authentic grade, new look

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Posted By: jay behrens 

Time bring up a hottly contested subject, the 'authentic' grade.

I am in the process of aquiring a nice Silver Age comic collection. When went to SGC's site to check about comic book grading I found they already do something similar for comic books.

When they grade a comic it recieves one of two different labels, blue for an unalter/unrestored comic and a red label for altered/resotred comics. It is graded as normal, but notes are made as to what was done and the quality level of the work done.

My question is, why can't they do this cards too instead of rejecting them for grading? This makes way too much sense

Jay

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Posted By: Scott M

Well, I don't know anything about comics and maybe restoration is considered normal. But I personally don't understand some of the already existing categories for graded cards. IE, NM7 (MC) which presumably means that the card WOULD be near mint except for the tiny detail that someone wrote on it. In my own humble opinion that detail makes the card Good. I think a large part of the problem is that people know believe that what a card is "worth" is dependand on a number on a slab. Heck I've got lots of VG cards that are NM EXCEPT - that doesn't mean that they should grade NM7 (*crease*)! Theres too many of these qualifiers - when at the end of the day the only qualifier should be do you like the card and if you do what are you willing to pay for it.

I could see too many ways to take the authentic grade and then take advantage of it. Plus if they started to give grades to restored cards we'd be flooded with Gem Mint 10's (Restored) with descriptions like THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN UNRESTORED IF I HAD THE TIME I'D RESUBMIT, HERES YOUR CHANCE TO OWN POSSIBLY THE ONLY GEM MINT 10 IN EXISTANCE - YOU BE THE JUDGE!!!! This is exactly why people shouldn't care about a slabbed card, I've never seen the advertisment for a NM(7) that the seller tells you was overgraded - grading is an opinion - I personally an a strict grader near the top of the scale but am probably soft near the bottom end - if a card had 4 very rounded corners and a small crease or two I often look at the card as G-VG or even VG (there was a day when a card could have 2 creases and be VG).

That said (probably in too many words) I would have no problem with Authentic with a grade of a 1, which I presume would be the lowest grade of a card.

Actually, my real opinion is that we shouldn't have all these graded cards!!! If people bought cards based on the appearance of the card instead of the corners of the card there wouldn't be a need for any of this stuff. I just continue to find it amazing that people who presumably collect baseball cards because they love baseball and the players who played, base their decisions on whether to buy a card on the white corners. It makes no sense to me - but then again theres lots of stuff I don't understand. I probably didn't really answer your question.

Regards

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Posted By: petecld

Sorry for the long reply

First off, crooks will take advantage of any system a company uses and fools will always be fools. You can't say, "No, can't do that because. . . " since no system is 100% fool proof and why cater to crooks and fools. cater to the majority who will use the system wisely.

There are a few details not mentioned that may ease some of your fears. I think the CGC system is the best one used. When a comic is graded and restoration has been found it isn't just graded and given a qualifier. If the comic in it's current state (after restoration) is Very Fine, the label would clearly read "Apparent VF (#.#)" and given a different color label as well as a list of the restoration found done to the book. If a buyer chooses to ignore that information just because the seller says CGC is wrong then that is his/her prerogative and they deserve what they get.

Also, restoration IS NOT accepted in the comic collecting field. A restored book in NM condition will sell for a small fraction of a book in NM un-restored condition. CGC is smart for thinking they shouldn't cater to one mind set. Their approach covers everything. They are making money on every submission AND helping the future buyer in the process. That's a win-win situation in my eyes. I wish SGC would do the same. SGC could do the same or just label the card "Altered" or "trimmed" and mention no grade at all. Maybe instead of black liners in the holders they could use blue or red to slab trimmed or altered cards.

Your first question might be, "Well, the submitter could just take the card out of the holder?" Fine, so what. People are doing that now. or "The seller could say SGC was wrong and put it in the wrong holder?" Well, again, if a potential buyer CHOOSES to ignore what a 3rd party who doesn't benefit from the sale over someone who WILL benefit from the sale then they are free to do so and deserve whatever they pay for. Like I said, fools will always be fools. SGC will have done their job properly and there is no way anyone can hold anything against them.

I see nothing wrong with having a card in an SGC holder with any of these labels:

- "Authentic" (with no grade at all) (Done at submitter request)

- "Trimmed" (with no grade or "Apparent XXXXXXX" grade)

- "Altered" or "Restored" (with no grade or "Apparent XXXXXXX" grade)

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Posted By: David (hankron on tv)

There was a big debate over this before. I overall agree with Scott's arguments. I'm not for an 'authentic' grade but see its practical purspose for rare circumstances, like a trimmed T206 Honus Wagner, 33 Goudey Lajoie or some brand new but trimmed discovery.

The valid point that was given against an authentic ony (no grade given) label, is that as we all know cards can often look better within a slab of plastic. This means that if no grade or similar descrition is given, the seller can take advantage with the fact that some problems are hidden.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...Comic Auctions, running simultaneously. Early last year, among a dozen or so other Comic Auctions, I ran two CGC graded NM- 9.2 X-Men 19s simultaneously. The differences were DRASTIC, as the scans indicated.
The first I described as: CGC 9.2, but actually closer to the average 9.6 NM+ (equivalent in card grading to a PSA 9) with brilliant colors, snow-cover-whites, white pages, and appearing virtually flawless.
The second copy of the same issue I described as: CGC 9.2, but actually more indicative of the average 7.5 VF- (equivalent in card grading to a PSA 6). It had "return copy paint" sprayed on the top (when they bundled comics for return to the distributor, and they arrived for re-distribution for other than disposal at periodical outlets, the "rack-jobbers" sprayed paint across the top of the bundles)that had DRIPPED in many places down the front and back covers, weak corners with dog-ears, multiple spine stresses, surface dirt, etc. etc.
The high res super quality scans that I'm known for beautifully verified my analyses of the actual grades and so did the final auction prices! The better copy, which at the time should have brought approx. $150..brought in nearly DOUBLE that figure, while the dreck, graded the same by CGC, brought about $80 (just a little more than what a CGC VF- was expected to fetch). Even though they were left in, scanned in, and sold in their original 9.2 unrestored Blue top holders!

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Posted By: Scott M

Well, I understand your point of view and if the Authentic/Restored/Trimmed were automatically given a grade of 1 then I'd say that it would serve the purpose without too much potential for harm.

Obviously, since I don't use grading services it doesn't really matter what I think.

On a different front - its getting hot here in Texas - just washed the car and I'd say right now I'd get a grade of about 2 - Fair with a good chance for survival.

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

There are a few problems with slabbing altered material.

If grades are assigned, and a note is made that the card is altered, it is possible that demand for altered material could increase, which would increase supply. If a certified altered 9 were ever valued higher than a certified 6, people would play that game. Certifying altered cards legitimizes them, and at that point it becomes acceptable to create them, so we get more of this nonsense.

If altered cards are slabbed but no grade is assigned, it would be nice to think that the stuff would stay in the slabs, but it's possible that demand for this material could be from those who are going to break it out. So I am afraid that in this case, slabbing altered cards would increase the rate at which they circulate.

bruce

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Posted By: jay behrens

You'll need to ask an expert in the comic field, but I don't think the fact that CGC grades restored comic has caused an increased demand for restored comics.

Personally, I want an unaltered card. But if the majority of the public wants altered cards, then that is there choice. No one will force you or me to buy them and the customer will know what they are buying.

Besides, I am sure the same thing would with cards that has happened with comics, 2 cards with the same grade, but one is altered, the other is not and the unaltered one will sell for far more than the altered card. The people that buy these cards will be the same people that already buy altered cards. They care more about the appearance of the cards than wether or not is in it original state or not.

No one should be so concieted to think that their version of collecting is the only acceptable way of collecting or that something look upon with distain should be treated the same way by everyone. It would be a pretty boring world we all thought the same.

Jay

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I don't care what people collect. Like I said, I'm concerned that increasing the demand for altered material will increase the supply.

If people are encouraged to alter cards, this will increase the amount of altered material that is out there, and some of this will end up being sold as un-altered.

If a card is declared to be "mint but trimmed" by a good grader, how likely do you think it is that this card is going to get crossed over into a PRO-9 slab, or sold raw as mint?

There is no need to legitimize the stuff.

bruce

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Posted By: leon

I started and instigated the whole debate last time. I went as far as having Derek Grady convinced that SGC should give it a try. I told him I would put it on the board for debate and we could see. There were more people against slabbing "without a grade" than there were for "slabbing with grade", as is now done. I think folks will take cards out of slabs anyway so why not give the other "forms" of grading a chance. As I recall I wanted a slabbed card, without a grade, that said "authentic" or "altered", but no grade. There were all kinds of reasoning why it wasn't going to be good and the world would erupt in huge clouds of smoke so Derek blew it off.....I gave it a valient try.....regards all...

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Posted By: jay behrens

altered cards are already being legitimized by the grading services. The only difference right now is that people are unknowingly buying altered cards becuase they are not labeled as such.

If the majority of the collectors out there want altered cards, then why not let them have them. Taking that logic further, that would me a reduction in the number of unaltered cards, thus driving up the price of any card that is not altered beucase collectors like you and me won't touch altered cards.

Bruce, as I said before, no one should force their collecting style on someone else, which is what you want to do. If there is a demand for graded altered cards, then let that market flurish. I'd rather see altered cards slabbed so that unsuppecting newbies can't get suckered, then see then scams and cons that go on now. Not this would end it, but the situation would be better.

Jay

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Posted By: MW

Jay & Leon --

The basic idea and underlying tenet of professional grading services is to reduce the number of altered cards in the marketplace by legitimizing only those cards that are UNALTERED. To do the opposite, would promote altered crap and return us to the hobby mischief of the late 1980s and early 90s when some dealers took out full-page ads in SCD promoting their "razor-sharp" wares.

High-grade and even some medium-grade vintage issues have value because they are either difficult to find, or difficult to find in high grade. To emphasize encapsulation at the expensive of authenticating and slabbing legitimate, unaltered material, also promotes another activity -- the ALTERATION of rare issues. Think about it. If a market develops for cards that appear to be Mint, but are really trimmed, and the prices for such material become greater than that for lower grade cards in their unaltered states, then existing populations of original vintage material will dwindle as smartly packaged miniature baseball card guillotines begin to make their appearance at cardshows across the United States. Also, "certified card doctor" and "restoration specialist" will become more than just "honorary" degrees among hobby scalawags.

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Posted By: David Vargha

I think altered (but authentic) cards should receive a grade of 1A (Poor/Fair because of alteration). Then the marketplace can determine whether the appeal of the card makes it a "high end" 1A or a "low end" 1A. There is always a market for these cards. I sold a 1949 Bowman Phil Rizzuto card that would have been an 8 oc or straight 6 if some genius hadn't tried to power erase the right border to make it "centered". It was still "worth" $49 to the winning bidder on eBay. Encapsulation doesn't guarantee that the card won't be cracked out and sold to the unsuspecting, but I do believe it lowers the odds of such an occurence.

One small clarification on Scott's post -- "MK" (mark) is the designation for a card with writing on it. "MC" is for "Miscut" (0/100 centering side to side or top to bottom). I do agree that MK is a bogus designation, however.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: MW

"expense" not "expensive"

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Posted By: David Vargha

I concur wholeheartedly that legitimate grading (a la PSA and SGC) has helped immensely in driving out the charlatans and back-alley physicians who did their nasty work on cards. I still stand behind a "1A" rating and have faith that the marketplace would not price even the nicest looking "1A" above a ratty looking VG 3. Perhaps I am wrong on this, but I can't seem to remember many cards that were raw and sold with full disclosure of the alteration that sold for above the price of a graded 1 or 2.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: jay behrens

If companies do grade altered cards, I too would prefer that they just give them a 1 grade with note of alterations, since by the defanition of grading, any alteration automatically makes the card grade 'poor'.

Jay

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<If people are encouraged to alter cards, this will increase the amount of altered material that is out there, and some of this will end up being sold as un-altered.>>

Two points I think you are ignoring. First -- restoring a card to very nice shape is an expensive and time-consuming process.

Second -- there is a big difference between card restoration and trimming (IMHO). With trimming, there is much less of the card there, which presents a problem. In comic books -- I don't think anyone cuts off the borders of the pages because they show some wear. Re-coloring, adding fibers, erasure, crease removal are all forms of restoration that keep all of the original card there.

I think most advanced collectors avoid trimmed cards -- you can't turn a VG/EX card into a NM/MT one without trimming away most of the border -- and then what are you left with? Something ugly that doesn't represent anything close to what it was supposed to originally.

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Posted By: petecld

Altered items being sold as un-altered is a problem we have already so why would anyone be against having these items clearly marked a such is beyond me.

I also don't understand why some fear making this type of material legitimate. One man's trash is another man's treasure. EXCUSE ME if I don't have $100,000 for a Mint '33 Goudey Ruth. Maybe I do have $1,000 for a "restored to Mint" '33 Goudey Ruth that I'd be happy and proud to own. If that is what I want who is anyone to say I shouldn't have the opportunity to buy such a card.

They are still authentic items. Using the logic of the anti-authentic crowd we should just take down the Statue of Liberty, burn the Mona Lisa and paint over the Sistine Chapel. THEY ARE ALL RESTORED!!!! Are Baseball cards more sacred? Please.

The problem isn't restoration, It's the crooks who don't divulge this fact to potential buyers. Slabbing and labeling these items would in fact make them impossible to pass off as un-altered to future buyers unless they are complete fools in deep denial.

Also, trimming the edges of comics IS a serious problem. I have seen cases where a comic that is "restored to VF/Nm" selling for what a comic in good un-restored condition would sell for so clearly even though CGC has been slabbing restored material the market has decided they aren't worth what un-restored pieces bring and I suspect the same would happen in the card collecting field.

I just feel that companies like CGC, SGC, and PSA shouldn't cater to one type of collector and should remain completely unbiased toward any and all submissions and simply do what they say they are there for - authenticating and/or grading.

It's not like when they do find your card trimmed you get your money back from them, so why not just slab everything and label it for EXACTLY what it is.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

CGC denotes not only that the book IS altered, but WHAT THE ALTERATION WAS, and how severely it was done. The restorative procedures themself is what dictates the book's value. For example:
Amazing Spiderman 1 Unrestored VF+ CGC 8.5 ...$10,000 base price (ease of comparison).
Graded restored VF+ CGC 8.5 but with only a light cleaning and pressing... $6000
Graded the same but with spine reinforced and light color touch (SLIGHT) .....$4000
The same as above BUT MODERATE work (more than slight)....$2800
Same as above but EXTENSIVE work...$1500
Now there are MANY different possibilities, permutations and procedures that can be done and recognized by CGC and they usually are notated on the CGC restored label as Trimming, color touch, pieces replaced, staples replaced, married interior pages (pages replaced), tape removed, etc. etc. and three different levels: slight, Moderate, and Extensive, done by either Professional or Amateur restorers are also noted all giving a VF+ 8.5 Spiderman 1, and endless possibility of value based on it's specific finding. I just listed a few of the possibilities. Restored collectibles have been around for years, well before it was unfasionable to do so. I remember as a child, buying "space fillers" for my stamp collection. Spending $10 against $100 for those ultra expensive $1.00, $2.00, and $5.00 19th century issues. This was usually a stamp that had been torn when unhinged, or trimmed from a sheet and re-perforated. It looked a hell of a lot better than a space that would have been empty for a long long time.

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Posted By: MW

I really don't see how any self-respecting grading company can knowingly embrace the encapsulation of altered cards. First, there would be an image problem. I certainly wouldn't want to run a grading company known for slabbing altered material. And I don't think it would matter if they also graded unaltered cards -- the perception would exist among some hobbyists that the grading company either condoned or promoted card doctoring by encapsulating altered material. So too, I can see how this might open up the floodgates for legal action. Putting an altered card in a holder would be extremely foolish. Can you even imagine the disclaimer that a grading company would have to possess to undertake such an action?

Sure, one could argue that it has already been done with CGC and comic books, but I think that's altogether a different case. Grading standards for comics largely evolved from the restoration process. Grading standards for baseball cards was a response to restoration procedures. The former was a measured inclusion. The latter was a measured and necessary response. To submit both collectibles to similar grading standards is to ignore their differing hobby evolution.

Next, I believe the demand among serious vintage collectors for "Altered - 1" cards would be extremely limited. Just think about it. What collector would want to have hoards of crap that has been "through the mill?" The closest comparison would be to cards encapsulated by PRO. Only instead of a 1 to 10 grade, the only qualifying number would be a one. To that extent, why wouldn't someone just send his or her card to PRO instead? Certainly, anything with a PRO 7, 8, 9 or 10 on it would sell for more than an SGC "Altered - 1." Why should a legitimate grading company embarrass themselves in such a manner? Wouldn't the encapsulation of altered cards unwittingly provide a foothold for ignominious grading companies to claim their cut cards are really trimmed treasures?

Third, the uniformity of "Altered - 1" or "Authentic" would be extremely misleading. Cards that had extensive repapering or were severely altered would bear the same classification as those that only had slight "modifications." Again, adopting such a grading policy would seem to encourage outrageous claims from some sellers and could potentially lead customers to be extremely dissatisfied with what they receive. After all, with some of the images that sellers use on eBay, who would be able to tell the difference between two encapsulated "altered - 1" 1914 Cracker Jack Joe Jacksons -- one of which was extensively repapered, recolored and restored, and one that had some slight bleaching near one of the corners? With a definitive 1 to 10 scale for unaltered cards, customers know what they're getting. With an "altered - 1" or "authentic" label, you're relying on the proper judgment of a bunch of baseball card contortionists.

To me, grading altered cards, in any form, is an extreme form of adding an illogically subjective qualification. Grading services should be paid to grade unaltered cards, not qualify those that are altered. Sure, I can see some positives to such a policy, but the disadvantages FAR outweigh any benefits.

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Posted By: jay behrens

CGC does detail the alterations done, so you only need to read the label and not have to rely on the scan to see the differences between cards.

Also, if grading companies are to comtinue in there current fashion without slabbing every card that comes in, then they should start refunding the fees for cards that reurned unslabbed. Why should the customer have to pay the same price to have one card slabbed another sent back ungraded and left raw.

Jay

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Posted By: MW

<< Also, if grading companies are to comtinue in there current fashion without slabbing every card that comes in, then they should start refunding the fees for cards that reurned unslabbed. >>


Then how about cards that you feel aren't graded properly? Should the grading companies issue refunds for those too? Isn't that one of the functions of getting material graded -- having a qualified expert evaluate the card for you? If a grader spends hours sorting through a bunch of trimmed and altered crap, shouldn't he be compensated?

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Posted By: leon

I agree with MW that even when a card gets sent back "unslabbed", for whatever reason, the grading company should still be compensated. They still took time to see that it was altered or ungradeable for whatever reason. Just as before in this debate I vehemently disagree with EVERYTHING else he said. I am not going to post anymore about this subject as it got totally worn out last time. regards all

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Posted By: MW

Leon --

I have a serious question for you. Besides your M116 Sporting Life Mathewson which has a small crease and for which you'd like a grade of "authentic," are there other non-unique circumstances (i.e., specific cards) that you can think of where a holistic policy of encapsulating ALTERED specimens would be good for the collector? Or are you just advocating the idea of "authentic" only?

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Posted By: MW

For those who think buying and selling encapsulated altered cards is OK, here's a good trial example:

Purchase a PRO graded card, bring it to me, and I'll write what's wrong with it on a sticker that I affix to the top of the holder.

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Posted By: leon

I said I wasn't going to post about it anymore but you asked a fairly simple question so what the heck. BTW, hope to see/meet you at the Nationals so I can see whom I am debating/jabbing with all of the time I met your brother last year and he is extremely gracious and was very hospitable. I am sure you wil be also........ I think grading an altered card is no worse than grading a fake card ala the Wagner's etc....that SGC already does. I don't know the specific answer, if there is a definitive one, to your question, but I will say that I would potentially buy a card that was graded "altered" SGC 10....if it was the only way I could obtain it....and I would (possibly) be happier with it encapsulated than not...but that is my opinion ....and probably a few others too....I just don't see a reason not to do it...and I don't think the arguments you made earlier are completely on target....as pointed out in the comics arena, by Dr.Koos, an altered/restored version almost ALWAYS goes for less than an unrestored one......anything else on this subject I will save for meeting with you in person.....regards all

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I understand slabbing a card because you can see all of it through a slab, but don't comics have all their content inside the covers? How do you enjoy them if they are encapsulated? Or is the point not to read them?

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

lend themselves well, to slabbing. It's a wonderful grading encapsulatory procedure for items that are basically two dimensional (cards, coins, etc.), but items with internal parts that will forever more be "invisible" (unless unslabbed). A Silver age comic is comprised of 11 individual components, 8 interior sheets of pulp-type/newsprint paper, printed on both sides, yielding 4 separate reading pages per sheet (32 in total), 2 staples, and a cover of higher paper quality. After being slabbed, we can only view the outer portion of that cover page (front and back), TWO PAGES of the 36 in total, that are present. Roughly 93% of the total surface area of the sum of the comic's components are now HIDDEN from view!

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Posted By: jay behrens

Why shouldn't you get a refund if you card is sent back ungraded? You are paying to have the card graded and slabbed. If they don't do either, then you rightfully should get your money back becuase they did not provide the service that you paid for. At the moment that a card is determined to be alter, the whole grading/slabbing process stops. There is no time spent grading the card and no expense to them for slabbing the card. So once again, why should you not get a refund if they won't slab it. Slabbing the card is probably the most expensive part of the whole process.

Jay

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Posted By: jay behrens

Most people that say slabbing altered cards is a bad idea beucase it will lead to them taking over the hobby remind of the Red Scare people from the 60s who said that if Viet Nam falls then the dominoe effect will take over and the COmmunists will overrun the world.

Well, guess what. Viet Nam fell to the communists and the rest of the world did not follow. Not even one single country.

I really doubt that if altered cards are slabbed that they will begin to take over the hobby. Serious collectors and investors would never buy them unless it's something truly rare. The only buyers would be the casual collector that wants the try and impress friends that don't know any better or someone who prefers style (looks) over substance (original state).

Jay

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

You are paying to have it *authenticated*, graded, and slabbed.

Also, if the fee they charge is less (or zero) if the card is bad, there is an incentive to put these in holders rather than reject them.

bruce

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Posted By: MW

Jay --

You're absolutely right...and PRO grading is our Gulf of Tonkin rallying cry.

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Posted By: MW

Bruce --

Good point.

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Posted By: jay behrens

but since your label of alterations is not in the slab, it too could be altered leading to an even further spread of communism :-p

Jay

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Posted By: MW

...and if you must know, my philosophical anguish is furthered perpetuated by my frequent encounters with Spalding baseball guides -- the altered card equivalent of the Marx's Communist Manifesto.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Well, guess what. Viet Nam fell to the communists and the rest of the world did not follow. Not even one single country.

Tell that to Cambodia.



DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: MW

Take THAT Jay! :P

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Posted By: jay behrens

Pol Pot was in power long before Viet Nam fell.

Jay

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Posted By: MW

The Communist Khmer Rouge came to power in Cambodia in 1975 as part of the vast upheaval caused largely by the spilling over of the Vietnam War. FACT! :p

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

The only thing about a baseball card is what it looks like, and how it got that way. A comic also has a printed story, and many pictures, a cover and DREADFUL paper. If your comic is falling apart, it makes sense to have the cover re-attached. A tear could be mended in such a way as to make it more legible. ANYWAY< I can undersdtand that restrored comics have value--but not, you'll notice, as high as unrestored ones in the same condition.

Actually, I have a fall, 1975 "Arcade" that never got brown, brfore or after I put it in mylar. It has the best collecting story of all time in it, by R. Crumb. It's about a phonograph record, and it's called "That's Life!"

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Posted By: petecld

Not a good example.

PRO cards are by definition "encapsulated altered cards". The don't need labels mentioning this fact.

The company logo does that.