Ty Cobb ..Separating Fact from Fiction

[JimStinson]

In response to an earlier thread where NET54 member Scott posted a facinating Ty Cobb letter from his collection written in 1960 in which a then seriously ill Cobb reflects on his own mortality.

Several years ago I wrote a research piece on Ty Cobb. As I got deeper into it I began to realize that most of the things that are today accepted as facts were fabrications , mostly created by an aspiring writer, forger & Con Man who befriended Cobb in his final years.
I was contacted by the Ty Cobb museum shortly after I wrote the story and they asked if they could use the study in their literature as it substantiated the data they had already assembled and wanted to set the record straight and reach a wider audience. Without making this post into a novel here are a few facts

1) In a poll of former "dead ball era" baseball players taken in the 1950's they were asked who was the greatest baseball player ever. The consensus was split between Honus Wagner & Ty Cobb
2) Cobb was an astute investor and became a millionaire by becoming a stock holder in "General Motors" and an unknown company called "Coca-Cola" many team mates and opposing players alike became wealthy as a result of his advice.
3) When Cobb climbed into the stands during a game to beat up a handicapped heckler it was after a long and loud diatribe that could be heard throughout the stadium of vile insults regarding Cobb's mother. Although it persisted the entire game, and after repeated requests to the manager to have the heckler removed it was not until team mates insisted Cobb take matters into his own hands which he did but not before showing tremendous restraint through 6 innings !!!!! . As a result he was banned and the entire Tigers team refused to play until his suspension was lifted believing his violence was 100% justified.
4) He was well liked and respected by almost all of his team mates & many opposing players. In fact every single person I've ever spoken to that knew Ty Cobb personally including Hall of Famer Bill Terry had nothing but high praise for him.
5) As a manager he was particularly adept at developing young talent and many of those he helped Including Hall of Famer and four time batting champion Harry Heilmann gave Cobb credit for their success.
6) His last two years in the ML 1927 & 28 were played with the Athletics. Connie Mack (who had seen everything there was to see in baseball) considered him one of the best "team" players and leaders he had ever managed.
7) Throughout the course of his "post" baseball life he regularly helped players who had fallen on hard times with generous cash contributions and insisted in remaining anonymous. Among those he helped were Hall of Famers Mickey Cochrane, Stan Coveleski and scores of others both in and out of baseball.
8) Always accomodating to fans he was a prolific letter writer and autograph signer. Long time collector Jeff M. who was a regular visitor to Cooperstown during Hall of Fame inductions in the 1950's once told me he spied Cobb reading the newspaper in the restaurant at the hotel one morning and had several items he wanted him to sign. Nervous about approaching him he finally got up the nerve and arrived at his table at the exact same moment as Cobb's fried eggs breakfast. He apologized for the intrusion and according to Jeff , ...Cobb set his breakfast aside offered him a seat , signed his items and insisted that signing autographs and talking baseball with a young fan was more important than his breakfast.
9) In his life through generous personal donations he established a college scholarship fund for Georgia residents that benefited both black and white students. Cobb was not a racist.
10) The "Cobb Memorial Hospital" and "Cobb Educational Fund" exist to this day and were funded entirely by his estate.
____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Leon]

Jim- That was great early morning coffee reading. Thank you.

[HRBAKER]

Thanks Jim.
I enjoyed that.

[Bob Lemke]

For the past 5+ years I've been reading microfilm of the Sporting News from the late-1940s through 1960.

The more I read these contemporary accounts of the aging Ty Cobb, the more I like him as a man.

[Scott Garner]

Thanks Jim!
That really helps explain why when I led his letters I always got the impression that he was very different than the popular opinion of what he was like.

[UnVme7]

I've read that only 3 representatives of baseball attended his funeral. Not sure if thats true, but its sad.

Guessing that a lot of people he knew had already passed?

[JimStinson]

Thanks guys , The Cobb information was factual but MINE was wrong
The Cobb letter in previous post was posted by Mike N. (sorry Mike)
One of the reasons I enjoy this hobby so much is in the case of Mike's Cobb letter, where something new is learned all the time.
I was always under the impression that because of all of the medication Cobb was on and his drinking mostly to ease his physical pain from his cancer, that he was kind of "out of it" the last two years of his life
The letter which was posted in the "April pick ups" thread clearly shows otherwise. He writes with amazing clarity only 15 months before his passing
_____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[7nohitter]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

In response to an earlier thread where NET54 member Scott posted a facinating Ty Cobb letter from his collection written in 1960 in which a then seriously ill Cobb reflects on his own mortality.

Several years ago I wrote a research piece on Ty Cobb. As I got deeper into it I began to realize that most of the things that are today accepted as facts were fabrications , mostly created by an aspiring writer, forger & Con Man who befriended Cobb in his final years.
I was contacted by the Ty Cobb museum shortly after I wrote the story and they asked if they could use the study in their literature as it substantiated the data they had already assembled and wanted to set the record straight and reach a wider audience. Without making this post into a novel here are a few facts

1) In a poll of former "dead ball era" baseball players taken in the 1950's they were asked who was the greatest baseball player ever. The consensus was split between Honus Wagner & Ty Cobb
2) Cobb was an astute investor and became a millionaire by becoming a stock holder in "General Motors" and an unknown company called "Coca-Cola" many team mates and opposing players alike became wealthy as a result of his advice.
3) When Cobb climbed into the stands during a game to beat up a handicapped heckler it was after a long and loud diatribe that could be heard throughout the stadium of vile insults regarding Cobb's mother. Although it persisted the entire game, and after repeated requests to the manager to have the heckler removed it was not until team mates insisted Cobb take matters into his own hands which he did but not before showing tremendous restraint through 6 innings !!!!! . As a result he was banned and the entire Tigers team refused to play until his suspension was lifted believing his violence was 100% justified.
4) He was well liked and respected by almost all of his team mates & many opposing players. In fact every single person I've ever spoken to that knew Ty Cobb personally including Hall of Famer Bill Terry had nothing but high praise for him.
5) As a manager he was particularly adept at developing young talent and many of those he helped Including Hall of Famer and four time batting champion Harry Heilmann gave Cobb credit for their success.
6) His last two years in the ML 1927 & 28 were played with the Athletics. Connie Mack (who had seen everything there was to see in baseball) considered him one of the best "team" players and leaders he had ever managed.
7) Throughout the course of his "post" baseball life he regularly helped players who had fallen on hard times with generous cash contributions and insisted in remaining anonymous. Among those he helped were Hall of Famers Mickey Cochrane, Stan Coveleski and scores of others both in and out of baseball.
8) Always accomodating to fans he was a prolific letter writer and autograph signer. Long time collector Jeff M. who was a regular visitor to Cooperstown during Hall of Fame inductions in the 1950's once told me he spied Cobb reading the newspaper in the restaurant at the hotel one morning and had several items he wanted him to sign. Nervous about approaching him he finally got up the nerve and arrived at his table at the exact same moment as Cobb's fried eggs breakfast. He apologized for the intrusion and according to Jeff , ...Cobb set his breakfast aside offered him a seat , signed his items and insisted that signing autographs and talking baseball with a young fan was more important than his breakfast.
9) In his life through generous personal donations he established a college scholarship fund for Georgia residents that benefited both black and white students. Cobb was not a racist.
10) The "Cobb Memorial Hospital" and "Cobb Educational Fund" exist to this day and were funded entirely by his estate.
____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

+1 I truly enjoy reading your insights Jim!

[mr2686]

Jim, there's been a little bit of discussion on this topic over the last few years on a couple of threads, and I've always had a hard time understanding the "myth" of Cobb's demeanor vs the many letters and notes that have been published from him (which all have seemed very cordial). I think between Stump and Dan Okrent (he called Cobb the great black mark on baseball in the Ken Burns series...like he would know), the Cobb myth has be perpetuated. I hope someday someone will write an accurate book on the man.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Jim, there's been a little bit of discussion on this topic over the last few years on a couple of threads, and I've always had a hard time understanding the "myth" of Cobb's demeanor vs the many letters and notes that have been published from him (which all have seemed very cordial). I think between Stump and Dan Okrent (he called Cobb the great black mark on baseball in the Ken Burns series...like he would know), the Cobb myth has be perpetuated. I hope someday someone will write an accurate book on the man.

Most of the modern day information came from Stump which was almost all fabricated , and from team mate Sam Crawford who was interviewed by Larry Ritter in "Glory of their Times" ....Crawford and Cobb WERE rivals so his dislike of Cobb was obvious , If Cobb had outlived Crawford maybe Crawford would be the villan today...

However to keep things in context , Ty Cobb was a FIERCE competitor ! You don't hit .367 over a career by just "showing up".. and he played in the dead ball era and was no choir boy , not too many of his contemporaries were. But he was certainly not the demon history has made him out to be.
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[byrone]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Most of the modern day information came from Stump which was almost all fabricated , and from team mate Sam Crawford who was interviewed by Larry Ritter in "Glory of their Times" ....Crawford and Cobb WERE rivals so his dislike of Cobb was obvious , If Cobb had outlived Crawford maybe Crawford would be the villan today...

However to keep things in context , Ty Cobb was a FIERCE competitor ! You don't hit .367 over a career by just "showing up".. and he played in the dead ball era and was no choir boy , not too many of his contemporaries were. But he was certainly not the demon history has made him out to be.
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jim@stinsonsports.com

Regarding Sam Crawford, was it not established fact that Cobb lobbied hard to have Crawford inducted into the Hall of Fame?

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by byrone

Regarding Sam Crawford, was it not established fact that Cobb lobbied hard to have Crawford inducted into the Hall of Fame?

Thats true ! and the following write up might make the issue clear. On a personal note I once owned a snapshot taken at "Toots Shors" place in NYC , In the 1950's Cobb and Crawford were seated together. Cobb was smiling and Crawford had a look on his face like he had just smelled a pile of sh*t..

In retirement, Cobb wrote a letter to a writer for The Sporting News accusing Crawford of not helping in the outfield and of intentionally fouling off balls when Cobb was stealing a base. Crawford learned about the letter in 1946 and accused Cobb of being a “cheapskate” who never helped his teammates. He said that Cobb had not been a very good fielder, “so he blamed me.” Crawford denied intentionally trying to deprive Cobb of stolen bases, insisting that Cobb had “dreamed that up.”

When asked about the feud, Cobb attributed it to jealousy. He felt that Crawford was “a hell of a good player,” but he was “second best” on the Tigers and “hated to be an also ran.” Cobb biographer Richard Bak noted that the two “only barely tolerated each other” and agreed with Cobb that Crawford’s attitude was driven by Cobb’s having stolen Crawford’s thunder.

Although they may not have spoken to each other, Cobb and Crawford developed an uncanny ability to communicate nonverbally with looks and nods on the base paths. They became one of the most successful double steal pairings in baseball history.

After Cobb died, a reporter found hundreds of letters in his home responding to letters Cobb had written to influential people, lobbying for Crawford’s induction into the Hall of Fame. Crawford was reportedly unaware of Cobb’s efforts until after Cobb had died
____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Jay Wolt]

Jim, nice write up of Cobb. My youngest is a big Cobb fan and when we picked him up from the 101st Airborne graduation at Ft Benning.
We went straight to the Cobb museum in Royston, GA inside Cobb's Memorial hospital.
Though the museum was closed when we got there, we both appreciated being there in Cobb's hometown, so it wasn't a wasted trip.

[byrone]

Cobb's reputation seems to have negatively distorted more than just about any other person I can think of. Why did his old teammates and friends not better defend him after he passed away? Why was there (seemingly) not much effort by media and even family to better present his legacy? For the past several decades it has been open season on him, and while I'm sure he had his numerous faults, as do we all, it really seems unfair to Cobb.

[JimStinson]

Setting the record straight is what started this thread ... So in a way we are doing it...This is from SMITHSONIAN.COM and pretty much explains what happened after Cobb passed away......

Stump’s True magazine article won the Associated Press award for the best sports story of 1962 and went a long way in cementing the public’s memory of the baseball great. “From all of baseball, three men and three only appeared for his funeral,” Stump wrote at the end of his story, as if Cobb died a despised man who had alienated opponents and teammates alike. But the Sporting News reported that Cobb’s family had told friends and baseball officials that they wanted his funeral (held just 48 hours after he died) to be private and requested that they not attend, despite offers from several baseball greats to serve as pallbearers. Most of Cobb’s closest baseball friends were, in fact, already dead by 1961.

Doctors, nurses and hospital staff who attended to Cobb in his final months later came forward to say they never observed any of the rude or abusive behavior attributed to Cobb in Stump’s article. And a friendship-ending argument Stump described in a dramatic scene between Cobb and Ted Williams never happened, according to Williams. “He’s full of it,” he said of Stump.

In addition, it should be noted that Cobb’s views on race evolved after he retired from baseball. In 1952, when many whites from the Deep South were still opposed to blacks mixing with whites both in and out of baseball, Cobb was not one of them. “Certainly it is O.K. for them to play,” Cobb told a reporter. “I see no reason in the world why we shouldn’t compete with colored athletes as long as they conduct themselves with politeness and gentility. Let me say also that no white man has the right to be less of a gentleman than a colored man, in my book that goes not only for baseball but in all walks of life.” In his last year of life, Cobb may have shown a cantankerous side, but it seemed reserved for the state of baseball, which he saw as over-reliant on the home run and lacking in players of all-around skill. Willie “Mays is the only man in baseball I’d pay to see play,” he said not long before he died
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jim@stinsonsports.com

[travrosty]

I guess he made a lot of money from coca cola stock but a LOT of money in general motors.

[UnVme7]

Ahh, that makes sense then...

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Cobb’s family had told friends and baseball officials that they wanted his funeral (held just 48 hours after he died) to be private and requested that they not attend, despite offers from several baseball greats to serve as pallbearers. Most of Cobb’s closest baseball friends were, in fact, already dead by 1961.[/B]


___________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Jcfowler6]

"Cobb" the movie based on Stump's book really was all a bunch of lies! The more I dig into Ty Cobb the more a fan I become. Thanks for sharing.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

8) Always accomodating to fans he was a prolific letter writer and autograph signer. Long time collector Jeff M. who was a regular visitor to Cooperstown during Hall of Fame inductions in the 1950's once told me he spied Cobb reading the newspaper in the restaurant at the hotel one morning and had several items he wanted him to sign. Nervous about approaching him he finally got up the nerve and arrived at his table at the exact same moment as Cobb's fried eggs breakfast. He apologized for the intrusion and according to Jeff , ...Cobb set his breakfast aside offered him a seat , signed his items and insisted that signing autographs and talking baseball with a young fan was more important than his breakfast.

I bet Cobb never responded to an autograph request this way.

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by sylbry

I bet Cobb never responded to an autograph request this way.

He actually did. There is an account of a collector who continually wrote to Cobb and Cobb eventually cut him off and said he would not sign any more for him.

[mighty bombjack]

Here is my Cobb auto, made out to a caretaker near the end of his life



A close up of the inscription. Hope it's legible.



The auction listing for this said that Cobb was sending the clear message that he wasn't guilty, but it certainly seems more tongue-in-cheek than that to me. Either way, I love it!

[JimStinson]

I love that photo....Baker is 100 miles away from the bag and Cobb's foot is so high it looks like he's trying to spear the hot dog vendor in the 2nd row...
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jim@stinsonsports.com

[thenavarro]

I came to an agreement to purchase this one last night, so it should be on the way to me soon. It's not signed, but I thought it was neat and worthy of picking up to go along with my other letter.

In this one, you can read where young Harold O'Neal, Jr. writes to Cobb and tells him about his grandpa playing with Cobb, mentions writing to Cobb before without getting a response, mentions how Cobb's suggestions have helped him in his ball playing abilities, but evidently makes the mistake of questioning why Cobb wrote his Life articles a certain way.

Ty doesn't even bother wasting a piece of his stationary on young Harold and proceeds to ignore most of his letter, concentrating on a defense of his Life series, and ending by basically telling Harold the reason he didn't get a previous reply was because he didn't follow autograph etiquette by enclosing a self addressed and stamped envelope. To add insult to injury, Ty didn't even sign his reply, LOL.

Here's the text of Ty's response in case you don't want to twist and strain to read his reply:

"Dear Harold,
I note the fault you found in my Life stories, not mentioning certain players. I had only 12000 words allotted to me to use, the subject was selected as given to me by “Life”. I did not choose. If you were a very careful reader of story before you formed and expressed an opinion, you would have seen and realized-I said Musial and Rizzuto were type and example of ball players of moderns who could have played on old timer teams. I had to use only 12000 words, of course Reese & many others Yes Feller is a real or was a fine pitcher not because he is your favorite, he with any other modern pitcher cannot be placed on an all time pitching staff you have to go to the old timers see records, that counts – How would you place any modern pitcher on all time – Johnson, Mathewson, Alexander, Walsh, Plank, Grove, old Cy Young many others- lets be right in all this Records

You to be right, as I was, should have enclosed for convenience an addressed and stamped envelope. I receive an average of 4 requests for autographs alone






Here's the envelope this was sent in, postmarked from Menlo Park. It's not even initialed front or back like Cobb sometimes did. Evidently young Harold wasn't getting anything resembling a signature

[footlong]

Originally Posted by vintagechris

He actually did. There is an account of a collector who continually wrote to Cobb and Cobb eventually cut him off and said he would not sign any more for him.

this was probably a note to old time collector conrad anderson. he wore out hall of famers in the late 60's and early 70's by sending them multiple mailing of numerous index cards. i saw his table at a show once. he had boxes upon boxes of signed index cards. i think sam crawford wrote back and asked him to stop sending. jim stinson have more to offer on this.

[Tom Hufford]

I don't think a link has been posted to this yet, but if you want much, much more on the Al Stump - Ty Cobb affair, this is the best and most complete ever published. Its from the 2010 edition of The National Pastime, published for the SABR convention in Atlanta that year. And, written by my friend and Ty Cobb distant relative Ron Cobb. I think its terrific!

(If you go to this link and get a malware notice from Google, you can ignore it. There never was any malware, the site is clean - but for some reason, the warning still pops up on an irregular basis. We've been unable to get Google to rectify it.)

http://sabr.org/research/georgia-pea...ed-storyteller

Enjoy!

[Mr. Zipper]

Great article, Tom. Thanks for sharing.

[TyrusRCobb]

I haven't posted in quite some time as I've found that as a very green collector I would be better served reading and learning. However, I couldn't resist posting on a thread dedicated to my favorite player. I've recently read Alexander's book. Clearly Cobb is one of, if not the greatest player to ever take the field. I'm wondering if any of you has anything other than anecdotal evidence that Cobb was not a racist. Other than what I've read, I have nothing proving that he was the racist many portray him to be.

Still, I can understand the reasons behind the racism (if such is truly the case) given the place and time of his birth. Cobb, being born in 1886 in rural Georgia is not far removed from the Civil War, the abolition of slavery and the following period of reconstruction. As such Cobb's supposed racism was simply the norm for the era and place. In fact the deep south, in many ways, (I'm in South Carolina) still seems to hold a grudge regarding the Civil War. You can still find people who refer to it as the war of northern aggression. I have friends who graduated from the Citadel Military College in Charleston, South Carolina, home of Fort Sumter where the first shot of the war is said to have been fired, who took a history class listed as the War of Northern Aggression.

If he truly was a racist does it diminish what he did on the field? Can we not both admire him as a ball player while also recognizing that he was a racist? Are the claims and stories found in Alexander's book held in the same light as Stumps deeply flawed work?

[byrone]

I own this Ty Cobb written letter, from January 30,1958. It was written to New Hampshire newsman Leo Cloutier, who held a sports celebrities dinner in NH each year. I think it provides awesome insight into Cobb the person, at least at that stage of his life. It is four pages in length, and was written after Cobb arrived back home in Georgia after having attended the event in New Hampshire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ty Cobb
Cornelia, Georgia 1/30/58

Dear Leo:-

I wish to report that we got through ok by train to Boston and then train to N.Y. left by plane for Atlanta and then up here some 90 miles by auto.

I have has some very much needed rest since return, at my age I cannot take it so well anymore, have had sleep and rest around the clock for 4 or 5 nights since arriving back. Coming there may be my last for some time. I have determined to set a fee above the fee I asked of you and to eliminate the several that are contacting me , amongst two or three others Toronto has asked me to come there in April. I hope they won't meet my terms. I feel an obligation to go where the fee will send a student to college for a year otherwise I cannot go as I find it a hard & trying task at my age also with other matters of my own I should try to cope with.

I wish to thank you for your patience also your kindness to me and should also say the contribution to the Cobb Educational Foundation. I have 29 boys & girls in college now and I derive a great pleasure and satisfaction in doing this. We have some very fine boys & girls with unusually high marks as we have the pick from all the higher education institutions of Georgia from the Dean of Freshman Classes as one of the trustees is head of all these institutions of Georgia. Also each applicant after our investigation must qualify on the grounds of having had to work & fight their way through freshman year and their parents have no financial ability to further their education Etc. Wish I had had more time to tell you about this.

Again my thanks & appreciation to you, you certainly put on and developed an unusual affair.

My hope is that our God will grace you in every way. My kindest regards to Mrs. Cloutier who was so very nice in burdening herself with me during your event.

My best to you

Sincerely

Ty Cobb

P.S. Thanks for your thought in sending me all the papers