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  #21  
Old 11-13-2018, 05:45 PM
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Andujar's WAR is knocked for his defense, which Ohtani didn't play either. His oWAR was almost 2 points higher than Ohtani's.

Last edited by packs; 11-13-2018 at 05:45 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-13-2018, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by packs View Post
Andujar deserved the award for the same reason people were saying Beltre was a HOFer before he got to 3,000: there aren't a whole lot of third basemen who can hit. If being a power hitting third basemen can get you into the HOF, it should win you the ROY too. Power hitting DH's are a dime a dozen. Who cares if they pitched 50 innings.

Andujar's oWAR was 4.6. Ohtani's was only 2.7. Andujar was a superior hitter. His fielding would be the only knock but then again Ohtani wasn't playing the field either.
Last I checked Andujar wasn't pitching...
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  #23  
Old 11-13-2018, 07:53 PM
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I'm surprised this is even a debate. Ohtani got 25 out of 30 first place votes, and he probably should have all 30. What he accomplished with the opportunities he had was remarkable. I couldn't care less about war or owar but you could argue his case based on his offensive stats alone. Once you include the pitching it's not even close.
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  #24  
Old 11-13-2018, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
I am not sure how you came up with this. The voters did use WAR in 2018. Ohtani 3.9 WAR Andujar 2.2 WAR. Lol at Yankees fans complaining about bias.
Recapping what has already been discussed: As a DH Ohtani has an OFFENSIVE WAR is 2.7. Andujar has an OFFENSIVE WAR of 4.6.

Unless I am mistaken, a 4.6 OFFENSIVE WAR is greater than a 2.7 Offensive WAR.

If you insist upon using WAR to compare these two players, use the one measurement that is comparable for both players, offensive WAR.

They are both good players...one had a great season with minimal hype, the other had great hype and a pretty decent season. If hype is enough to win a subjective award, then great.

Again, the bias is obvious....a Yankee in 2016 had a similar partial season to Ohtani in 2018 yet loses the award to an 11-7 pitcher.

In another day or two nobody will even care.
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  #25  
Old 11-14-2018, 09:49 AM
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How do you explain just ignoring the pitching? You act like it doesn't matter.
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  #26  
Old 11-14-2018, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes View Post
Recapping what has already been discussed: As a DH Ohtani has an OFFENSIVE WAR is 2.7. Andujar has an OFFENSIVE WAR of 4.6.

Unless I am mistaken, a 4.6 OFFENSIVE WAR is greater than a 2.7 Offensive WAR.

If you insist upon using WAR to compare these two players, use the one measurement that is comparable for both players, offensive WAR.

They are both good players...one had a great season with minimal hype, the other had great hype and a pretty decent season. If hype is enough to win a subjective award, then great.

Again, the bias is obvious....a Yankee in 2016 had a similar partial season to Ohtani in 2018 yet loses the award to an 11-7 pitcher.

In another day or two nobody will even care.
Offensive WAR is irrelevant, oWAR is a counting stat. Ohtani's counting stats are all going to be lower because he had fewer plate appearances. Ohtani had fewer plate appearances because he is just as talented as a pitcher and brought tremendous value at a pitcher. Despite his fewer PA, he was a better hitter than Andujar with an OPS+ of 152 to Andujar's 126.

Andujar had a decent season, Ohtani had a historic season. Ohtani had an ERA+ 126 and K/9 11. Of pitchers with 10 starts, that has been done 39 times in baseball history and only the 4th time a rookie has done that. His OPS+ of 152 is 21st all time for rookies with at least 350 PA. Of the 13 players that did it in the ROY award era, 9 won ROY and the other 4 2nd, including Rico Carty who finished 2nd to Dick Allen with OPS+ of 162 to 161.

There is no bias other than that of Yankee fans who think that Sanchez and Andujar deserved ROY. Ohtani isn't remotely comparable to Sanchez. Ohtani played a full season, just neither as a full time pitcher or full time hitter, but as a combination of both and led AL rookies in WAR. Sanchez was a distant 2nd to Michael Fulmer in WAR. In both cases the player who had the higher WAR won ROY as they deserved. Claiming inferior players should have won just shows bias.
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  #27  
Old 11-14-2018, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
How do you explain just ignoring the pitching? You act like it doesn't matter.
First, on MLB's website he is listed as a "DH", not a "DH/P" on the list on AL ROY winners.

Second, in just the 10 games he started, he was a pedestrian 4-2. He barely exceeded the 50 inning limit to no longer qualify for rookie status as a pitcher by throwing 51.2 innings . If he was a closer who threw around 50 innings but had 30+ saves and a low ERA, then great consider the pitching for this award, but he was a starter.

Is it really fair to judge a starting pitcher on a mere 10 starts?

Do I think the hype of him attempting to be a two-way player helped him with the votes for this award? ....... Absolutely


If he sticks with hitting, instead of pitching, he will be a great hitter.....if he has a full season with the bat in his hands next year, there is no doubt in my mind he will be a better hitter than any of the other sophomores.
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  #28  
Old 11-14-2018, 10:41 AM
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There are two types of baseball fans.

Those who think that New York players are screwed out of national awards every year because writers from other cities want to get their revenge and stick it to New York.

And those who think that New York players are unduly favored every year because the media are always obsessed with New York players.

The latter group will be out in full force later today after DeGrom wins (rightfully so) the NL Cy Young.
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  #29  
Old 11-14-2018, 11:17 AM
savedfrommyspokes savedfrommyspokes is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post

There is no bias other than that of Yankee fans who think that Sanchez and Andujar deserved ROY. Ohtani isn't remotely comparable to Sanchez. Ohtani played a full season, just neither as a full time pitcher or full time hitter, but as a combination of both and led AL rookies in WAR. Sanchez was a distant 2nd to Michael Fulmer in WAR. In both cases the player who had the higher WAR won ROY as they deserved. Claiming inferior players should have won just shows bias.

We can debate, compare apples to oranges and disagree all day....nothing is going to change the fact that Andujar had a strong season but did not win this award (which no one will remember in a week anyway) due to the hype surrounding another player who had almost as good of a season.

In addition, is Ohtani a real rookie anyway? FIVE years in the NPB?

He maybe a MLB rookie by qualifications, but clearly no rookie at the top level.

With five years already under his belt, Ohtani should have had a much better season than Andujar did with no top level experience.


As far as comparing Sanchez and Ohtani and their partial seasons, they are quite similar, especially percentage wise. You can see how they compared to your previous example of McCovey winning in his shortened season.

..............g...ab...r..h..2b.HR.RBI.BA..OBP..SL G...OPS
Sanchez 53 229 34 60 12 20 42 .299 .376 .657 1.032
Ohtani. 104 326 59 93 21 22 61 .285 .361 .564 .925

McCovey 52 192 32 68 9 13 38 .354 .429 .656 1.085


If you feel Andujar and Sanchez's rookie performances are inferior when compared to Ohtani and Fulmer's MLB "rookie" results respectively , you must be........
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  #30  
Old 11-14-2018, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
There are two types of baseball fans.

Those who think that New York players are screwed out of national awards every year because writers from other cities want to get their revenge and stick it to New York.

And those who think that New York players are unduly favored every year because the media are always obsessed with New York players.

The latter group will be out in full force later today after DeGrom wins (rightfully so) the NL Cy Young.
If DeGrom wins, that might just debunk the theory that the player with the highest WAR wins/deserves the award. Just like in 2015 when Donaldson won the MVP award with a WAR less than Trout.
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