Vintagecardpricing - Billing warning.

[Archive]

Posted By: arcade

It's mostly about basic consumer rights, and customer service.

All pep rallies aside, let's remember my first post said:
"I wish Bobby well with the project, and hope that this was a fluke incident. From what I can gather, Bobby aims to run a professional site, that will become a standard tool in the future"

It's absurd to me that this was taken as an attempt at libel, and even more
absurd that anyone thinks I'm trying to concoct some grand scam to defame this person and his website for $60 (especially when I supposedly "frequent" said site). That response speaks for itself.

[Archive]

Posted By: arcade

"If Barak did in fact use the service after September 3 ANY number of times I want to know it."

Me too!! Because then our little accounting issue would have grown into one involving identity theft, and/or photoshop!

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Posted By: Cobby33

I'm not sure publishing the customer's usage information is very prudent.

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Posted By: leon

I disagree. One of the two is lying. Bobby should prove what he is saying, imho. If he doesn't want to prove it then he shouldn't say it. The truth is the evidence.....or whatever ya'll lawyers say.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Let's not act like we are the Judge and Jury here. Those two should part ways and move on. If we did a monthly Poll then I know Bobby would get 1 or 2 negative votes and 8 positives judging fom this thread. I would be curious as to how Bobby's competition would do against him? Same thing with Mastro against REA... It's all in the percentages..

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Posted By: Cobby33

Hey Leon-
I don't disagree with you- I'm just thinking there might be some kind of a privacy right there- not as severe as disclosing personal information- but caution should be exercised.

[Archive]

Posted By: arcade

n/m

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

I have not posted because we are waiting for our attorney to tell me if I can. The situation as we see it is we can not post the log in because we refunded 5 months and he paid for 6. If we refunded the entire amount then technically he was never a member.At least in my view but will keep you posted as I get an answer.

A lot of messages have been edited now from there original posts. One of them saying that I do nothing for this board or hobby and using my members. If that is the general opinion then this will be my last post. I would like to think that by posting current price information and sales records was helpful to some but I guess that was wrong of me.

So like so many others that have businesses in the hobby, grading services, auction houses, etc. and countless other members and collectors. I will not be participating or trying to add anything to this board anymore.

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Posted By: Noel Wrye

So far the customer has been accused of lying, called an idiot, and accused of trying to defame a business' good name all with zero facts to back up anything. Bobby's corespondences have been terse, mean-spirited, and completely unproductive. Mr. Barak has responded in kind by simply asking that the wrong be corrected. Bobby, your credibility is at stake not because of anything Mr. Barak has said but because of your accusations. Unless there is something i am missing, a case this simple should have been handled by a prompt refund and an apology for the oversite.

I would like to know what Bobby's take is on "stooping down to the customers level". If this means correcting a wrong and admitting and apologizing for an overlooked mistake then i am a little confused as to his vision of customer service.

[Archive]

Posted By: mark

You have helped many collectors here by posting answers to question they might have. In my opinion, you should allow everyone including non members of this board a 2 week free trial always. When they see that your site is useful they will stay on. If after 2 weeks the person does not feel it is the right choice then they will be allowed to end the membership free and clear.

Just an idea...

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Posted By: Steve M.

Come on:

He used it or he didn't. Not that tough to prove. I don't think it takes a lawyer for you to do this.

Edited to delete what may have been perceived as biased against the poster and his allies. That was not intended. I personally like Bobby and VCP. BUT someone has to come clean here or this will never be resolved.

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Posted By: JK

Bobby,

Your service seems like a good one and I have nothing against it or you. In fact, Ive been debating for sometime whether or not I should expand my membership from the SGC promotion to a full vip. Nevertheless, this whole mess could have and should have been dealt with off line (that goes for both parties) and a refund should have been offered simply as a matter of common customer service. Even if the board agrees with your position 2 to 1 or 8 to 1, do you really want to alienate those who disagree - possibly turning them off as potential customers for good? Finally, you state that you are seeking advise from your lawyer before you post the sign in log - I hope that same lawyer isnt the one who advised you to post "arcade's" real name (of course, he should have put his name to his original post per board rules I believe).

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

I've had a hard time staying out of this one, but here goes.

First I'll say I'm a cardpricer.com fan so I am biased. Ted and his group made Wayne Delia's image file available to collectors far before the site was ready, and I think that deserves some loyalty. They certainly have mine.

Ted came on the board just before the site launched and said that, because he is now in a commercial position, he would not post here anymore and he hasn't (to the detriment of the board, in my opinion). That was a classy and probably difficult thing to do. We haven't heard a peep about cardpricer.com since.

But from Day One Bobby has used this forum to promote his site at every opportunity. In his launch stage he was on here very frequently talking about the new this or that functionality until someone finally called him on using the board for advertisement. (I think it may have been Jay Behrens - Lordy I miss that boy and wish he'd return to regluar contributing. C'mon Jay - you're still out there, right?)

Anyways, since then there have been uncountable instances of this board being used to promote vcp. Someone asks a question about card value? Bobby is there with a clip from his site and a reminder that there is much more similarly valuable info there. Need an image? There's one, with a reminder that vcp has many many images, check them out. Have a question about web site hosting for card collections? Surprise - you can access this for less cost through vcp.

I'm not saying this is bad. I don't like it myself, but can't really say it's out of line. But I'll tell you what. It strikes me as very very inconsistent that, after using this board to put vcp into every thread possible, Bobby would now suggest that it is not appropriate for someone else to use this forum to address a negative experience with his site.

The board either is or is not apporpriate to discuss vcp and its issues. Can't have it both ways.

And I also agree that having made the statement that Barak has logged in and used the service since he requested cancellation, Bobby should show that to be true. It's unfair to just throw it out there and not back it up.

Joann Kline

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Posted By: Rich H.

My 2 cents. As a relatively new board member, I am deeply disturbed by the assault that Barak received. While this matter probably should have been kept offline, the fact is that is wasn't. Escalation has occurred with wild accusations flying either way.

My opinion is that if a party (any party) engages in the escalation, responsibility and accountability follow hand in hand. It would be aggregious to not follow through and settle this once and for all.

I recently signed up for Bobby's website on a trial basis and I have found it useful. However, as a consumer, I make my purchasing choices based upon a number of factors - most importantly the reputation of the people/person/company behind the product. Unfortunately, this matter has escalated to a point where "settlement" depends on the confirmation of a "few facts." I will probably decide whether to continue to subscribe to the website depending on how this entire dispute pans out.

I don't know who suggested that this conflict should be "settled" by a poll - some sort of popularity vote - but that seems way off base here. I completely understand someone trying to defend a colleague or friend, but the dismissal of what is becoming a potential legal debate in favor of a "vote of confidence" has no merit.

Rich

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

As a bystander to this whole thing who doesn't know Edacra or subscribe to Bobby's website I'll throw in my 2 cents for what that's worth.

Bobby, give a full refund and move along. No doubt it should have been handled privately, but you have done yourself a huge disservice by your actions in this thread....to out Edacra's real name and then say you'll have to have a lawyer look over the user agreement before you post the login information is BS - pure and simple BS. Edacra has even asked you to post the information....Until you post that login information I will assume you are lying.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Every word.
If there is more - as you have hinted at Bobby but completely failed to show, then you have done a very poor job of explaining it. Barak has been entirely polite and professional, it was another poster entirely (who I do not recognize) who spoke poorly of you. Nothing to do with Barak.
As Leon said, one person has come on the board and flat out lied, and in doing so painted the other in a very poor light. Serve up the truth, as Barak has to some extent with the record of an attempt to cancel his service, or stop crying about it.


Daniel

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

For the record:


Barak called me on the phone yesterday and apoligized for starting this post and did not mean me any harm. I told him that it was not a good idea to do what he did and would of preferred for us to settle this privately. I asked him to send me his address and would be cutting him a check for 5 months of membership dues as is policy of the user agreement. So either way deserving or not he has been issued a refund and as I told him he would never be able to use our service in the future.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

You inferred that Edacra has been using the site the whole time...show us the proof.

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

Hey Bobby,

What about his wife, can she use it? Maybe his children or grandchildren? How far will you hound this man to make him pay for his temerity????
Nazi hunters are one thing, but scarlet letters for someone who wants to end their card service and feels they were wrongly charged is RIDICULOUS.


Daniel


Daniel

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I agree Daniel. Bobby is just coming off as mean spirited (and possibly a liar). That can't be good for business.

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Posted By: Dave

I'll assume that vintagecardprices is not going to show us any proof to back up their accusations. Not too surprised. I won't be using their service for sure, and won't miss their or any of the other entities that were mentioned like grading companies, big auction houses...etc. Leon stated it pretty clearly....one of these parties flat out lied to board members on this forum...maybe more than one time.

glad to see that a refund is being given though... I own 2 businesses, and had this happened at either one it would have never escalated into a situation like the one this thread is about.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Clarke

So let's recap what we have learned so far....

1. Bobby called his customer an IDIOT.
2. Bobby uses this forum for promotion but does not want it used against him
3. Bobby threatens the "Attourney" word on a hundred dollar simple deal.
4. Bobby does NOT back up what he says with usage history he claims he can.
5. Bobby had an issue using un-authorized images in old thread.
6. Bobby Black Balls someone from ever using there service over a simple cheap mis-understand. Classless!!!!! He even had proof of old e-mail.

Bobby... Sometimes when you WIN you LOSE ... In this case.. You just around lost. I hope everyone making negative posts against you here does NOT get banned as well. It would not surprize me if you did that.. I seems to be your style "Your way or the Highway"... By the way, do you have any partner companies that are reading all this BS you are saying?

The Customer has backed up what he has mentioned. Bobby has an aggressive writing pattern and is quick to lash out. I think we all know the writing is on the wall here. IMO your future does not look good as the competition will run circles around you in service.

Rich... A poll in general might have avoided this from happening. Before choosing which service to go with.. Just look at the polls from what other customers think about their services and products. If Bobby has many complaints about accounting or nasty e-mails, then this problem might not have ever happend and another company would have EARNED his business. This poll will make all companies give us "The End User" more satifaction and make them earn our business...

Why does REA pay for Network54 dinner? Why does Mastro take us on special outings?

On that... Good day JC

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Posted By: Noel Wrye

Bobby,

And what about an apology from you to Mr. Barak for your accusations, name calling, and lies?
And now a lawyer? Outstanding!
Why is he only being given a refund for five months as opposed to six? What did he do to be banned from your site?

If i had to pick a perfect case for how not to handle marketing, customer service, and human relations this would be the lynchpin from where i would start.

At this point I fear the damage is already done. Anything short of a full refund, a sincere apology, and an full admission of your inappropriate actions would be insufficient.

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Posted By: Dave

I think after Noel's post ....that pretty well sums it up for me. If word of mouth is important to vintagecardpricing then they just shot themselves in the foot big time ! Frankly, I don't care if I'm banned from vintagecardpricng....since it hasn't affected my collecting in the past , I doubt it will in the future. matter of fact, I voluntarily will ban myself...LOL

[Archive]

Posted By: edacra

Bobby is correct, I did express an apology over the phone, simply due to the perception here that by bringing this matter to the forum it was a libelous personal attack on this person. Some had suggested that in itself deserved an apology. That is it. I stand by everything I have said here. Bobby and VintageCardPricing have yet to claim accountability for their own billing error, or even apologize.

Bobby made two posts today stating he has issued a refund. As of Sunday 2:30pm EST I have not received this refund. Rather then reverse charges to the card he charged me on, as an immediate resolution, he is claiming he will "cut a company check". He has not indicated when such check might be sent.

Bobby,
Let me be direct: If you truly consulted with your attorney, it just cost you more then a simple refund ever would have. We both know why you can't provide the usage info. Let's not turn a billing dispute into a credit fraud investigation, eh?

[Archive]

Posted By: edacra

For full disclosure sake, and because I truly do not appreciate having my own integrity questioned....

This forum: "edcara [releases my full name] never contacted me until last night 9:38PM. I never knew of any request or dissatisfaction with our services that we provide and it was new to me."

Email to me: "I remember you wanting to cancel then you changed your mind and said you would keep the membership for the time being."

By phone: When I denied this occured, and suggested he had me confused with another customer, he told me that my distinctive name was the reason he remembers the above interaction.

Here is the email pasted with the header info, and a screen shot of the Private Message I mentioned earlier in the thread.


Barak,

You would need to send me this email you claim to have and I made this
deal on Net 54 in June when we launched not September. I also told them
to sign up as a limited member and notify me via email and I would
upgrade them for the duration. Never once did I say to use a credit card
for a free offer. I will cancel out your account but will not be issuing
a refund,

I remember you wanting to cancel then you changed your mind and said you
would keep the membership for the time being.

Regards,

Bobby


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Posted By: Dan Bretta

That pretty much seals the deal....Give a FULL Refund Bobby and apologize. It's probably too late now though as you have probably lost some business over this.

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

Since Mr. Barak stated "Please do share my sign in log, Bobby. I have suggested it." from a previous post here is the log in info:

IP Address Date Time
172.191.75.136 2/24/07 11:28PM
172.191.75.136 2/24/07 10:07PM
172.191.75.136 2/24/07 11:28AM
172.191.75.136 2/23/07 07:38PM
172.191.75.136 2/21/07 04:56PM
172.191.75.136 2/18/07 06:12PM
172.191.75.136 2/16/07 12:38PM
172.191.75.136 2/15/07 04:24PM
172.191.75.136 2/14/07 07:31AM
172.191.75.136 2/09/07 12:19AM
172.191.75.136 2/08/07 09:54PM
172.191.75.136 2/07/07 08:22PM
172.191.75.136 2/01/07 03:48PM
172.191.75.136 1/30/07 06:53AM
172.191.75.136 1/27/07 10:07PM
172.191.75.136 1/26/07 08:57PM

These are his last 15 log ins according to our site records. Again I have given him a refund and he has continued to post. He signed up originally and canceled is correct and in correspndence he said he would keep the membership and give it some time. I have never heard back from him again until last night

Why is it I would pick him to try and screw out of a measly $50.00 and since we have started have had a total of 24 members cancel service. With Almost 2000 members and about 400 paying I am not trying to cheat anyone. There are a few members on this board that I am sure have canceled with us and there was no troubles at all.

And I am sure Leon can verufy that this is his IP address from his side.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve M.

OK Barak, you're up to bat. How about an explantion?

And, you know, I really don't want to hear some BS that VCP has dummied up these records.

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Posted By: Dave

Your able to look a the last few logs ins I understand, but are you able to track where on the site people have been? Ex. Such as if someone has been through the VIP services or just been on the site in general?

Dave

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

It tracks when a member has logged into the site only and not where they have been or wha they have searched a little to much big brother for me.

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Posted By: edacra

Seriously. What's wrong with you????

The IP address you used with your FAKED log for me is an AOL IP.
Roadrunner/Time Warner is my primary IP.

My computer was with Apple repair on these days.
172.191.75.136 2/08/07 09:54PM
172.191.75.136 2/07/07 08:22PM
I have the documentation to prove it.

Furthermore, I tapered off collecting in November, in large part to sleazeballs and scam artists. I'm done with it.

Leon can verify this through my usage on this very forum, which I do actually frequent. I don't even know the last post I made on this forum prior to this thread, but either way, my usage history will not match the one you have fabricated for me.

Finally, I've been a casual collector since returning to the hobby this summer. None of the dealers here know me as a "frequent" customer, if at all. I have never bought a card through an auction house, in my lifetime. I've never had a card graded, in my lifetime. It took me a matter of hours to realize the content on your site was absolutely worthless to a collector like me.

I merely tried the site because every time I asked questions about it, Mr. Bobby and the Friends of Bobby kept urging people to try it and see how great it was. I did, and canceled immediately.

Without insulting you, please just get help, and do see to it that I get that refund promptly, or I'll be filling fraud charges with my credit card company, and pursuing this matter in every way possible. Thank you.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

edited - never mind -

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Posted By: Steve M.

We will wait for Bobby's answer to your question but I don't think it makes any difference. The records appear to show that he logged on 15 times over the past month and a half.

And I am not forgetting that he apparently let 5 or 6 months to pass before he noticed the charge on his charge card account. In today's climate of identity theft one would think that more diligence is required in monitoring ones financials.

Now I know that I'll hear again how it isn't right that the card was charged if it wasn't authorized. I too am a lawyer and know that. Question here is was it authorized.

Jury's out.

[Archive]

Posted By: edacra

Hey Steve M, piss off. The guy made the log because he got backed into a corner and felt entitled to lie, and his paranoiac tendencies got the best of him. Can I prove that?

Believe who you want to believe and feel good about yourself.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave

That comment to Steve just shot any credability you have IMO. If I were Bobby...you'd get charged the full amount of six months for using the site.

Dave

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Steve, Edacra just said he uses TW/Roadrunner and not AOL...I also thought your IP address changed everytime you turn your computer off/on??? I also would like to see a screenshot like Edacra put up for proof...just copying the info to this site is not proof. It's enough for me to believe edacra seeing his note to Bobby back in September that the site was not useful to him.

As for not checking the credit card - I never check mine because my wife opens all the mail and makes out the bills....I suppose if she saw something on there regarding Vintage Card Prices she wouldn't say a word about it to me unless I told her that I cancelled it.

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Posted By: edacra

I'm sorry, but this isn't a game. I feel incredibly ripped off, and for anyone to say "hey don't just say he made it up" when he made it up, is just further insult to me. Of course I don't have any credebility here with any of you - I don't know any of you!

My privacy has been breached, and my credit card has been charged without authorization. I feel violated, and I've been nothing but polite up until this point.

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Posted By: Dave

So why go telling Steve to piss off? What's polite about that if your beef is with Bobby?

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Posted By: Steve M.

"primary". Therein lies the rub.

I have an MSN IP. A Comcast.net IP. An SBCglobal.net IP. I use each every day. I have three computers. I use each every day. When one is down I have another.

Seems to me that VCP has a record of what IP address you gave them when you first signed up. Are you denying that the IP address is yours?

Steve Murray

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Realistically, this thread has reached the point where neither the merchant nor the client are perceived as completely credible. So further discussion seems pointless.

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Posted By: leon

Edacra's IP address, in all postings on this board for the last few days have been 66.xxx.xx.55 I left the middle numbers out on purpose....best regards

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Posted By: Dave

Have you reached a decision Judge? LOL.

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Posted By: edacra

I have no idea what my IP address is. I just did a search to see what he listed and see it's conected to AOL. I use AOL dial up while in California, and retain the AOL application for mail, which I use over Roadrunner.

Like I said, Leon can compare the usage and IP's if he was inclined.

I don't know what else you want from me?

I've been nothing but forthcoming, with priviledge info, and if that's not enough, so be it. This isn't a popularity contest.

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Posted By: Dave

If it's not a popularity contest then what exactly are you wanting?? He said he'd cut you a check...where I come from that is the same thing as money..why not take it and stop this? Looks like it is a popularity contest to me.

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Posted By: leon

Read my last post. Your IP has been the same for this thread. I will say that AOL does not use static IP's and they can/do change, from my limited knowledge of technology.....

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Posted By: Noel Wrye

If anyone here is concerned about credibility just reference some of Bobbys previous messages. He has already been less than truthful on numerous occasions. Furthermore he has admitted that there was a cancellation request made. Seems pretty hard to believe that he would resort to this rather than just apologize for the oversite and move on...pretty sad

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Posted By: Steve M.

"The IP address you used with your FAKED log for me is an AOL IP.
Roadrunner/Time Warner is my primary IP."

So, as I understand it, your assertion that the IP address is "FAKED" is that it is an AOL address. Right?

Disengenuous at best. Stated for the purpose of making one believe that it just had to be "FAKED" because it was an AOL IP...(and you didn't have an AOL IP).

Now you tell us you do.

Want to explain?

Steve Murray

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Posted By: edacra

Leon, thank you for taking the time to check into that.

Dave, I'm still posting because people are still asking for explanations.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I don't view Bobby's post with the IP addresses to be credible until I see a screenshot. Edacra's screenshot makes it crystal clear he was not going to use the website.