Slabbed and altered vintage cards

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Posted By: nolemmings (Todd)

Maybe there is not as much interest on this board in slabbed vintage cards as I thought, or maybe folks are just tired of possibly sparking another "attack fest" about who has what job, makes what money, drives what car, can lift what weight, can sleep with whomever, takes this or that drug, and similar drivel that was last interesting to me in about 10th grade. STILL,
I am concerned about altered cards getting past SGC or PSA, since I rely fairly heavily (but not exclusively)on their efforts.
Leaving Koos'posts completely aside (I neither accept nor reject their accuracy), BCD states that he submitted 60 altered cards to SGC, only 11 of which were "caught". Julie and Scott have both sought to delve into this a little further, and I too want to know, so I am pasting my post from the other day, and asking Mr. Daniels for the courtesy of a reply.


BCD- can you give us more info on your SGC submission? August 26 2002, 3:00 PM

Brian, did you give SGC (Merkel) advance notice of your submission? Did you pay the grading fees? Did you sprinkle in some unaltered cards with the submission? How did you come upon 60 altered vintage cards? Did you get a "cut" rate (pardon the pun) for taking them off someone's hands? Were the 11 that he spotted altered differently than the ones he missed? This and any other info appreciated.

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Posted By: jay berhens

paper restoration in the hands of professional is really hard to detect. I remember back in the mid 80s a lot of very low grade goudeys were bought so that the paper from those cards could be used to rebuild the corners of other Goudeys. I am sure this was probably also done with t206s.

Jay

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Posted By: runscott

David Rudd, SGC, PSA, anyone else...

Let's say a card corner has been restored - one corner only, and that trimming was not involved. How do the major grading companies check for this? (i.e-paper restoration). Does the black light catch this, or does it take paper-fiber analysis with a microscope? Or is it non-catchable?

This leads to a follow-on question: if you CAN catch corner restoration, what is an acceptable failure rate? Are the grading companies meeting an acceptable rate?

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Posted By: David

I have no familiarity with PSA or SGC's authentication processes, so am not in a position to comment on what they do or don't do.

The resotored cards that were just talked about had the corner(s) restored to normalcy by added paper fibers from other (low grade) cards, usually to always from cards from the same type (Goudey to Goudey, etc). I have seen restored Goudeys, Diamond Kings and wouldn't be surprised if there is a T206 or two out there. All were big name cards, like Ruths, 33G #1 Benough, etc, and were restored to Mint, Nrmt-Mt or similar highest grade. The person who did this restoration did not do it to deceive anyone and I have often seen them offered for sale while being represented as restored. By the way, the original restorer had to quit because he became allergic to the toxic adhesives needed-- and he would put a small dot on the back of each restored card.

On a practical level, these particular restored cards are easy to identify by any collector, as there is a difference in opacity ('see through' effect). When held up to a light, like a desk lamp, the corners are much more see through than the rest of the card.

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Posted By: David

I don't wish go too deeply in identification of alterations, but most alterations (even sophisitacted alteration) can be identified by the collector who is motivated to learn how to identify. Simple and inexpensive methods like using a blacklight, checking opacitiy and holding the item at angle to a light source to check gloss, are highly effective. Somtimes inpainting can literally be felt by running one's fingertip across the surface. In some cases more advanced methods like using a microscope or infrared viewer are neccesary, but even these methods are used by highly motivated collectors (many fine art painting collectors own a infrared viewer).

The vast majority of non-trimming alterations are not going to be professional restorations of ten thousand dollar Babe Ruths, but some joker coloring in the border on a $10 1963 or 1971 Topps.

As I said before, while it's great and encouraged to get second opinions from experts and card graders, it's the collector's responsibility to do his or her (hi, Julie) homework and examination. Most collectors are not interested in learing about authentication, but that is their issue not someone else's.

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Posted By: David

For those interested, I teach two once a year authentication short-courses (one for photographs and one on prints (including baseball cards)) on the University of Washinton-Seattle campus. It is open to the general public, and assumes that one has no background experience in the area, other than having a gereral interest in the area (collector, appraiser, artist, other). There is no homework and you are welcome to bring as many (within reason a no Yankees) trading cards to class as you want.

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Posted By: runscott

...so it sounds like a professional grading service, if presented with a $10,000 restored card, has the technology available to catch it prior to slabbing. Good. Next question: what is their success rate? Brian claimed 11/60 for SGC...is that acceptable? What percentage of these cards were HOF'ers? ...economics would dictate that most high$$ altered cards are HOF'ers. ...gee, and I collect HOF'ers!

Once the card in question has been slabbed, there is no way to check opacity, etc., without cracking it out. And since the slabbing (authenticating) was done to boost the value, who in their right mind would remove a $10,000 card from its holder to double-check PSA or SGC's authentication process?

Thus, the importance of the question being asked. I protect myself by not buying high-end slabbed cards, but there are plenty of collectors who buy, and probably also some newbie collectors who have been told that high$$$ SGC and PSA graded cards are good, safe investments. Maybe...as long as you keep passing them around in a circle among collectors who blindly accept whatever they're handed as long as it's encased in plastic.

...so how about that re-backed Matty Red Hindu? ...or the famous t206 Wagner? I would guess that if you can slip a re-backed t206 by two major grading companies, that a trimmed and/or re-cornered HOF'er would be no problem whatsoever.

I'm still curious what methods PSA and SGC use to check for restoration and trimming...and if it works.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

of your next class, David. I'd like to go to that. I wish I knew earlier that you did this.

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Posted By: David

About two years ago I asked SCG how they identified alterations, and they wouldn't tell me. After that I assumed (perhaps, incorrectly) that most graders did not consider that type of stuff public information (perhaps they want to their techniques secret from each other). I have virtually nill experience with SGC and PSA other than that.

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Posted By: runscott

I guess it's within their rights to consider it proprietary info, but given the Matty Red Hindu fiasco, I think we are within our rights to let them know that if they can't come up with some explanations (and "c'mon guys, we're only human" doesn't cut it) they are going to lose some of us.

What if I authenticated autographs and explained to my buyers that they could trust me - I use secret techniques?

Ever since BMW sold the PSA-graded CJ Wagner, advertising that it was trimmed, I have kept an eye on PSA and SGC slabbed cards. I started to notice patterns. For instance, there was an antique shop that sold almost an entire collection of t206s on ebay, in lots of one each, and only the expensive HOF'ers were graded by PSA. Curiously, all cards were worn almost exactly the same amount except for Johnson, Young, and a few other high$$ HOF'ers, all of which had near-perfect corners and were curiously smaller than the commons.

No, we don't need a brain surgeon for that mystery.

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

Yes David, I'd like to attend also, unfortunately I'm on the east coast. Any prerequisites? (I'm an ex offest printer who did half-tone work and used black light), LOL. Any handouts? An end of course synopsis?

Would love to see you write something up and post it here on the board at some point. I think both the "old timers" and the "newbies" would have your undevided attention. We all have a vested interest, are more then willing students, and its the very reason we come. What better venue can there be?

Don't need to build it, we are here. Like flies on honey. Keith

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...and assessing of restoration. No doubt that whoever is doing the grading for the major slabbing companies knows their stuff when it comes to telling a 5 from a 6 but how many of them have the HANDS-ON EXPERTISE that someone like BRIAN DANIELS has in restoration techniques and what to look for since he IS a Master Restorer (not taking that away from him) and KNOWS HOW TO SLIDE THEM RIGHT BY THE BEST OF GRADING SERVICES. In Vegas, the guys they put in the rafters to watch all the players at the gaming tables are ex-cheats, well versed with practical hands-on expertise in the art of cheating the house in hundreds of ways..that's why they're hired. To watch for others that exhibit tendencies that THEY have used to cheat the house. SAME THING APPLIES: to grading services! If the grader can't stretch and whack a card and MAKE IT look NORMAL, how is he going to catch ALL of them that have had that done? Someone like Brian WOULD be able to catch 99.9 out of 100 because he CAN DO IT HIMSELF and knows ALL of the earmarks. The same goes for ANY type of alteration. A grader, who sits in solitary judgement on a card SHOULD be able to assign a grade AND rule out positively, any alteration whatsoever because there is every reason to believe that the card slabbed will remain housed for all time and in most cases won't be given a second thought having been "blessed" with the grading service's benediction.
Look at the autographed Ruth card in lot: 1854502614 . PASSED by PSA/DNA and a BLATANT ERROR in judgement. ASK RICHARD SIMON what he thinks of that signature that is literally SCREAMING, "FAKE..FAKE...I was signed less than a dozen years ago...FAKE!". If they make mistakes as obvious as this one, how many others have they made? An ink spectromity test on this signature wouldn't even read 20+, let alone 50+, and I'd bet BIG BIG money on it!

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Posted By: Dan M

...we should believe Brian, then, when he tells us your Mantle and Jackson are restored and worthless, which you have also said before, yourself. Right?

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...ANYTHING is possible! It's even possible that the PSA 8 Wagner isn't what it appears to be but I don't know that for sure. I've NEVER examined it, nor was I asked to. Just as Brian has NEVER examined the Pro 52T MM or Pro E90-1 Jax, nor was he asked to.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...for those two cards. I didn't print them, in 1909 and 1952, or more recently, I didn't restore them, in the event that they are, and I didn't have them slabbed. I BOUGHT THEM AS YOU SEE THEM and by all means should have the same right to offer them as bought regardless of the grading company that assessed them. Does everyone on the Board try to block the sale of and attempt assassinating the character of every OTHER seller of Pro graded cards offered on Ebay? Or am I the only priviledged one, for some reason, that everyone wished to cross swords with right from the outset?

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Posted By: runscott

to another thread? I don't care whose fault it is, I'm just sick and tired of seeing it pop up where it's not invited.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...cards here, but as soon as I say something USEFUL, that makes PERFECT sense, as on graders qualified to recognize the most subtle of alterations, one of my MANY ardent detractors brings up the Pro cards to distract focus AWAY from a valid point they would rather not recognize in their denial.

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Posted By: leon

Ever look into PSA/DNA?....I have a great long, alcohol induced (but not conceived) story of it being a stamp. Period. NO testing whatsoever....nadda...and on new stuff an item is taken by a person, hired by said company, and is thereby PSA/DNA.....viola' that is what I hear anyway....as I don't have first hand knowledge.....but it did come from a pretty good source....would love to know more.....regards all

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Posted By: RBCraik

Hi,
I think it is appropriate I announce in this thread. If any of you are interested I have handheld blacklights with 6" tubes available. They operate on AAA batteries and also have jack for an ac adaptor (not included.) Price is a very reasonable $20.00 delivered priority mail. A conservative investment in light of all I've been reading in this thread. They are an intimidating factor at the shows and also work great on hotel bedspreads...Email me if interested!

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Posted By: B C Daniels

that went south ala me and dad!

I explained that I restore things-hotwheels & paintings primarily. I had a jewelry business for 14 years and learned how to work with small restorations and castings ect.......I only worked on a handful of cards to see how good the new grading company (SGC ) was.End of story.I have never sold a restored and graded card to anyone......

MY common ground with Koos is that we have the same great grandmother...we were both taken for a financial ride by Moser and Von Dole ( who are the guys selling all the PRO cards ). I got taken in an exact opposite manner of Koos! he bought stuff misrepresented to him and the same guys reversed charges on a sale after keeping a couple of Cobb T-206's ( raw,not altered or graded)and stuck me with a loss on cards they received and sold later ( as in stop payment on their check after I sent them the cards)

I wanted "Richard" to alien with me to pursue legal action against them but as i mentioned in a previous post ( though dan M tells us otherwise*) the fed's nor the DA wanted anything to do with deals concerning collectibles because all value of any collectible is arbitrary!

I called Joe Merkle ( founder of SBC AND SGC* ),told him I sent in some stuff I worked on when I got it back......and we discussed it! That is it....no sale,no money,no deal from previous owner...... that's it. I know nothing about what PSA has graded that may be altered because I do not and would not send anything to them because i do not like there grading and heard too many stories about switched cards........that's it.it's not that complicated and the guy above alleging legal action and the ATF coming down on me and so on is a bunch of non-sense. As if they don't have other things to deal with.......
I have absolutely nothing to do in anyway with the two PRO graded cards Richard (Koos) has....he thought when he purchased those cards that all grading services are a like I think. There are not tons and tons of certified altered cards all over the universe...but of course there are probably a small percentage.......heck,isn't that partially what the grading service is fo to dected sich things? if they fail it's because they do not have the expertese to do the very job you pay them for..to grade cards! So if they can't,they need to create another business.

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

do you mean the 51 BowmaN and 73 Reggie one's?

they were clearly 9's! they were not restored!


And Richard,my last name is KOOS

BK*

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Posted By: Brian C Koos

I know!!! I know!!!!!!

how long have you been collecting Scott?

are you up???

call me for details.........

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Posted By: Brian C Koos

You got those from me! $20.00*** each! and these guys think I am a scammer.......ROFALMAO

I still have about 200 of them. Did you not see I was on this thread !!!!!

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Posted By: runscott

Everything has to be private. I'm not the only one who is interested in this, so air it out...

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Posted By: RBCraik

BCD I did see you on this thread how could I MISS it!?
For you, I will sell them back @ $50 each, and it is you sir, who is the ********.

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Posted By: nolemmings (Todd)

Your answer seems incomplete. You stated you "worked on" only a handful of cards that were then submitted to SGC. Earlier you said SGC caught only 11 of 60. 60 is far more than a handful. If most of these were previously acquired and not "worked on" by yourself, why alter any-- wasn't your sample size was more than large enough to see how good SGC was? Why submit 60, and did you pay the fees for these? What became of the 49 that SGC missed? you say you did not sell them- did you crack them open? Do you still have a copy of the submission form?
I am more than a little troubled by your experiment, on a few levels. I for one can rarely afford the high dollar cards in high grade, so it gives me little comfort to hear that only commons were submitted. I would be extremely cheesed off if I paid good coin for a lot of vintage SGC 84 commons that later turned out to be nothing but alterations. I am hopeful you can clear this up.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

I've already gotten a $1,007 settlement check from the USPS for slight damage they did to my 1913 Fan For a Fan, when they opened it during shipping thru customs and did some sight damage to it.

I reamed them for it. It was right after 9/11, and everything was mayhem. They accepted the SCD Catalog description of its value, and went from there. As the USPS is a Federal Agency, no other Federal Agency can say that collectible values are arbitrary. They've done it in my case, thus they have a precedent for accepting those values.

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

cards! There are a handful and what do you mean what happened to the other 49? 49 certified SGC cards that were in no way tampered are either in my collection or long gone~sold,traded whatever. And di I pay for the service??? of course! I sent them in to be graded so I have to pay for the service just like you would.....my submittal is no different than anyone else's. And if your next question is what exactly are those cards,I would not answer thaT. There in my collection and/or laying around under piles of hot wheels cars and etchings ect and other collectible stuff I deal in so don/t worry......they are not in your chest of draws or safe waiting to be inspected and rejected by the buyer in 2012*.

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Posted By: LargeCharles

Did you submit(60) altered cards? In the post that I am responding to you wrote "There are a handful and what do you mean what happened to the other 49? 49 certified SGC cards that were in no way tampered are either in my collection or long gone~sold,traded whatever."How did the other (49) become"in no way tampered"? Now, you have stated before that you never sold any restored cards(at least that's what I believe I've read previously)but, in your words above you state "long gone~SOLD". Does that mean that you have sold altered cards? I'm not trying to stir up anything, only trying to understand. Maybe I missed something.If you did sell altered cards, were they still slabbed? And did you make the buyer aware of the alteration(s)?
Peace,
Chuck

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Posted By: nolemmings (Todd)

I am fairly certain BCD once said that SGC caught only 11 of 60 altered cards that he had submitted- in fact, I thought that sparked a thread as to how accurate were the grading companies and how much should we trust them. I want to know what happened to the 49 that SGC missed, and now BCD seems to say they were untampered and were sold, traded etc in their certified holders. Which is it--were they altered or not???

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

Yes! I have the other 49 in my collection! I though I was responding to something else about a letter I received concerning some other group of cards and got mixed up with which group I was talking about. I SENT IN 60 CARDS ,11 were rejected by JOE MERKLE HIMSELF AND ONLY JOE MERKLE.......IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHOEVER ELSE IS THEIR NOW HE WAS THE SOLE GRADER AT WEEK SIX OF SGC'S INCEPTION AND THE ONLY ONE WHO VIEWED THE CARDS......THAT IS WHAT HE TOLD ME WHEN I CALLED HIM TO DISCUSS WHY THE 11 CARDS WERE REJECTED.I WANTED TO DO AS SCOTT HAS DONE,FIND OUT HOW THEY GRADE AND WHAT THEY USE TO DETECT THINGS! The company is completely different now after their shake up and ousting of JM... that was like four and a half years ago..the grading industry is completely different....