Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Because the fraud is being perpetrated by multiple parties and you only choose to focus on one of those parties. And don't tell me to read your other posts about how you blame PSA too. I've read them. Words are one thing, actions are another. You could have included PSA in this poll too if you really thought they share equally in the blame.

Hypothetical question. Let's say YOU had the power to successfully prosecute ONLY ONE of these parties and get a conviction - the other two skate. Who would you choose? Brent? Gary? PSA?

What’s PSA’s crime?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

What’s PSA’s crime?

I don't know about NY, but in TX it's against the law to take money for a service you didn't provide.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I don't know about NY, but in TX it's against the law to take money for a service you didn't provide.

Really? Which Texas criminal statute are you referring to?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Really? Which Texas criminal statute are you referring to?

It's right under the statute that affirms that doctoring a card is fraud. Surely you're familiar with it?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It's right under the statute that affirms that doctoring a card is fraud. Surely you're familiar with it?

PSA’s incompetence is not criminal, just as stupidity isn’t criminalized either.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

PSA’s incompetence is not criminal, just as stupidity isn’t criminalized either.

Isn't PSA in essence a contractor? Aren't people paying them to perform a service? If they can't do that service (even if it is incompetence) can't they still be held liable in a civil court?

Maybe not criminal, but they're still obligated to perform the service for which they were paid. If I hire a contractor to remodel my kitchen and he screws it up, do I not have any recourse? Sure I do.

[calvindog]

Of course! They’re 100% liable civilly for their lousy work. And lousy is being kind.

And I wish a criminal case could be made against PSA as it would better explain some of their head-scratching incompetence. But that would require evidence that they purposely allowed altered cards to be graded, ie someone getting paid off to do so. There hasn’t even been smoke yet suggesting such evidence exists. But who knows for certain.

[Dpeck100]

Leon you raise a great point. A large percentage of respondents weren't using PWCC prior and so while their opinion matters for this poll it has no bearing on the future impact of PWCC.

I have been wearing Nike Air Max since I was 17. For the last 23 years I have only worn this type of athletic shoe. They have raised the price over time and the last pair I purchased was over $200. Nike in my view has the best styling and performance you can find and for that I am a loyal customer. Last year they did the unthinkable and ran adds with Colin Kaepernick. I despise that guy. How on earth could Nike alienate such a large percentage of their customer base in favor of making a political statement? In mass there was outrage on social media. Their stock dropped on the news. Videos of long time customers burning their products and swearing never to buy from them again. Here we sit a year later and I have never seen the add once, their stock is back to right where it was, you never hear anyone saying they are done with Nike, and my next pair of shoes will still be Air Max.

I shave six to seven days a week. I use the Gillette five blade and Edge shave gel. There have been loads of new products come onto the market. Cheaper blades, fancy shave creams and I still use the same formula that works for me. Gillette releases an add focusing on Toxic Masculinity. WTF??? Their vision is for all men to be beta male soy boys after for years showcasing studs that get chicks. Outrage ensues. Social media is exploding. Their idiotic video is shared countless times and the response was so bad they deleted thousands of comments from it on Youtube. My wife even said Dave I don't want Gillette products in our home. Here I sit as I type this and once more all of this has gone away. I still use the Gillette five blade and will continue to because in my view it is the best razor blade on the market.

This saga will pass in time. Collecting is an individual choice where people put their hard earned money into collectibles and to completely boycott the seller won't last. I am confident plenty of people saying this today will eventually turn and purchase from them once more. The same people consigning to PWCC could simply send the cards to Probstein. Are you going to boycott all consignment sellers? Of course not. Many of us search daily for specific cards or ones that could enhance our collections and I am not going to give up on that just because there is the appearance of wrong doing. It is laughable to think that all PWCC auctioned cards are bad. Reading comments on various boards that all high grade cards are suspect. Give me a break. I have self subbed a ton. Many others have too.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Leon you raise a great point. A large percentage of respondents weren't using PWCC prior and so while their opinion matters for this poll it has no bearing on the future impact of PWCC.

I have been wearing Nike Air Max since I was 17. For the last 23 years I have only worn this type of athletic shoe. They have raised the price over time and the last pair I purchased was over $200. Nike in my view has the best styling and performance you can find and for that I am a loyal customer. Last year they did the unthinkable and ran adds with Colin Kaepernick. I despise that guy. How on earth could Nike alienate such a large percentage of their customer base in favor of making a political statement? In mass there was outrage on social media. Their stock dropped on the news. Videos of long time customers burning their products and swearing never to buy from them again. Here we sit a year later and I have never seen the add once, their stock is back to right where it was, you never hear anyone saying they are done with Nike, and my next pair of shoes will still be Air Max.

I shave six to seven days a week. I use the Gillette five blade and Edge shave gel. There have been loads of new products come onto the market. Cheaper blades, fancy shave creams and I still use the same formula that works for me. Gillette releases an add focusing on Toxic Masculinity. WTF??? Their vision is for all men to be beta male soy boys after for years showcasing studs that get chicks. Outrage ensues. Social media is exploding. Their idiotic video is shared countless times and the response was so bad they deleted thousands of comments from it on Youtube. My wife even said Dave I don't want Gillette products in our home. Here I sit as I type this and once more all of this has gone away. I still use the Gillette five blade and will continue to because in my view it is the best razor blade on the market.

This saga will pass in time. Collecting is an individual choice where people put their hard earned money into collectibles and to completely boycott the seller won't last. I am confident plenty of people saying this today will eventually turn and purchase from them once more. The same people consigning to PWCC could simply send the cards to Probstein. Are you going to boycott all consignment sellers? Of course not. Many of us search daily for specific cards or ones that could enhance our collections and I am not going to give up on that just because there is the appearance of wrong doing. It is laughable to think that all PWCC auctioned cards are bad. Reading comments on various boards that all high grade cards are suspect. Give me a break. I have self subbed a ton. Many others have too.

You're equating possible criminal behavior with social issue marketing with which you disagree.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by calvindog

PSA’s incompetence is not criminal, just as stupidity isn’t criminalized either.

jeff/peter, do you think psa's actions (or lack thereof) were negligent? do you think a judge/jury would find them negligent (either criminal or civil)?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by griffon512

jeff/peter, do you think psa's actions (or lack thereof) were negligent? do you a judge/jury would find them negligent (either criminal or civil)?

If I were claiming PSA misgraded a card I bought, I would just bring a claim on their guarantee, which is an easier case in the nature of strict liability, I'm not sure why I would go to negligence although I'd have to think about it further.

[Snapolit1]

It’s simply amazing that’s a major swath of this board has apparently not been participating in PWCC auctions for sometime, yet in the past year I’ve been outbid on over 95% of the high end items I’ve bid on.

I call bullshit.

[jhs5120]

I said yes, I'll still consign. If someone creates a consignment service as efficient and effective as PWCC, maybe I'll switch. I haven't bought much from them, but if they still had something that I liked, I'd still probably bid. I tend to shy away from high-dollar cards at PWCC though.

On a related note, why have we only heard from LOTG on this scandal? Surely many of these cards originated from other auction houses. Surely these cards will start to make their way into other auction houses if PWCC actually starts to reject Moser consignments. Should we assume other auction houses will reject six figure consignments from Moser if given the opportunity?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I said yes, I'll still consign. If someone creates a consignment service as efficient and effective as PWCC, maybe I'll switch. I haven't bought much from them, but if they still had something that I liked, I'd still probably bid. I tend to shy away from high-dollar cards at PWCC though.

On a related note, why have we only heard from LOTG on this scandal? Surely many of these cards originated from other auction houses. Surely these cards will start to make their way into other auction houses if PWCC actually starts to reject Moser consignments. Should we assume other auction houses will reject six figure consignments from Moser if given the opportunity?

It's not just Gary. There are lots of guys doing this work and have been for decades. Sigh. And yes many AHs take their cards. I had an extraordinary conversation with one of them a few years back, it was quite the wake up call to what really goes on.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's not just Gary. There are lots of guys doing this work and have been for decades. Sigh. And yes many AHs take their cards. I had an extraordinary conversation with one of them a few years back, it was quite the wake up call to what really goes on.

Peter, let me start by saying that you and I are on the same team. I share your extreme distaste for the BS in this hobby. My eyes have been opened here, and I'm adjusting my collecting accordingly.

But you keep alluding to this well of knowledge about other card doctors and AHs that might be complicit as well.

My question is - why not share that knowledge? Tell us about that conversation. Give us the details.

With all due respect, I don't know how 100s of snarky posts help advance the hobby at this point. Many of us would benefit by hearing what you know vs. just what you think about the topic at hand. The latter has been well established, but I know many would benefit from your knowledge as it might help others avoid potential landmines. I say that without any sarcasm at all.