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  #1  
Old 11-12-2018, 06:51 PM
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Default Ohtani ROY, really?????

I guess Ohtani makes sense as the ROY if you compare his 162 game average with Andujar's 162 game average. Based on the 162 game averages, Ohtani is just marginally better, as a DH.

However, Ohtani played in only 104 games.

I will agree that Ohtani is a better (seldom used, often injured) pitcher than Andujar.


IMO, this is the second time in 3 years an Angels player has robbed a more deserving player of a post season award.
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Old 11-12-2018, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes View Post
I guess Ohtani makes sense as the ROY if you compare his 162 game average with Andujar's 162 game average. Based on the 162 game averages, Ohtani is just marginally better, as a DH.

However, Ohtani played in only 104 games.

I will agree that Ohtani is a better (seldom used, often injured) pitcher than Andujar.


IMO, this is the second time in 3 years an Angels player has robbed a more deserving player of a post season award.
Who was the first? Trout/ Simmons?

- oh, and, technically it's a regular season award not a post-season award...no Angel would have or could have won one of those.
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Old 11-12-2018, 08:04 PM
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Ohtani 3.9 WAR Andujar 2.2 WAR. Ohtani provided a lot more value, even though he played fewer games. Lest you think this is a new concept, Willie Mccovey won ROY even though he only played 52 games.
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Old 11-12-2018, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
Who was the first? Trout/ Simmons?

- oh, and, technically it's a regular season award not a post-season award...no Angel would have or could have won one of those.
The MVP award for the 2016 "regular season", awarded following (post) the 2016 regular season, was to Trout instead of Betts....as a Yankee fan, it is exceedingly tough to admit that Betts was far more deserving than Trout that season.

For the Angels, yet another undeserving "regular" season award .

As you mention, if ROY was indeed a "post-season"/playoff award, Ohtani would not have been eligible since the Angels finished the season below .500 (80-82), just as they were also below .500 in 2016 when Trout was awarded the MVP.
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Old 11-12-2018, 08:31 PM
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Ohtani 3.9 WAR Andujar 2.2 WAR. Ohtani provided a lot more value, even though he played fewer games. Lest you think this is a new concept, Willie Mccovey won ROY even though he only played 52 games.
I get McCovey....he was an unanimous choice for a reason, he was apparently the only rookie who had a great season that year, or in other words his partial season was better than any other rookies season. There were no votes for any other players for that season's ROY.

There were two Yankees, IMO more deserving of the award than Ohtani w/o considering WAR. But if WAR has to be considered:

Ohtani's WAR was for both his pitching and his batting....offensively his WAR 2.7 and defensively was -.7. Offensively Ohtani was behind both Andujar (4.6) and Torres (2.9). Defensively Torres was .5 and followed by Andujar at -2.2.

If Ohtani some how deserves the award for his pitching......

Last edited by savedfrommyspokes; 11-12-2018 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 11-13-2018, 05:07 AM
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Miguel Andujar had better stats and should have won it, but they say his poor fielding was the difference.
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  #7  
Old 11-13-2018, 08:32 AM
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I agree the 15 errors and sub. 950 Fpct at third did not compliment his offensive achievements. Ohtani did not have many opportunities to make any fielding errors this season, as he had a total of 7 chances from the mound and none from the bench as he became just the second DH to win the ROY award.
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Old 11-13-2018, 08:39 AM
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Another thing to consider are that today's game is tilted towards power hitting and hitting in a lineup as loaded as the Yankees has advantages over lineups that are less so...like the Angels.



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  #9  
Old 11-13-2018, 09:13 AM
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I get McCovey....he was an unanimous choice for a reason, he was apparently the only rookie who had a great season that year, or in other words his partial season was better than any other rookies season. There were no votes for any other players for that season's ROY.

There were two Yankees, IMO more deserving of the award than Ohtani w/o considering WAR. But if WAR has to be considered:

Ohtani's WAR was for both his pitching and his batting....offensively his WAR 2.7 and defensively was -.7. Offensively Ohtani was behind both Andujar (4.6) and Torres (2.9). Defensively Torres was .5 and followed by Andujar at -2.2.

If Ohtani some how deserves the award for his pitching......
Ohtani OPS+ 152 Andujar OPS+ 126. Ohtani was a much better hitter than Andujar. He just didn't get the at bats because the Angels saw the value of him pitching. Ohtani deserves the award because of his pitching and his superior hitting.

It is a catch 22. If Ohtani wasn't such a good pitcher, he would have gotten more at bats and put up better counting stats. When Ohtani became a regular DH, he hit .328/.423/.672/1.083 in August. In September. 310/.371/.632/1.003. Andujar had 0 months of 1+ OPS and only 1 month of even .9 OPS. The voters saw that Ohtani was the superior hitter who also brought value as a pitcher with a 126 ERA+ and 11 K/9. He had a historic season and that is why he got 25 of 30 votes.
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Old 11-13-2018, 09:22 AM
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Another thing to consider are that today's game is tilted towards power hitting and hitting in a lineup as loaded as the Yankees has advantages over lineups that are less so...like the Angels.



-
Through late July(or about half his season), Ohtani typically batted 6th or higher in the order and was hitting in the .250s. with 9 HRs. Over the last 2 months of the season he he moved up in the batting ahead sometimes ahead of Trout but in front of Upton and his batting took off as he was seeing much better pitching batting 3rd or 4th in the order than 6th.

In the majority of Yankeee games this season, Andujar batted most typically 6-8th in the line up with no one hitting behind him. Late in the season (Sept) with Judge out, he batted 4th with Didi behind him.....Didi was the best hitter to hit behind him all season.

So if these two player's line-ups were considered when voting, Ohtani benefitted much more from his line-up than did Andujar.


At least the writers got the NL ROY correct.
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  #11  
Old 11-13-2018, 09:37 AM
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Ohtani OPS+ 152 Andujar OPS+ 126. Ohtani was a much better hitter than Andujar. He just didn't get the at bats because the Angels saw the value of him pitching. Ohtani deserves the award because of his pitching and his superior hitting.

It is a catch 22. If Ohtani wasn't such a good pitcher, he would have gotten more at bats and put up better counting stats. When Ohtani became a regular DH, he hit .328/.423/.672/1.083 in August. In September. 310/.371/.632/1.003. Andujar had 0 months of 1+ OPS and only 1 month of even .9 OPS. The voters saw that Ohtani was the superior hitter who also brought value as a pitcher with a 126 ERA+ and 11 K/9. He had a historic season and that is why he got 25 of 30 votes.
No doubt once Ohtani was moved up in the line up for the last two months of the season he hit well as he was seeing better pitches to hit and was not being pitched around.

I guess my whole point behind this thread was that there appears to be some sort of bias by the voters...if Ohtani wins ROY in '18 with the abbreviated (but solid) stats he put up how in the world does Sanchez not win in '16 (over an 11-7 pitcher) with stats quite similar to Ohtani ?
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Old 11-13-2018, 11:45 AM
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No doubt once Ohtani was moved up in the line up for the last two months of the season he hit well as he was seeing better pitches to hit and was not being pitched around.

I guess my whole point behind this thread was that there appears to be some sort of bias by the voters...if Ohtani wins ROY in '18 with the abbreviated (but solid) stats he put up how in the world does Sanchez not win in '16 (over an 11-7 pitcher) with stats quite similar to Ohtani ?
Ohtani's best month was August when Trout was on the DL most of the month. They were in the line up together for only the last 7 games of the month. Justin Upton, a .257 hitter with an OPS+ 122 wasn't providing protection for him either as Ohtani hit behind him the whole month of August. Hit hit ahead of Trout once all season. When he started hitting ahead of Upton some in September, his stats were slightly worse.

These are the OPS+ of the other hitters in the Angels every day line up, 71, 92, 95, 109, 62, 80. Their main reserves were all below 100. The Angels line up was pretty much garbage outside of Trout and Upton. Ohtani wasn't getting better pitches because of where he hit. Gregorious had an OPS+ of 120. 5 of the other 8 Yankees regulars had an OPS+ of 118 or above and 3 reserves were above 100. Andujar had much more protection in the Yankees line up no matter where he he than Ohtani did, even the few game that Upton hit behind him. Nice theory, but it doesn't hold water.

A better theory is that Ohtani batted in 34 of the Angels first 85 games and 70 of their last 77 games. So when he became an every day player, he got in a rhythm and produced better numbers. The bottom line is that he was a much better hitter over the whole season, even though he was a part time hitter for more than half of the season.

As far as 2016 AL ROY, Fulmer 5.2 WAR Sanchez 3.0 WAR. You may not like it, but we are in the era of advanced stats and voters are using them when voting for awards.

Last edited by rats60; 11-13-2018 at 11:54 AM.
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  #13  
Old 11-13-2018, 12:19 PM
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I knew Ohtani was going to win ROY as soon as the talking heads started talking about combining his pitching and hitting WAR.

I mean Andujar had more doubles then Ohtani had total extra base hits.

Lack of walks was the biggest thing that hurt Andujar on his overall hitting metrics compared to Ohtani.

Andujar got absolutely throttled by his defensive WAR unfortunately. Who knew how much things had changed. Back in 1978 Butch Hobson committed 43 errors and held an .899 FP and he got docked -1.00 on his defensive WAR.

Andujar commits 15 errors with a .948 FP and he gets docked -2.2.

Ohtani got docked 0 WAR points for playing absolutely no defense. I guess no defense is better then below average defense.

I question how valuable a two way star is, when you have to find somebody to replace him in the lineup 60 games a year due to injuries, limitations on his schedule, lack of an actual position, and an inevitable Tommy John surgery.

He's a hell of a talent, but having to constantly construct your team baseball strategy around his availability seems pretty silly to me.

Ultimately however, ROY really doesn't mean a whole lot. It's just a title. Hell, Walt Weiss won the award once upon a time, simply on his defense. Barring injuries, Gleyber Torres likely becomes the most valuable player of the 3 guys in the AL running this year.
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Old 11-13-2018, 01:07 PM
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Ohtani's best month was August when Trout was on the DL most of the month. They were in the line up together for only the last 7 games of the month. Justin Upton, a .257 hitter with an OPS+ 122 wasn't providing protection for him either as Ohtani hit behind him the whole month of August. Hit hit ahead of Trout once all season. When he started hitting ahead of Upton some in September, his stats were slightly worse.



These are the OPS+ of the other hitters in the Angels every day line up, 71, 92, 95, 109, 62, 80. Their main reserves were all below 100. The Angels line up was pretty much garbage outside of Trout and Upton. Ohtani wasn't getting better pitches because of where he hit. Gregorious had an OPS+ of 120. 5 of the other 8 Yankees regulars had an OPS+ of 118 or above and 3 reserves were above 100. Andujar had much more protection in the Yankees line up no matter where he he than Ohtani did, even the few game that Upton hit behind him. Nice theory, but it doesn't hold water.

A better theory is that Ohtani batted in 34 of the Angels first 85 games and 70 of their last 77 games. So when he became an every day player, he got in a rhythm and produced better numbers. The bottom line is that he was a much better hitter over the whole season, even though he was a part time hitter for more than half of the season.

As far as 2016 AL ROY, Fulmer 5.2 WAR Sanchez 3.0 WAR. You may not like it, but we are in the era of advanced stats and voters are using them when voting for awards.
So using WAR as a comparison for the 2016 results is okay but not in the 2018 comparison because it doesn't help with the explanation? Okay. Since Ohtani won as a DH (not a pitcher), the voters in 2018 didn't exactly use the advanced stats (his offensive WAR).

Everyone is entitled to their own theory about why Ohtani started hitting(again) in August.... Through June he was batting .289, then slumped in July before getting back on track in Aug-Sept. Why does any rookie start off hitting well then begin to slump? ....pitchers didn't start off with sufficient scouting for Ohtani (in spring training he didn't hit well). Once there is sufficient scouting, the pitchers/fielders make their adjustments. From there is up to the batter to adjust again and/or the manager to get make line-up adjustments. If the theory is he got hot in August because of regular playing time, that is not exactly true as he played sporadically starting at DH in only 14 games and appeared as PH in 10.


I'll stick with he saw better pitches later in the season than what he saw in July (post pitcher adjustments) because of moving up in the line-up and then having a 30 HR guy batting behind him later .


Andujar had Didi for less than a month last season batting behind him. For a few weeks he had Torres behind him before Torres got hot and subsequently moved up in the order. Most of the season he had players like Tyler Austin, Torreyes, Romine, Bird, Etc batting behind him. Not exactly the league's strongest batters.

Either way, IMO there is a bias for southern CA teams with voting for these awards. If Ohtani stays in the ML as a batter, I believe he will have a great career.
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Old 11-13-2018, 02:13 PM
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The intangibles were massively in Ohtani's favor, even if you question the stats, and those weren't so clearly against him that you can really take issue with the vote IMO.
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Old 11-13-2018, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes View Post
Through late July(or about half his season), Ohtani typically batted 6th or higher in the order and was hitting in the .250s. with 9 HRs. Over the last 2 months of the season he he moved up in the batting ahead sometimes ahead of Trout but in front of Upton and his batting took off as he was seeing much better pitching batting 3rd or 4th in the order than 6th.

In the majority of Yankeee games this season, Andujar batted most typically 6-8th in the line up with no one hitting behind him. Late in the season (Sept) with Judge out, he batted 4th with Didi behind him.....Didi was the best hitter to hit behind him all season.

So if these two player's line-ups were considered when voting, Ohtani benefitted much more from his line-up than did Andujar.


At least the writers got the NL ROY correct.

...and at least you got that right! LOL (imo)
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Old 11-13-2018, 03:34 PM
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...and at least you got that right! LOL (imo)
Soto and Acuna were very close I thought.
Look just how close.
https://herosports.com/mlb/player-co...s-ronald-acuna
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Old 11-13-2018, 04:10 PM
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IMO, both Acuna and Ohtani were the pre-season favorites to win this award. They both clearly benefited from the plethora of hype they began receiving back in spring training.


Soto (once finally called up a month or so after Acuna) had significant hype surrounding him as did Gleyber Torres. In July, my bet on AL ROY would have been Torres after coming off the DL and being selected for the AS game following his torrid start.

Andujar, who received far less hype than the other four, at the start of the season was 3rd on the NYY depth chart at 3rd base. So with little to no hype most of the season he came out of no where and put up a great season.

I get that Andujar received no where near the same hype as the others and he didn't have an intriguing story so lacking in both intangibles clearly worked against him in regards to winning the ROY, but he had a great rookie season ....
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Old 11-13-2018, 04:38 PM
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Andujar deserved the award for the same reason people were saying Beltre was a HOFer before he got to 3,000: there aren't a whole lot of third basemen who can hit. If being a power hitting third basemen can get you into the HOF, it should win you the ROY too. Power hitting DH's are a dime a dozen. Who cares if they pitched 50 innings.

Andujar's oWAR was 4.6. Ohtani's was only 2.7. Andujar was a superior hitter. His fielding would be the only knock but then again Ohtani wasn't playing the field either.

Last edited by packs; 11-13-2018 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 11-13-2018, 04:41 PM
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So using WAR as a comparison for the 2016 results is okay but not in the 2018 comparison because it doesn't help with the explanation? Okay. Since Ohtani won as a DH (not a pitcher), the voters in 2018 didn't exactly use the advanced stats (his offensive WAR).
I am not sure how you came up with this. The voters did use WAR in 2018. Ohtani 3.9 WAR Andujar 2.2 WAR. Lol at Yankees fans complaining about bias.
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Old 11-13-2018, 04:45 PM
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Andujar's WAR is knocked for his defense, which Ohtani didn't play either. His oWAR was almost 2 points higher than Ohtani's.

Last edited by packs; 11-13-2018 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 11-13-2018, 05:36 PM
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Andujar deserved the award for the same reason people were saying Beltre was a HOFer before he got to 3,000: there aren't a whole lot of third basemen who can hit. If being a power hitting third basemen can get you into the HOF, it should win you the ROY too. Power hitting DH's are a dime a dozen. Who cares if they pitched 50 innings.

Andujar's oWAR was 4.6. Ohtani's was only 2.7. Andujar was a superior hitter. His fielding would be the only knock but then again Ohtani wasn't playing the field either.
Last I checked Andujar wasn't pitching...
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Old 11-13-2018, 06:53 PM
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I'm surprised this is even a debate. Ohtani got 25 out of 30 first place votes, and he probably should have all 30. What he accomplished with the opportunities he had was remarkable. I couldn't care less about war or owar but you could argue his case based on his offensive stats alone. Once you include the pitching it's not even close.
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Old 11-13-2018, 07:04 PM
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I am not sure how you came up with this. The voters did use WAR in 2018. Ohtani 3.9 WAR Andujar 2.2 WAR. Lol at Yankees fans complaining about bias.
Recapping what has already been discussed: As a DH Ohtani has an OFFENSIVE WAR is 2.7. Andujar has an OFFENSIVE WAR of 4.6.

Unless I am mistaken, a 4.6 OFFENSIVE WAR is greater than a 2.7 Offensive WAR.

If you insist upon using WAR to compare these two players, use the one measurement that is comparable for both players, offensive WAR.

They are both good players...one had a great season with minimal hype, the other had great hype and a pretty decent season. If hype is enough to win a subjective award, then great.

Again, the bias is obvious....a Yankee in 2016 had a similar partial season to Ohtani in 2018 yet loses the award to an 11-7 pitcher.

In another day or two nobody will even care.
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Old 11-14-2018, 08:49 AM
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How do you explain just ignoring the pitching? You act like it doesn't matter.
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes View Post
Recapping what has already been discussed: As a DH Ohtani has an OFFENSIVE WAR is 2.7. Andujar has an OFFENSIVE WAR of 4.6.

Unless I am mistaken, a 4.6 OFFENSIVE WAR is greater than a 2.7 Offensive WAR.

If you insist upon using WAR to compare these two players, use the one measurement that is comparable for both players, offensive WAR.

They are both good players...one had a great season with minimal hype, the other had great hype and a pretty decent season. If hype is enough to win a subjective award, then great.

Again, the bias is obvious....a Yankee in 2016 had a similar partial season to Ohtani in 2018 yet loses the award to an 11-7 pitcher.

In another day or two nobody will even care.
Offensive WAR is irrelevant, oWAR is a counting stat. Ohtani's counting stats are all going to be lower because he had fewer plate appearances. Ohtani had fewer plate appearances because he is just as talented as a pitcher and brought tremendous value at a pitcher. Despite his fewer PA, he was a better hitter than Andujar with an OPS+ of 152 to Andujar's 126.

Andujar had a decent season, Ohtani had a historic season. Ohtani had an ERA+ 126 and K/9 11. Of pitchers with 10 starts, that has been done 39 times in baseball history and only the 4th time a rookie has done that. His OPS+ of 152 is 21st all time for rookies with at least 350 PA. Of the 13 players that did it in the ROY award era, 9 won ROY and the other 4 2nd, including Rico Carty who finished 2nd to Dick Allen with OPS+ of 162 to 161.

There is no bias other than that of Yankee fans who think that Sanchez and Andujar deserved ROY. Ohtani isn't remotely comparable to Sanchez. Ohtani played a full season, just neither as a full time pitcher or full time hitter, but as a combination of both and led AL rookies in WAR. Sanchez was a distant 2nd to Michael Fulmer in WAR. In both cases the player who had the higher WAR won ROY as they deserved. Claiming inferior players should have won just shows bias.
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:32 AM
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How do you explain just ignoring the pitching? You act like it doesn't matter.
First, on MLB's website he is listed as a "DH", not a "DH/P" on the list on AL ROY winners.

Second, in just the 10 games he started, he was a pedestrian 4-2. He barely exceeded the 50 inning limit to no longer qualify for rookie status as a pitcher by throwing 51.2 innings . If he was a closer who threw around 50 innings but had 30+ saves and a low ERA, then great consider the pitching for this award, but he was a starter.

Is it really fair to judge a starting pitcher on a mere 10 starts?

Do I think the hype of him attempting to be a two-way player helped him with the votes for this award? ....... Absolutely


If he sticks with hitting, instead of pitching, he will be a great hitter.....if he has a full season with the bat in his hands next year, there is no doubt in my mind he will be a better hitter than any of the other sophomores.
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:41 AM
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There are two types of baseball fans.

Those who think that New York players are screwed out of national awards every year because writers from other cities want to get their revenge and stick it to New York.

And those who think that New York players are unduly favored every year because the media are always obsessed with New York players.

The latter group will be out in full force later today after DeGrom wins (rightfully so) the NL Cy Young.
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Old 11-14-2018, 10:17 AM
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There is no bias other than that of Yankee fans who think that Sanchez and Andujar deserved ROY. Ohtani isn't remotely comparable to Sanchez. Ohtani played a full season, just neither as a full time pitcher or full time hitter, but as a combination of both and led AL rookies in WAR. Sanchez was a distant 2nd to Michael Fulmer in WAR. In both cases the player who had the higher WAR won ROY as they deserved. Claiming inferior players should have won just shows bias.

We can debate, compare apples to oranges and disagree all day....nothing is going to change the fact that Andujar had a strong season but did not win this award (which no one will remember in a week anyway) due to the hype surrounding another player who had almost as good of a season.

In addition, is Ohtani a real rookie anyway? FIVE years in the NPB?

He maybe a MLB rookie by qualifications, but clearly no rookie at the top level.

With five years already under his belt, Ohtani should have had a much better season than Andujar did with no top level experience.


As far as comparing Sanchez and Ohtani and their partial seasons, they are quite similar, especially percentage wise. You can see how they compared to your previous example of McCovey winning in his shortened season.

..............g...ab...r..h..2b.HR.RBI.BA..OBP..SL G...OPS
Sanchez 53 229 34 60 12 20 42 .299 .376 .657 1.032
Ohtani. 104 326 59 93 21 22 61 .285 .361 .564 .925

McCovey 52 192 32 68 9 13 38 .354 .429 .656 1.085


If you feel Andujar and Sanchez's rookie performances are inferior when compared to Ohtani and Fulmer's MLB "rookie" results respectively , you must be........
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Old 11-14-2018, 10:30 AM
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There are two types of baseball fans.

Those who think that New York players are screwed out of national awards every year because writers from other cities want to get their revenge and stick it to New York.

And those who think that New York players are unduly favored every year because the media are always obsessed with New York players.

The latter group will be out in full force later today after DeGrom wins (rightfully so) the NL Cy Young.
If DeGrom wins, that might just debunk the theory that the player with the highest WAR wins/deserves the award. Just like in 2015 when Donaldson won the MVP award with a WAR less than Trout.
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Old 11-14-2018, 01:33 PM
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Offensive WAR is irrelevant, oWAR is a counting stat. Ohtani's counting stats are all going to be lower because he had fewer plate appearances. Ohtani had fewer plate appearances because he is just as talented as a pitcher and brought tremendous value at a pitcher. Despite his fewer PA, he was a better hitter than Andujar with an OPS+ of 152 to Andujar's 126.

Andujar had a decent season, Ohtani had a historic season. Ohtani had an ERA+ 126 and K/9 11. Of pitchers with 10 starts, that has been done 39 times in baseball history and only the 4th time a rookie has done that. His OPS+ of 152 is 21st all time for rookies with at least 350 PA. Of the 13 players that did it in the ROY award era, 9 won ROY and the other 4 2nd, including Rico Carty who finished 2nd to Dick Allen with OPS+ of 162 to 161.

There is no bias other than that of Yankee fans who think that Sanchez and Andujar deserved ROY. Ohtani isn't remotely comparable to Sanchez. Ohtani played a full season, just neither as a full time pitcher or full time hitter, but as a combination of both and led AL rookies in WAR. Sanchez was a distant 2nd to Michael Fulmer in WAR. In both cases the player who had the higher WAR won ROY as they deserved. Claiming inferior players should have won just shows bias.

I don't agree with your assessment of Ohtani being a better hitter. Andujar had over 250 more official at bats and still finished with a significantly higher batting average. There is no way to project Ohtani slugging what he did over another 250 at bats, nor can you project batting average either. If Ohtani hit 30 homers and batted 260 I'd rather have the 297 hitter who got me 27 homers. Andujar had more doubles than Ohtani had homers and doubles combined. Then factor his home run power. He had the better season at the plate hands down.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:13 PM
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If DeGrom wins, that might just debunk the theory that the player with the highest WAR wins/deserves the award. Just like in 2015 when Donaldson won the MVP award with a WAR less than Trout.
Again, not really sure what you are talking about.
bWAR deGrom 10.0 Scherzer 9.5
fWAR deGrom 8.8 Scherzer 7.2.
deGrom led all MLB pitchers in WAR.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:30 PM
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Again, not really sure what you are talking about.
bWAR deGrom 10.0 Scherzer 9.5
fWAR deGrom 8.8 Scherzer 7.2.
deGrom led all MLB pitchers in WAR.
Unfortunately I have to quote you "AGAIN, not really sure what you are talking about":

http://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders

Nola 10.5
DeGrom 9.6
Scherzer 8.8 but is not even in the final 3


At some point maybe you will realize that WAR is not the be all, end all measurement of who is a better baseball player ....it is merely an approximation of value to a player's team and IMO, at times insanely inconsistent/irrelevant.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:37 PM
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We can debate, compare apples to oranges and disagree all day....nothing is going to change the fact that Andujar had a strong season but did not win this award (which no one will remember in a week anyway) due to the hype surrounding another player who had almost as good of a season.

In addition, is Ohtani a real rookie anyway? FIVE years in the NPB?

He maybe a MLB rookie by qualifications, but clearly no rookie at the top level.

With five years already under his belt, Ohtani should have had a much better season than Andujar did with no top level experience.


As far as comparing Sanchez and Ohtani and their partial seasons, they are quite similar, especially percentage wise. You can see how they compared to your previous example of McCovey winning in his shortened season.

..............g...ab...r..h..2b.HR.RBI.BA..OBP..SL G...OPS
Sanchez 53 229 34 60 12 20 42 .299 .376 .657 1.032
Ohtani. 104 326 59 93 21 22 61 .285 .361 .564 .925

McCovey 52 192 32 68 9 13 38 .354 .429 .656 1.085


If you feel Andujar and Sanchez's rookie performances are inferior when compared to Ohtani and Fulmer's MLB "rookie" results respectively , you must be........
Andujar had a strong season, but Ohtani had a historic one. He was a far better hitter with OPS+ 152 to 126 for Andujar as well as producing at a high level on the mound. There is no hype involved.

Ohtani played 5 years of minor league ball, playing 403 games with 1170 PA. Andujar played 596 minor league games with 2474 PA. Andujar has more professional experience, but they both absolutely are rookies.

If Ohtani was a rookie in 2016, he wouldn't have won the award like Sanchez didn't. ROY is a yearly award. Ohtani had weaker competition than Sanchez had, thus he is the 2018 AL ROY.

Here is a nice article from an actual voter. He lays out his reasoning and none of it involves "hype," but many of the stats that I laid out including a OPS+ 26 points higher, a OBP 33 points higher and a SLG 37 points higher. That is on top of his pitching. He also points out Andujar's historically bad fielding.

https://sports.yahoo.com/yankees-fan...065239328.html

I consult with executives, scouts, field staff, players – you know, people actually involved in the game – before I vote on these awards. Their vote was split. Slightly more favored Ohtani.

So, it seems that not only 25 of 30 writers favor Ohtani, but also those who are part of the game. The only group that favors Andujar are Yankee fans.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:40 PM
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If DeGrom wins, that might just debunk the theory that the player with the highest WAR wins/deserves the award. Just like in 2015 when Donaldson won the MVP award with a WAR less than Trout.
A pitcher can only throw the ball. Can't score more runs than the other team.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes View Post
Unfortunately I have to quote you "AGAIN, not really sure what you are talking about":

http://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders

Nola 10.5
DeGrom 9.6
Scherzer 8.8 but is not even in the final 3


At some point maybe you will realize that WAR is not the be all, end all measurement of who is a better baseball player ....it is merely an approximation of value to a player's team and IMO, at times insanely inconsistent/irrelevant.
You are the first person that I have ever seen that uses ESPN for WAR. The 2 sites who have been doing it for years have deGrom as the best pitcher in baseball.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:45 PM
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Unfortunately I have to quote you "AGAIN, not really sure what you are talking about":


Scherzer 8.8 but is not even in the final 3

Really? From your favorite site

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2...manager-awards

The Mets' Jacob deGrom, Washington's Max Scherzer and Philadelphia's Aaron Nola are the top three for the NL Cy Young Award, with deGrom favored to win for the first time despite a 10-9 record.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:52 PM
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Andujar had a strong season, but Ohtani had a historic one. He was a far better hitter with OPS+ 152 to 126 for Andujar as well as producing at a high level on the mound. There is no hype involved.

Ohtani played 5 years of minor league ball, playing 403 games with 1170 PA. Andujar played 596 minor league games with 2474 PA. Andujar has more professional experience, but they both absolutely are rookies.

If Ohtani was a rookie in 2016, he wouldn't have won the award like Sanchez didn't. ROY is a yearly award. Ohtani had weaker competition than Sanchez had, thus he is the 2018 AL ROY.

Here is a nice article from an actual voter. He lays out his reasoning and none of it involves "hype," but many of the stats that I laid out including a OPS+ 26 points higher, a OBP 33 points higher and a SLG 37 points higher. That is on top of his pitching. He also points out Andujar's historically bad fielding.

https://sports.yahoo.com/yankees-fan...065239328.html

I consult with executives, scouts, field staff, players – you know, people actually involved in the game – before I vote on these awards. Their vote was split. Slightly more favored Ohtani.

So, it seems that not only 25 of 30 writers favor Ohtani, but also those who are part of the game. The only group that favors Andujar are Yankee fans.

Please explain your reasoning for Ohtani having a better season at the plate. He had 250 less at bats than Andujar. Quoting OPS+, on base, or slugging seems crazy when there is that much of a disparity between at bats.

Last edited by packs; 11-14-2018 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 11-14-2018, 03:11 PM
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Ohtani did something that hasnt been done in over 100 years. That should put him over the yankees guy, in my opinion.
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Old 11-14-2018, 03:22 PM
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Andujar had a strong season, but Ohtani had a historic one. He was a far better hitter with OPS+ 152 to 126 for Andujar as well as producing at a high level on the mound. There is no hype involved.

Ohtani played 5 years of minor league ball, playing 403 games with 1170 PA. Andujar played 596 minor league games with 2474 PA. Andujar has more professional experience, but they both absolutely are rookies.

If Ohtani was a rookie in 2016, he wouldn't have won the award like Sanchez didn't. ROY is a yearly award. Ohtani had weaker competition than Sanchez had, thus he is the 2018 AL ROY.

Here is a nice article from an actual voter. He lays out his reasoning and none of it involves "hype," but many of the stats that I laid out including a OPS+ 26 points higher, a OBP 33 points higher and a SLG 37 points higher. That is on top of his pitching. He also points out Andujar's historically bad fielding.

https://sports.yahoo.com/yankees-fan...065239328.html

I consult with executives, scouts, field staff, players – you know, people actually involved in the game – before I vote on these awards. Their vote was split. Slightly more favored Ohtani.

So, it seems that not only 25 of 30 writers favor Ohtani, but also those who are part of the game. The only group that favors Andujar are Yankee fans.
You may want to actually read the article you linked, as it is contradicting to your position.

First, there is absolutely no mention of WAR being the reason for this voter voting the way he did. Second, the article flat out says that Ohtani did not lead in any (non-pct) offensive categories (as Andujar did), as (agreeably) leading in statistical categories is not a requirement to win the ROY. In so many words, the article does not deny Andujar had a better season offensively. So, read back between the lines and outside of Ohtani leading slightly in a few pct based offensive categories, he received this vote because "what he did was historic".... this is statement absolutely confirms Ohtani received this vote because of the HYPE surrounding him. In addition, Ohtani's performance is not really very historic when just two years ago the runnerup for ROY, in a less crowed field, was better percentage wise in all PCT base categories than Ohtani.

Straight from a voters mouth, Ohtani won this vote not on the merits of having the best season (he had a strong season for sure), but on the fact that what he did was "historic"...

Since this voter based his vote on Ohtani's percentages being stronger(and of course his "historic" performance), instead of using WAR or other traditional stats (HR, RBI 2bs, avg), I wonder who he voted for in 2016. The guy who had the best percentages OR another player? If he voted for anyone other than Sanchez, there is clear bias.


Oh, where exactly did Ohtani play his 5 years of "minor league ball"?
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Old 11-14-2018, 04:40 PM
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I’ve read this thread and have concluded the following.

There clearly should be an award for the Yankee ROY and a secondary ROY award for everyone else.
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Old 11-14-2018, 05:59 PM
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I’ve read this thread and have concluded the following.

There clearly should be an award for the Yankee ROY and a secondary ROY award for everyone else.
I was actually fine with Sanchez not winning the ROY in 2016 based on the premise that he played an abbreviated season, even though there was a long ago precedent set with McCovey winning and playing even less.

With the 2016 precedent of passing on a player who played much less than a full season for this award but put forth strong results, it seems ironic that just two years later another player who played a partial season would win the award based on only minimally greater percentages than a player whose tangible results were greater because of playing a more complete season. This irony is my reason for this thread.
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Old 11-15-2018, 09:44 PM
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I think we can all agree on one thing.
Daniel Palka is the true Rookie of the Year.
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