Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[HRBAKER]

Some folks smell test requires more "aroma" than others.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I know for fact the same names that you see listed on Blowout send cards to both.

People are fooling themselves if they think that somehow they insulate themselves by avoiding PWCC.

One of the names that was listed a month or so back runs his own auctions. I was outed as someone who had made a comment about winning a card from him.

Dave do you think Gary does or are you referring to the modern guys whose names were mentioned?

[brad31]

There was a post on another message board where this card had been called out on Blowout - Probstein was alerted, ended the auction and relisted the card as altered.

This card has been repatched.

Maybe something will come out - but given the chance to do the same thing on the Mantle PWCC did not.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ALTERED-200...d=362623039502

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dave do you think Gary does or are you referring to the modern guys whose names were mentioned?

Modern

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The reason Probstein isn't being mentioned is because PWCC stole so much of their business.

In the top 25 I pointed too only 2 are Probstein. Rewind the clock five or six years ago and he had as much if not more of the high end of the market than PWCC did.

If you can show evidence that Probstein is doing or has done the same as PWCC, be my guest. It's not a hard concept. The only "side" I'm on is the side of logic and reason, so I'm all ears.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Modern

All the stuff going on on that side of the hobby has been a revelation to me. I am not in the least bit surprised, I just didn't know the names or the extent of it.

[sportscardtheory]

It's almost as though some people can't see that it's not ONLY about altered cards. It's also about how a business REACTS to these findings. And PWCC, PSA and BGS' responses and lack thereof speak volumes to their complicity and that severely damages their credibility in the areas of the hobby in which they reside. It's about trust, and I no longer trust PWCC, PSA or BGS in any way. Pointing out other instances of such malfeasance among the hobby doesn't CHANGE that, so you're confused if you think it does. Pointing out some stuff about Probstein doesn't make THIS go away, sorry.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

All the stuff going on on that side of the hobby has been a revelation to me. I am not in the least bit surprised, I just didn't know the names or the extent of it.

I have actually probably bought more cards via Probstein.

He does a fine job but their packaging is awful compared to PWCC.

The same name I sent you in a PM yesterday sends to both. It is common knowledge.

Like you I am not naming names on this board.

Anyone who thinks that somehow this is relegated to one auction house is dreaming. One of the reasons I think it is more prevalent to PWCC is they run a very serious business and do it well. The cash advances and use of cards as credit to buy more just leads to more submissions and the more submissions they get the more bids they get and once more the more submissions they get. It isn't rocket science.

Probably six years ago I got a serious warning on the CU message board from the moderator because I had accused someone of bidding on their own cards in a Probstein auction. The next day the person came into the thread and admitted it and the bids were canceled. This was at a similar time when Rick kept having a guy from NJ win auctions that he previewed in person and they would get sent to PSA and bumped and back in the next months auction.

The card business is a dirty business and you just have to do your best.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

It's almost as though some people can't see that it's not ONLY about altered cards. It's also about how a business REACTS to these findings. And PWCC, PSA and BGS' responses and lack thereof speak volumes to their complicity and that severely damages their credibility in the areas of business in which they reside. It's about trust, and I no longer trust PWCC, PSA or BGS in any way. Pointing out other instances of such malfeasance among the hobby doesn't CHANGE that, so you're confused if you think it does. Pointing out some stuff about Probstein doesn't make THIS go away, sorry.

It isn't about it going away.

I am just laughing at all of the self righteous people that think they are somehow noble for not bidding in PWCC auctions when funny business has been going on forever.

[Snapolit1]

It’s simply amazing that’s a major swath of this board has apparently not been participating in PWCC auctions for sometime, yet in the past year I’ve been outbid on over 95% of the high end items I’ve bid on.

I call bullshit.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The card business is a dirty business and you just have to do your best.

Yet here you are sticking up for entities within the hobby who are clearly not on the up and up.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Yet here you are sticking up for entities within the hobby who are clearly not on the up and up.

I am not really sticking up for anyone. I realize the landscape and it is what it is.

I am simply saying I will continue to bid because they get the best stuff and I think others will too.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

It isn't about it going away.

I am just laughing at all of the self righteous people that think they are somehow noble for not bidding in PWCC auctions when funny business has been going on forever.

You are laughing at people for 'doing their best'? That's YOUR sentiment. I can't tell if your'e trolling or just dumb, because it's obvious you don't believe a word you say.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I have actually probably bought more cards via Probstein.

He does a fine job but their packaging is awful compared to PWCC.

The same name I sent you in a PM yesterday sends to both. It is common knowledge.

Like you I am not naming names on this board.

Anyone who thinks that somehow this is relegated to one auction house is dreaming. One of the reasons I think it is more prevalent to PWCC is they run a very serious business and do it well. The cash advances and use of cards as credit to buy more just leads to more submissions and the more submissions they get the more bids they get and once more the more submissions they get. It isn't rocket science.

Probably six years ago I got a serious warning on the CU message board from the moderator because I had accused someone of bidding on their own cards in a Probstein auction. The next day the person came into the thread and admitted it and the bids were canceled. This was at a similar time when Rick kept having a guy from NJ win auctions that he previewed in person and they would get sent to PSA and bumped and back in the next months auction.

The card business is a dirty business and you just have to do your best.

It's difficult to navigate for sure. I avoid quite a few sellers on anything significant, but that only gets you so far because cards circulate and I am sure I don't always spot the bad ones. Buying lower grades than I used to might have helped some or at least limited the exposure, but again, likely an imperfect solution.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I know right?

Funny how the Blow out detectives haven't found any cards linked to him

edited maybe one or two bought, none sold I believe

It's difficult to find something you're not looking for.

[sportscardtheory]

I can't stand dishonest people and this guy is talking out of both sides of his mouth. He says we have to be careful in this hobby then says he laughs at people for being careful in this hobby. Seems legit.

[HRBAKER]

So if you decide to stop or not start doing business with someone bc you believe they engage in conduct detrimental to the "hobby," you are "self-righteous" because there has always been misconduct going on?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

It’s simply amazing that’s a major swath of this board has apparently not been participating in PWCC auctions for sometime, yet in the past year I’ve been outbid on over 95% of the high end items I’ve bid on.

I call bullshit.

They might have done you a favor by outbidding you, Steve.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So if you decide to stop or not start doing business with someone bc you believe they engage in conduct detrimental to the "hobby," you are "self-righteous" because there has always been misconduct going on?

That seems to be his logic. That and he says be careful in this hobby, but if you are he's laughing at you.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It's difficult to find something you're not looking for.

yes, reminds one of Diogenes of Sinope. Almost poetic Jesse!

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

You are laughing at people for 'doing their best'? That's YOUR sentiment. I can't tell if your'e trolling or just dumb, because it's obvious you don't believe a word you say.

I am certainly not dumb. You don't get to the position in life that I am at and be dumb.

No trolling. I just think you guys are fooling yourselves if somehow boycotting PWCC is going to save you.

If PWCC goes down the consignments will flow elsewhere and the process starts all over.

[sportscardtheory]

Isn't anyone free to expose hobby fraud? You want others to do the work for you? PWCC, PSA and BGS have been outed. It's not on everyone else to expose others. Seems like you are just deflecting.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So if you decide to stop or not start doing business with someone bc you believe they engage in conduct detrimental to the "hobby," you are "self-righteous" because there has always been misconduct going on?

It sounds good to say I won't bid on PWCC cards. It is noble to put ethics above the pursuit of cards. That said I am not boycotting any one seller because the same risk exists everywhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

yes, reminds one of Diogenes of Sinope. Almost poetic Jesse!

He might have to look long and hard for the honest man in this hobby.
At least among the major players.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Isn't anyone free to expose hobby fraud? You want others to do the work for you? PWCC, PSA and BGS have been outed. It's not on everyone else to expose others. Seems like you are just deflecting.

No one is happy about this situation.

I got smart to the hobby years ago and realize it isn't perfect.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I am certainly not dumb. You don't get to the position in life that I am at and be dumb.

No trolling. I just think you guys are fooling yourselves if somehow boycotting PWCC is going to save you.

If PWCC goes down the consignments will flow elsewhere and the process starts all over.

Seems like you don't care at all. So why are you even in these threads? To tell everyone there is fraud in the hobby and that you couldn't care less.

KthanksBye

[sportscardtheory]

Guy's got a huge PSA collection. No wonder he's running shadow interference/deflection. Many of the nay-sayers are just people with huge investments in PSA/BGS, have spent a ton with PWCC and are just here to protect their investments.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Guy's got a huge PSA collection. No wonder he's running shadow interference/deflection.

Yes I do have a huge PSA collection.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't agree with Dave obviously on some of this but the attacks on him are unfair. He's a good man in my opinion. His point of view is that fraud is pervasive so if you want to keep collecting at all, it isn't rational just to selectively cut off the fraudster of the day, you have to be careful everywhere. I get that.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Seems like you don't care at all. So why are you even in these threads? To tell everyone there is fraud in the hobby and that you couldn't care less.

KthanksBye

To participate just like you. It seems the only opinion that is allowed is I won't do business with PWCC.

I am one of the collectors who simply will look at all cards that come for sale.

[sportscardtheory]

By telling us he's laughing at us for having principles? Great guy.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't agree with Dave obviously on some of this but the attacks on him are unfair. He's a good man in my opinion. His point of view is that fraud is pervasive so if you want to keep collecting at all, it isn't rational just to selectively cut off the fraudster of the day, you have to be careful everywhere. I get that.

Thanks Peter.

This is exactly what I am getting at.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

By telling us he's laughing at us for having principles? Great guy.

I do find it funny how people respond to moments of crisis.

I laughed at the idiots who burned Nike apparel and the idiots who threw away expensive razor blades too.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

To participate just like you. It seems the only opinion that is allowed is I won't do business with PWCC.

I am one of the collectors who simply will look at all cards that come for sale.

Oh lord. As if you aren't allowed your opinions. You are the one "laughing" at people for standing up for what they believe in. Remember when I said "You do you". I do.

[sportscardtheory]

Does anyone else see that this guy is essentially saying ignore people who commit fraud, just buy cards anyway. lol Great guy seems legit. A I expected to take this seriously?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He might have to look long and hard for the honest man in this hobby.
At least among the major players.

yes funny like Brent

His (Diogenes) father minted coins (Huigens antique shop) for a living, and Diogenes was banished from Sinope (PSA) when he took to debasement of currency (trimming and shaving edges lessening value) yet was searching for an honest man ( writing up tenets)

Bit of stretch...ok maybe a need a break from the drama

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

yes funny like Brent

His (Diogenes) father minted coins (Huigens antique shop) for a living, and Diogenes was banished from Sinope (PSA) when he took to debasement of currency (trimming and shaving edges lessening value) yet was searching for an honest man ( writing up tenets)

Bit of stretch...ok maybe a need a break from the drama

Some things never change. Shill bidding probably was pervasive in the Agora.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Does anyone else see that this guy is essentially saying ignore people who commit fraud, just buy cards anyway. lol

If you spend all your time trying to tip toe around every shady hobby character, you’re not going to enjoy the hobby.

[VoodooChild]

Due to a new job and moving from MD to AL, I haven't posted much in the past couple of years. Only 420 (ha...nice!!) posts in the past 6.5 years. Although I have still been actively collecting/buying.

I both purchased from and consigned to PWCC in the past. I did VERY well with my consignments. I do not buy anywhere close to high-end/graded cards and while I still collect modern, I don't even pay attention to graded modern stuff. That concept doesn't even make sense to me. Look, I have defended PWCC in the past but only when the accusations were just shilling. I knew that shilling had some effect on the prices realized but that was a problem with the eBay format as a whole. I thought factors such as having auctions every month that spanned pre-war to modern in all sports, being able to combine shipping and not having to pay until auction close, and being able to set snipes and not having to stay up all night/early morning to see if you won, all played into the prices people were willing to pay. I still believe all of that by the way.

However, I answered this poll that I won't buy from or consign to PWCC again and I won't. They should have to pay some serious consequences for their role in this fraud scandal but I'm skeptical. I probably won't buy from Probstein either and I may just be done buying pre-war from eBay altogether. I may actually be done with PSA too. I don't need any "hard" evidence to make up my own mind that PSA is involved with all this shady stuff. Somebody got paid off I'm sure of it. So, where does that leave me? Do I only buy SGC? I like Al's response to all of this, so do I only buy from LOTG? I don't know what to do yet. I'm pretty pissed off but I am not naive. I knew this stuff was going on since I was a kid in the early 80's. There were rumors about my local card shop owner trimming cards back then. And even though Gary/and all card "doctors" are really to blame for this, the thing that pisses me off the most is how PSA spends 10 seconds "examining" a card, slaps a b.s. grade on it, charges way too much, and somehow most people (including me) consider them the experts in the field. Ha....I think I just talked myself into being done with PSA and maybe even graded cards in general.

Life is too short. I got back into this hobby for fun and I am going to return to that. I'll keep my pre-war collection in tact and enjoy it when I can. I'll still enjoy buying raw modern cards and keeping up with the hobby as well. I'll stay connected with my favorite teams (Pirates, Steelers, Penguins) through this hobby but will not consider it a financial investment ever again. It's just cardboard, right.

[MULLINS5]

Some collect cards. Some collect slabs. Pwcc is a great source for slabs. If that's what you're into, it makes perfect sense to continue doing business with them. I get it.

[clydepepper]

This message is to recognize that Peter Spaeth has contributed mightily to this thread...more than any human should be expected to contribute.

He is obviously very passionate about the subject and I do hope that he gets some resolution for his efforts.

That's Peter 46 posts - everyone else - 145.

Totals shared by someone who, evidently, has nothing better to do...which is fairly pathetic.

[JeremyW]

The way I see it is that PWCC has been knowingly selling cards to a known card doctor & then reselling the doctored cards for him, many times over. Somehow PSA is unable to catch this doctoring.

There are people here who could care less.

Do I have that right?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

The way I see it is that PWCC has been knowingly selling cards to a known card doctor & then reselling the doctored cards for him, many times over. Somehow PSA is unable to catch this doctoring.

There are people here who could care less.

Do I have that right?

in some instances, PWCC_Auctions won cards from Pre_war_card_collector which were then altered and resold I believe.

Also, I feel there is some discrepancy in which Moser's altered cards were actually consigned by him directly, or if they were cards won by Moser at the direction of PWCC to be resold just 3 months later

[AustinMike]

I have never consigned anything to PWCC and looking back at my records for the last 4 years, I see that I have only bought from PWCC 4 times in that span. I'm strictly a Mantle, Post cereal collector so there aren't a whole lot of items that I'm interested in.

But, I will not be buying from PWCC anymore. In fact I started yesterday. PWCC had a Mantle item I was interested in and had in my watch list. It ended at a price slightly less than what I would have put in for my maximum. PWCC didn't lose much by me not bidding and I know boycotting them won't have much affect on them.

But, based on the email Peter provided regarding Brent's acknowledgment of Moser and what Moser does to cards plus Brent's attempt to redefine alterations in order to whitewash his activities, my opinion is that Brent is dishonest and I refuse to do business with people that I have reason to believe are dishonest.

[irv]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yes... mid-grade is impacted perhaps the most. There is a new flood of exposed cards that has not even been discussed here...

Anyone who voted for the 3rd option in the poll really needs to read the Mantle thread on Blowout. If it’s too long for you, just review pages 110 - 116 which are the most recent. These card doctors can even repair actual tears in the card and get them past PSA. The scope of this is far wider than PSA portrays, and likely much more prevalent than many people here are aware.

vvvvv VIEW PAGES 110 - 116 BY CLICKING LINK vvvvv

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=116

Its crazy how many have been outed to date. The news of this scandal is spreading lik crazy. Many FB groups are aware of it now and are also spreading the word through other forums and media sites such as Twitter and Instagram, to name a couple.

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The card business is a dirty business and you just have to do your best.

And yet you keep contributing to/condoning the behavior?

Originally Posted by JeremyW

The way I see it is that PWCC has been knowingly selling cards to a known card doctor & then reselling the doctored cards for him, many times over. Somehow PSA is unable to catch this doctoring.

There are people here who could care less.

Do I have that right?

I have no doubts whatsoever PWCC and Moser were in bed together and Brent told Moser what cards were good candidates to be doctored.
It was a win win for both of them. Higher graded/nicer cards for PWCC brought the $$$ and the popularity that Dpeck admires so much, and Moser made out like a bandit.
I also wouldn't be surprised if Brent Mastro took a share of the winnings Moser made selling his doctored cards but who knows what agreement they had in place between them?

How anyone could continue to support these types of people is doing nothing to help the hobby but, blindly to them, are damaging it further.

Greed is what caught PWCC and Moser and Greed will be what sinks the people who continue to support them when this hobby grinds to a halt or has a huge correction.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Does anyone else see that this guy is essentially saying ignore people who commit fraud, just buy cards anyway. lol Great guy seems legit. A I expected to take this seriously?

It has never been a secret in the hobby in my opinion that cards have been worked on. To what degree is debatable and to what degree collectors are concerned is debatable.

I don't pretend to know what is right I just know that cards change hands outside of PWCC that could just as easily change hands through them.

There is no magic formula to completely avoid fraud in the sports collectibles hobby. It exists. You do the best you can.

Everyone is at different point in their collection. It is easier for someone with few graded cards to say the hell with the hobby. I have a lot so naturally I hope the hobby moves forward. I just believe that there is no perfect way to completely insulate yourself from issues and cutting off the main source of highly collected trading cards is a lot tougher than many think.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

It sounds good to say I won't bid on PWCC cards. It is noble to put ethics above the pursuit of cards. That said I am not boycotting any one seller because the same risk exists everywhere.

Thank you, then they aren't all self-righteous.

Also, based on what appears to have been going on I would not agree that the same level of risk exists everywhere.

[drcy]

I just hope that people here and at the PSA forum who choose to continue buying from PWCC don't come back in the future to complain that they were cheated, scammed or shilled by PWCC or a card they won from PWCC turns out to be deceptively described/identified.

But, of course, I know will happen.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by drcy

I just hope that people here and at the PSA forum who choose to continue buying from PWCC don't come back in the future to complain that they were cheated, scammed or shilled by PWCC or a card they won from PWCC turns out to be deceptively described/identified.

But, of course, we all know this will happen.

You are assuming they all would care.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Thank you, then they aren't all self-righteous.

Also, based on what appears to have been going on I would not agree that the same level of risk exists everywhere.

I hope you're right Jeff but my thinking is that the nature of the search being done on BO is, understandably, skewed to one relationship which left an easier to follow paper trail. I think lots of venues are high risk depending on material.