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Old 06-30-2005, 09:16 AM
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Default Greatest Pitchers Ever ?

Posted By: Hal Lewis

I think you have to consider the NUMBER of overall victories AND the career winning percentage in order to get a TRUE idea of how good a pitcher was. They must have proved themselves over a LONG period of time, not just a short stint.

Phil Neikro had 300+ wins... but had 274 losses.

Sandy Koufax only had 6 dominating seasons.

Whitey Ford had the benefit of the Yankee lineup giving him run support.

----------------------------------

BUT.....

there are only THREE pitchers in HISTORY who have won over 300 games AND won more than 65% of the games in which they pitched:

LEFTY GROVE: 300-141 (.680)
ROGER CLEMENS: 334-167 (.667)
CHRISTY MATHEWSON: 373-188 (.665)



I don't know who else would make up the "Top 5" pitchers of All-Time...

but these three MUST be included on any list.





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Old 06-30-2005, 09:25 AM
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Default Greatest Pitchers Ever ?

Posted By: warshawlaw

Add in Spahn and Alexander to round it out.

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Old 06-30-2005, 09:26 AM
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Default Greatest Pitchers Ever ?

Posted By: Anson

That's certainly one way to look at it. However, Many pitchers end up on crappy teams with no run support. Just as an example, look at Clemens record early in the year.

There really isn't one true stat that shows the effectiveness of a pitcher. You have to look at the whole picture.

The three pitchers you mentioned would certainly end up on most peoples'lists however.

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Old 06-30-2005, 09:45 AM
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Default Greatest Pitchers Ever ?

Posted By: leon

I don't think you can ever talk about the greatest pitchers of all time without mentioning the Big Train Walter Johnson. 110 career shutouts, led the league 12 years in strikeouts, 11 times had an ERA under 2.00..... and played on a crappy team ....I think he lost about half his games with his team giving him 2 or less runs to work with.....He has to be almost at the top, imo...regards

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Old 06-30-2005, 09:52 AM
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Default Greatest Pitchers Ever ?

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Nolan Ryan fan, I'd enter him in based on the 'on the crappy teams' clause.....I know he only won about 30-40 games more than he lost but his supporting casts were often less than the best........I'm sure that nomination will upset some folks, but had he been on better teams in the 1970's and 80's, he'd have 400 wins I think.........

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Old 06-30-2005, 09:55 AM
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Default Greatest Pitchers Ever ?

Posted By: Darren J. Duet

The greatest pitcher ever? Walter Johnson.

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Old 06-30-2005, 10:02 AM
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Default Greatest Pitchers Ever ?

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Speaking of Nolan Ryan and Walter Johnson really makes you appreciate how great CLEMENS is...

since all 3 of them have a TON of strikeouts...

but only Clemens has the 300+ wins AND the 65%+ winning percentage.

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Old 06-30-2005, 10:05 AM
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Default Greatest Pitchers Ever ?

Posted By: Chad

And this is on no particular order:

Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Satchel Paige
Tom Seaver
Roger Clemens
Smokey Joe Williams
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Pete Alexander
Warren Spahn

Man, that leaves off a lot of good pitchers--Cy Young, Randy Johnson, Rube Foster, Gaylord Perry, Juan Marichal, Koufax, Bob Gibson. It's just impossible to decide with pitchers. As for Nolan Ryan, he was a great pitcher, but I wouldn't take him over any of the guys I've mentioned. I don't mean that as a knock on him, tho. He's obviously a legit hall of famer.

--Chad

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Old 06-30-2005, 10:26 AM
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Default Greatest Pitchers Ever ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

HAL

I am surprised you considered Clemons instead of Johnson.
The numbers do not always tell the "real story" as applied to
pitchers. The "numbers game" is more suitable to batters.

Most do not appreciate that Johnson pitched with a modified
sidearm motion. Its amazing his effectiveness endured all those
years.

Besides, I rather see your Ramly pix of the "the Big Train".

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Old 06-30-2005, 10:32 AM
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Default Greatest Pitchers Ever ?

Posted By: john/z28jd

edited because my scan was putting page off-center


my actual top 5 is in this order:
Walter Johnson
Lefty Grove
Christy Mathewson
Cy Young
Roger Clemens

I never had Clemens top 5 till after last seasons but i dont see him going any higher than 5th

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