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  #1  
Old 03-17-2007, 05:11 PM
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Default T206 Wagner-Theory

Posted By: Dave Hornish

I seem to be in an SCD frame of mind this week. There is an auction ad for the Steve Myland collection in the current issue and one of offered items is a 1909 Honus Wagner Cigar label (actually three different ones). The round and rectangular versions have Honus' likeness on them and it resembles the famous Carl Horner image that was the basis for so many photos of Wagner. I'm sure many of you have seen these before.

This got me thinking (always dangerous) along two lines:

1) Honus did not object to tobacco use, only cigarettes (since he was hawking cigars). Or,

2) It was not a problem with Honus but rather a problem with the rights to the Horner image that caused his T206 card to be pulled. It's possible this could explain Plank's yanking as well. I am not sure if the Plank portrait is by Horner but no matter-someone owned the copyright to it. Maybe it took the copyright holder or the licensee time to figure out what was going on before demanding ATC withdraw the card(s).

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Dave

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Old 03-17-2007, 05:28 PM
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Default T206 Wagner-Theory

Posted By: boxingcardman

I always theorized that he refused the offer to use his likeness for financial reasons but couched it in other terms so as to not appear to be greedy. Being crass about publicity rights wasn't really in vogue until a generation later.

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  #3  
Old 03-17-2007, 05:29 PM
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Default T206 Wagner-Theory

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

DAVE

Wagner loved cigars all his life. The 1955 Pirates Yearbook has a picture of him with a lit cigar
in his hand.


Regarding Eddie Plank, very recently we had a lengthy Thread on the theory of his T206 card.

Plank theory link......

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1166484149/My+T206+Plank+theory

TED Z

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Old 03-17-2007, 05:31 PM
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Default T206 Wagner-Theory

Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Also, I love Honus' 1949 Leaf card, it pictures Honus as a coach with a big chaw of tobacco in his mouth.

Peter

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  #5  
Old 03-17-2007, 06:22 PM
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Default T206 Wagner-Theory

Posted By: Mark L

As I understand it, the Wagner family explained that he objected to the card because he did not want kids buying cigarettes to get his picture. This claim is consistent with a contemporary article cited in Scott Readerís erudite work on the t206: There is Oct. 12, 1912 Sporting News article which says that Wagner asked the ATC to withdraw the card because ďhe did not care to have his picture in a package of cigarettes." There is a further anecdote floating around that that Wagner reimbursed Pirate secretary John Gruber ten bucks for the money that Gruber had made (but subsequently lost) selling Wagnerís photo to the ATC. Iíve heard that Gruber framed the check. (don't know why he would). Anyway, I donít see anything in this general account that is manifestly untenable. What evidence do we have against it? It is true that Wagner smoked cigars. Maybe he was even willing to put his picture on a cigar band. Of course, he chewed tobacco. But the account given out by the Wagner family doesnít claim that he was anti-tobacco but only that he didnít like seeing kids chasing baseball cards in every pack of Piedmonts. And since he was the biggest star in baseball from 1909-11, he might have imagined that kids were buying packs for his card in particular. If Wagner were famous for being a miser or a shrewd businessman, I would find the cynicism a little more reasonable. But címon, he was famous for being friendly with kids. Doesnít someone say in Glory of Their Times that after a Pirate game Wagner could be sometimes be found playing baseball with the neighborhood kids? Anyway, I'd like to see the incriminating evidence, the smoking gun, as it were, that indicates that the old story is unlikely.

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Old 03-17-2007, 08:30 PM
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Default T206 Wagner-Theory

Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

I think Mark L says it very well, and I agree. Furthermore, if the reason he doesn't appear in T-card issues is because he wasn't offered enough money, one would think it plausible he would have had the same problem with candy card issuers, yet he appears in E-card issues. Bottom line is I guess we'll never know for sure, but if I was a betting man I would put my money on the theory that he simply didn't want his image to promote children to smoke.

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Old 03-17-2007, 09:48 PM
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Default T206 Wagner-Theory

Posted By: JimB

I agree with Mark and Corey.
JimB

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Old 03-17-2007, 11:18 PM
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Default T206 Wagner-Theory

Posted By: bob beyerle

Wagner Did NOT want to promote tobacco use to kids period. Money was no issue. The amounts talked about are negligible to what he gave away on a regular basis. I drink beer but that doesn't mean I want my image used to promote alcohol use to kids. Why all the Wagner E cards? Did the candy companies have more cash to give the "greedy" Wagner? People who think it was a money issue are projecting their own greed and selfishness on one of the most selfless superstars in American Sports history. Go read a few books before stating your guesses and opinions.

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Old 03-17-2007, 11:28 PM
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Default T206 Wagner-Theory

Posted By: Dave Hornish

Thanks Ted Z, I indeed read the Plank thread when it was running and found it very informative. I guess I've been mulling it ever since. I find Wagner and Plank in T206 to be curiouser and curiouser and a couple of others less so but still interesting. The mystery part is great: possible deception on the non Sweet Cap poses for Plank and Wagner violates the primacy of Piedmont theory, which I subscribe to (as do the St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara, of course). Could Plank have replaced Wagner on whatever sheet Honus was originally on before being pulled as well? Why did this even matter to the ATC and American Litho? Great stuff, these questions.

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Old 03-18-2007, 09:29 AM
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Default T206 Wagner-Theory

Posted By: MVSNYC

"The mystery part is great: possible deception on the non Sweet Cap poses for Plank and Wagner violates the primacy of Piedmont theory, which I subscribe to (as do the St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara, of course)."

dave- can you clarify/expand on this sentence, it looses me a little bit.

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