitely a fine line but for an 8 to get a bump to a 10 shows there's a major flaw in the process. That's about a 10k swing on the Jordan rc right now, maybe I'm in the wrong business. With my luck though I'd end up damaging the card trying to crack it out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Back then you didn't even have to crack them out. Just hand them in at the show. I don't think that happens any more, but it's still arbitrary and you can't convince me that for some mega submitters there is not an element of preferential treatment.

[Touch'EmAll]

And then there is a really nice 1921 Walter Johnson Exhibit PSA 5 on ebay right now for a mere $459. How many of these are out there? One of the greatest pitchers of all time and true vintage. I just don't get it. Jeez, I already have the '21 Johnson, but am thinking hard about pulling trigger. I just don't get it.

[pokerplyr80]

Yea like I always see Leon say the demand side of the demand vs supply curve is far more important in card collecting. And right now there is a high demand for high grade PSA HOF rookies. Maybe it's the competitive side of collectors and the registry driving up the prices.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And regarding the Johnson, as a friend of mine says, the only thing lower than the supply is the demand. About as nice as I have seen a 21 Exhibit.