Great thread, what about most under rated pre-war player?

[CMIZ5290]

Who should be in the hall but is not? Aside from shoeless jj

[rhettyeakley]

Hard to be more underrated (especially when it comes to his card prices) than Eddie Collins. He was one of the best but is just a "common" HOFer when you go sell his stuff.

I've always felt Lefty Grove is a bit underrated (as are most good 1930's pitchers--as it was a hitters era). Given the time he played and the #'s he put up (along with the Baltimore numbers from 1921 on as he was not "for sale" by Balto. to any of the Major League teams that were knocking down the door to get him) he is in my top5-6 greatest pitchers of all time.

As for those not in the Hall that should be I would recommend Browing, Stovey, Mullane, Deacon White and a few other 19th Century guys (especially those that played mostly in the Amer. Assoc. as they got/get NO LOVE from the powers that be.)
-Rhett

[novakjr]

I wouldn't necessarily call them Hall-Worthy, but Fred Merkle and Wally Pipp were pretty damn good. It's a shame that both of them are primarily remembered for one hitch in their careers. Merkle's boner and Pipp's headache.

Merkle had a pretty respectable 16 year career.
Pipp had a VERY respectable 15 year career. He even led the league in homers twice and triples once.

[Mark]

There's always George Sisler.

[TexasLeaguer]

Deacon Phillippe and Wes Ferrell are a couple of my favorites. Also, Tris Speaker is often overlooked, considering how good he was. Your average Joe doesn't know who Tris Speaker is.

[Robextend]

Not HOF worthy, but I think Mike Donlin is pretty underrated.

Also I am not sure why Jimmy Ryan is not in the HOF.

2500 Hits, 1600+ Runs 400+ SB plus other great numbers.

[CMIZ5290]

Rob- totally agree with mike donlin. He was a superstar and many experts thought, one of the best ever.

[novakjr]

George H. Burns had a pretty good 16 year career. .307 career BA, 1926 A.L. MVP, 2x WS Champion, led the league in hits twice, doubles once, and HBP three times.

[Doug]

I have a Cincinnati bias, but I think Tony Mullane should be in the HOF if Rube Marquard is...

[CMIZ5290]

What about ed reulbach? 2 shutouts in one day? No other major leaguer to my knowldedge ever did that. Also had great lifetime stats.

[CMIZ5290]

Do i dare mention hal chase?

[bcbgcbrcb]

Deacon White

[Writehooks]

Shocker had 20 or more wins for the Browns four seasons in a row in the early '20s and was a cornerstone of the Yankees staff in two stints in New York.
Thanks to the "grandfather" rule, he was also the last Yankee to legally throw a spitball after the pitch was banned in 1920. Should be in the HOF.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think Dave Parker is pretty comparable to the Rices Cepedas and Dawsons of the world.

[Tim Kindler]

Smokey Joe Wood. Dominating pitcher and a great fielder/hitter when the soup bone went bad.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think Dave Parker is pretty comparable to the Rices Cepedas and Dawsons of the world.

I agree, and if we are talking post-war I always have to mention Ted Simmons. I believe he is comparable to Fisk and Carter.

[E93]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

What about ed reulbach? 2 shutouts in one day? No other major leaguer to my knowldedge ever did that. Also had great lifetime stats.

My memory could be failing me, but I believe Tim Keefe once through back to back no-hitters in a double header. Please correct me if I am wrong.
JimB

Edited to correct myself: A quick google search found that he threw a one-hitter, then two-hitter in two games of a double header. Still not too shabby.

[Mikehealer]

I would think Bill Dahlen, considered one of if not the best SS of the late 19th and early 20th century seems to get overlooked when it comes to HOF consideration. Stat wise he was among the best, maybe the best when considering both offense and defense.

[Jason Carota]

I'll add my vote for Deacon Phillippe and Joe Wood. Phillippe's control was astounding, and Wood was an amazing all around player.

[SteveMitchell]

There ought to be adjustments made for players who made sacrifices to serve the nation in the military - especially in time of war. The late Cecil Travis is one who surely would be a Hall of Famer had not WWII intervened and shortened his career due to injuries he received.

(I'd also like to see those years of military service noted in official baseball records - like they used to be on the backs of 1950's and early 60s baseball cards.)

A few others who might be considered under-rated are: Wes Ferrell, Stuffy McInnis, and Robert T. Mathews - representing three different eras.

[Big Six]

I'd throw Lefty O'doul's name in to the mix...seemed to have his hand in just about every level of of baseball...minors (PCL), majors and his role as an ambassador bringing the game to Japan (in the Japanese HOF I believe!).

Oh, and he could hit...

[ethicsprof]

i make a pitch every couple of years on the board for ole gavvy or cactus cravath.
for his era, a homerun champion again and again and again

best,
barry

[D. Bergin]

"Indian" Bob Johnson had some pretty impressive stats for a guy whose cards are pretty much considered commons.

His career 162 game a season averages:


108 Runs 178 Hits 34 Doubles 8 Triples 25 HR's 112 RBI's 93 Walks 74 SO's .296 Avg. .393 OBP .506 Slugging .899 OPS


I guess he never had Frankie Frisch pushing for his induction.

[packs]

I think Larry Doyle is criminally under-rated and largely forgotten by most people. He was the best offensive second baseman of the National League during his career. When Doyle retired he was the National League career leader for all second basemen in slugging, hits, doubles, triples, total bases and extra base hits. In 1915 he was also the first second baseman to win the National League batting title since 1876. I don't understand how he wasn't elected to the HOF by his peers.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

We seem to do a similar thread every six months or so.

There are so many calls for Deacon White. I am starting to understand why, but see him as more of a "right place at the right time" type of pioneer in the way that his career unfolded. How much of what he accomplished was due to happenstance in a game that was then in its adolescence? I've always thought his brother Will to be deserving of enshrinement.

How Hank O'Day has been overlooked as an umpire is beyond me. He wasn't a very socially approachable man; I think this is the only reason he wasn't an early inductee. At the very least, he should have been inducted the same year as Klem.

[Wite3]

Sherry Magee! Gavvy Cravath, Mike Donlin, Ed Ruelbach.

[tbob]

Underrated pre-war playes? Deacon Phillippe, Ed Reulbach, Buck Weaver and most importantly Turkey Mike Donlin. Donlin had a very checkered career but as far as talent and production he posted star numbers.

[familytoad]

Now this dude is under-rated!

[Mark]

Originally Posted by packs

I think Larry Doyle is criminally under-rated and largely forgotten by most people. He was the best offensive second baseman of the National League during his career. When Doyle retired he was the National League career leader for all second basemen in slugging, hits, doubles, triples, total bases and extra base hits. In 1915 he was also the first second baseman to win the National League batting title since 1876. I don't understand how he wasn't elected to the HOF by his peers.

I agree 100%. Captain of the Giants and their key hitter during their glory years, and yet he is neglected by Hall voters.

[oldjudge]

Pete Browning, Dave Orr, Harry Stovey and Deacon White

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know y'all don't like statistics, but here are the players most comparable statistically.
1.Del Pratt (903)
2.Tom Daly (882)
3.Chuck Knoblauch (882)
4.Lou Boudreau (876) *
5.Placido Polanco (876)

Doyle hit .290 lifetime. he had 1800 hits. How is he a Hall of Famer?

[Mark]

I, for one, don't mind statistics as long as they are read in the context of their era. Everything that Larry accomplished took place before the advent of the live ball (the "rabbit ball" as the oldtimers called it). Back when the NY Giants were the Yankees of baseball, he was the best position player on the team.

[FrankWakefield]

When comparing statistics, an oft overlooked statistic is that of which years played. In failing to recognize the chronology of the game, it is easy to be deceived by differences in a particular statistic.

Dead ball, lively ball, bat physics, dirty balls, 154 game seasons, 162 game seasons, that one 140 game season, war years, night games, mode of travel, tight wound baseballs, lowering the mound, and much, much more.

I'm a big fan of Ed Reulbach. I love reading Mr. James' article about him in his first Historical Abstract. Reulbach was at the pinnacle of the Players' Association, and when the owners sorted out the Federal League threat, then Ed saw limited action, and it seems obvious to me, from what I've read in old Baseball Magazine articles, that the owners kept him on the bench most of the time. Otherwise, Ed would have added enough wins to get close to 200, and he'd probably be in the Hall. Smokey Joe Wood was a dominant player. White, Donlin, Cravath, O'Doul, Travis, and Dahlen were great players. Mr. McGraw held Fred Merkle in high regard, even after his infamy. Larry Doyle was a great player, notwithstanding the attempt at comparing him to players eras removed. In the mid 20s there was a shortstop at Pittsburgh, Glenn Wright, and for a few years he was perceived as one of the bright stars of the game, across both leagues. His brightness flickered and dimmed, and now few people, even here at this board, are aware he played the game.

Ruth could not have hit 60 home runs in 1903, not with the long, slender 36" or 37" bats of the day, and the soft, dirty baseballs that were kept in play. Not even a juiced Bonds could have done it in 1903.

[vintagecpa]

Not a Pre-WWII player, but I think Alan Trammel was a fabulous player.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by vintagecpa

Not a Pre-WWII player, but I think Alan Trammel was a fabulous player.

I couldn't agree more, not sure he should be a HOFer, but every bit as good as Ripken and Smith.

[kcohen]

I second the motion on Cecil Travis. Also want to put in a shout for Parisian Bob Caruthers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark

I, for one, don't mind statistics as long as they are read in the context of their era. Everything that Larry accomplished took place before the advent of the live ball (the "rabbit ball" as the oldtimers called it). Back when the NY Giants were the Yankees of baseball, he was the best position player on the team.

Hitting .290 in the deadball era is not exactly overwhelming, given the averages of the day. Bill James (sorry Ted!!) does give Doyle a decent rating, #20 all time among second basemen. Just ahead of Chuck Knoblauch and Dick McAuliffe, and just behind two dubious HOFers, Bobby Doerr and Tony Lazzeri.

[bbcard1]

Off the top of my head, underappreciated hall of famers would be Ott and Klein. One I have always thought was HOF worth, espcially compared to his contemporaries, was Laughing Larry Doyle. Good player, good leader.

[packs]

Peter, I think you're missing the point on the argument for Doyle. If you compare his numbers to those of players today, then sure they look weaker in comparison. But as I said in my post, when the man retired, he led all National League second basemen in most offensive catagories and was only a few games behind Evers for games played at the position. He was without a doubt the best offensive National League second baseman of his generation, potentially of all time at the time of his retirement, and that should earn him a spot in the HOF. He was Roberto Alomar in the dead ball era.

[tedzan]

During 1958 the "useful idiots" in Congress held Anti-Trust hearings on Baseball. These Senators made the mistake of calling Casey Stengel to
testify. For hours at end, Casey held court, and held them spell-bound.

After which Senator Kefauver called Mickey Mantle to testify. Mantle's only response to Kefauver...."My views are about the same as Casey's".


Well, whatever Frank Wakefield said in post #33....then, "my views are about the same as Frank W's".

Bill Dahlen, "Turkey" Donlin, "Cactus Gavy" Cravath, Lefty O'Doul, Ed Reulbach, and Cecil Travis should all be in the HOF. And, there is still some
hope for any these guys....as it was quite recent (1995) that Vic Willis was inducted into the HOF.

Some of the inexplicable HOF selections (or lack of) in the past 50 years is best exemplified by the Veteran's Committee election of Johnny Mize
in 1981. Mize was elligible for the HOF since 1959....so, why was Mize passed over by the HOF Committee for all those years ?
Even Bill James, with his "sabr-metrics", gives Mize a high rating. Better yet, Lawrence Ritter includes Mize in his book "The 100 Greatest Baseball
Players of All Time."

So guys, check-out Johnny's numbers....then, explain to me why Johhny Mize was not elected to the HOF thru the "front door", before 1981 ? ?


TED Z

[Bridwell]

As far as pre-war, I'd mention Ed Ruelbach, Deacon Phillippe, George Mullen, Jake Daubert, Joe Wood, John Kling, Tommie Leach, Bill Dahlen and Sherry Magee. All great ones, but I think we have enough HOFers from that era, though.

[CMIZ5290]

Ha! Wondering when someone was going to mention big cat john mize, him and my father were cousins, and he was a monster.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)

Black Ink Batting - 3 (518), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink Batting - 38 (643), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 52 (369), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 30 (312), Average HOFer ≈ 50

[Wite3]

I will say it if Adam W. doesn't....Lefty O'Doul!

[wolfdogg]

Originally Posted by Robextend

Not HOF worthy, but I think Mike Donlin is pretty underrated.

Also I am not sure why Jimmy Ryan is not in the HOF.

2500 Hits, 1600+ Runs 400+ SB plus other great numbers.

I agree with you on the Ryan......why is he not in?

[wolfdogg]

I still have to mention William "Dummy" Hoy for what he did for MLB and his stats aren't too awful either

[quinnsryche]

Pre War: Stuffy McInnis & "Indian" Bob Johnson
Post War: Steve Garvey & Dave "Cobra" Parker
All 4 should be HOF'ers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Johnson for some reason did not start his career until 27, which really hurt his lifetime stats.

[Kenny Cole]

Come on,

Cecil Travis lost most of 4 of his prime years serving our country in WWII. IMO, he gets credit for that. He also suffered frostbite during the battle of the bulge, which pretty well wiped him out post-war.

He was a hell of a shortstop. I don't think that is arguable. It seems to me that he shouldn't be debited too hard for losing 700+ hits and all of the other stats that the HOF deems important due to his service in WWII. IMO, losing the statistics that at least arguably would result in a HOF selection because you are serving our country is materially different from, for example, losing the statistics because you got hurt and couldn't finish your career. Getting hurt is part of the risk you assume when you play the game. Having to go fight on behalf of our country for 4 years isn't really a risk you assume when you sign up to play baseball, again IMO.

I'm not really sure how to compensate for that, but I don't think that the loss of 4 prime seasons due to military service is meaningless when you are looking at a statistical reason to elect, or not elect, a given candidate. Statistically, Cecil Travis got screwed by circumstances that were not personally related or baseball related. He was not a better or worse baseball player because of anything he did, or anything that was a result of the profession in which he engaged. He just lost 4 years.

In his case, I would submit that the statistics are far less important than they are in most when it comes to the HOF discussion. IMO, the question in my mind is, had he played those 4 seasons, would he be HOF worthy? Given that his candidacy is being discussed without them, I have to conclude that he would have been.

Kenny

[FrankWakefield]

I've wondered if the delay on Mize had to do with him playing with the Yankees and Cardinals. Lots of Yankees got into the Hall. Lots of Cardinals and Giants, too; many on merit, maybe a few from politics by Frisch and others. And politics may well have helped a Yankee or two. If that was the perception then a backlash to that might have happened. Slaughter would have been in the same boat. I recall the story about him sitting on the bench in the clubhouse, crying at the news that he'd been traded to NY. Was Mize abrasive with the media? Was that a two way street??