New SGC grading fees

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Section103

Everybody in the hobby will turn a blind eye to this because so many chase grades and because - hey, we can be the beneficiary as well - but ultimately the situation you just described is a text book definition of conflict of interest.

Please elaborate. The person I am referencing is just a collector who was fortunate enough to buy a card they felt was under graded and paid money to have PSA look at it again. It worked out in this case. There are plenty of cards that get sent in and returned with the money kept.

[Section103]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Please elaborate. The person I am referencing is just a collector who was fortunate enough to buy a card they felt was under graded and paid money to have PSA look at it again. It worked out in this case. There are plenty of cards that get sent in and returned with the money kept.

Its quite simple. PSA graded a previous 9 as currently 10. As such, they gained financially by being able to charge more than if it had stayed a 9. They had clear, direct financial incentive to increase the grade and benefitted monetarily because of it. The grade may or may not have been warranted - but it matters not in the least. The conflict of interest is there.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Section103

Its quite simple. PSA graded a previous 9 as currently 10. As such, they gained financially by being able to charge more than if it had stayed a 9. They had clear, direct financial incentive to increase the grade and benefitted monetarily because of it. The grade may or may not have been warranted - but it matters not in the least. The conflict of interest is there.

Agreed!! Even more so in the fact, that if you were to cover up the flips, I doubt very seriously you can spot out a '9' vs a '10'.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Agreed!! Even more so in the fact, that if you were to cover up the flips, I doubt very seriously you can spot out a '9' vs a '10'.

And this is where the grading industry starts to stink. We're talking minuscule details that lead to a card being a 10 instead of a 9, and vice versa. You can't tell me those minuscule details warrant the $$$ asked of the customer, even if the card being a 10 jumps the value of it astronomically.

I will say this, though. If they are combining turn-around time with value, it ultimately makes sense to charge more. As previously stated by others in this thread, there is more risk in handling a more expensive card. However, I think the ball is dropped from a customer service/integrity stand point when A) the customer is asked to pay up front, and B) when a card has a 2-3 grade increase, the customer is asked to pay more. Regarding "A", what person in their right mind would pay someone up front for a service? I wouldn't even recommend that if you're working with a family member, let alone a stranger. In regards to "B", I think a system should be developed to have the customer provide their grade assumption of each card. If the card comes back with a 1-2 grade difference, they should not be asked to pay more. But if there's an obnoxious attempt to screw over the company, yeah, pay more. Forgive me if such a system is already in place, as I have never submitted a card for grading, just my thoughts.

[BobC]

Leon,

I knew you weren't defending the practice, which is why I apologized up front in case you thought i was responding specifically to what you said. You are also correct in that what the TPGs are doing is not illegal. As with being a CPA, if I do a job and charge a contingent fee to someone, I could potentially be brought up before the Accountancy Board of whatever state I am in and lose my license to practice for doing that. I could also be sued if something goes wrong or bad in a deal that then relied upon my opinion.

CPAs self-regulate and have to undergo peer review every so often to keep and maintain our licenses to practice, as we supposedly adhere to one, common set of rules that all practicing CPAs are supposed to follow. This is where the TPGs really differ, they can all make up their own rules and grading criteria however they want, because no one else forces them to follow anything else. Wouldn't it be interesting if TPGs had a similar peer review requirement and every so often one TPG would have some of their people go over to another TPG and review their work to see if they did it properly and followed the rules. That is where accountability and transparency starts to come in to a practice like this.

BobC

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by BobC

Leon,

I knew you weren't defending the practice, which is why I apologized up front in case you thought i was responding specifically to what you said. You are also correct in that what the TPGs are doing is not illegal. As with being a CPA, if I do a job and charge a contingent fee to someone, I could potentially be brought up before the Accountancy Board of whatever state I am in and lose my license to practice for doing that. I could also be sued if something goes wrong or bad in a deal that then relied upon my opinion.

CPAs self-regulate and have to undergo peer review every so often to keep and maintain our licenses to practice, as we supposedly adhere to one, common set of rules that all practicing CPAs are supposed to follow. This is where the TPGs really differ, they can all make up their own rules and grading criteria however they want, because no one else forces them to follow anything else. Wouldn't it be interesting if TPGs had a similar peer review requirement and every so often one TPG would have some of their people go over to another TPG and review their work to see if they did it properly and followed the rules. That is where accountability and transparency starts to come in to a practice like this.

BobC

Can have a company that reviews the reviews as well...and do a IGR 'independent grade review'

as far as regulations and having universal procedures in place, its all all about regulation...and freedom from regulation. People differ on that issue in many areas besides baseball cards

[BobC]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Can have a company that reviews the reviews as well...and do a IGR 'independent grade review'

as far as regulations and having universal procedures in place, its all all about regulation...and freedom from regulation. People differ on that issue in many areas besides baseball cards

You wouldn't really need another independent group to check on the TPG companies. As long as they all followed the same, consistent set of standards and rules as far as grading cards goes, they could just check on each other every so often to make sure they're all doing it the same, correct way. If they found one of their peer TPG companies wasn't abiding by the rules and following the proper, consistent and recognized grading standards, they could let whoever/whatever group that had licensing control/authority over TPG companies know and possibly have them stop that TPG company from being able continue grading cards until they corrected whatever the issues were that were found.

As for the comment about regulations though, and the freedom from them, I'm against more regulations as much as anyone else. However, in this case the "regulations" aren't there for the benefit or detriment of the TPG companies, they would be in place to protect you and I as collectors to try to insure that these TPG companies are doing a fair and honest job of evaluating, authenticating and grading cards, that they are applying consistent, recognized standards in so doing and, that they are independent and unbiased in their work. At least as far as I am concerned, they should be.

The TPG companies don't have anyone really watching them. They can do what they want. That is why we still occasionally see some of these off-the-wall graded cards from some supposed TPG company that no one has ever heard of showing up for sale every now and then. You or I could start our own grading company tomorrow if we wanted to, and it is perfectly fine and legal. Now, you're likely not going to get many people trusting you and your grading, at least amongst the type of collectors that frequent this site but, if you're selling at a flea market or on Ebay and some unsuspecting collecting newbie that doesn't know any better takes a chance, you've done nothing legally wrong. And there is the gist of the problem, anybody can really do or say whatever they want, without much consequence.

Think about it.....all these people working at these TPG companies doing the grading, exactly how and where did they learn to do it, and what makes them any more qualified than you or I?

Are there any institutions or schools that teach about such grading and authentication out there, or have specified curriculum or degrees available for someone who wants to learn more or get into this type of field? No, right? So what qualifies any of the existing TPG companies to be able to decide on their own who can and can't do this work, and how they should be trained and what rules and standards they follow?

And unless there is only one person doing all the grading at each of the TPG companies out there, how do they get their graders to be consistent and uniform in their evaluation and grading process? They must have some internal set of rules/conditions/standards they provide and require their graders to follow and adhere to then, right? And if that is the case, I would think you should be able to ask any of the TPG companies for a definitive, list or schedule of the standards and criteria they require their graders to follow and adhere to so as to determine specifically what makes a card get a grade of 1, or a 4, or a 6.5 or a 40 or an 88, etc. Every single card they grade should be put through a similar, consistent process. There should probably a specified checklist for each and every card to make sure a grader looked at all the applicable things they need to look at and evaluate the card for. And just like each graded card has its own cert #, each graded card should also have its own documentation as to how the evaluation and grade was arrived at, and should be retained by the TPG company so as to document what they did and how they arrived at the opinion that they did on a particular card. I honestly don't know anything about the inner workings of TPG companies. Do they already do these kinds of things I'm suggesting they should do? And if not, why not?

BobC