How could this get authenticated?

[yanksfan09]

This is not intended as a PSA bashing thread. But after seeing this, I don't know what to think....

http://cgi.ebay.com/PSA-DNA-Signed-S...item1c0def49ef.

http://cgi.ebay.com/PSA-DNA-Signed-S...item1c0def48ff

http://cgi.ebay.com/NOLAN-RYAN-AUTOG...item5195b16faa


http://cgi.ebay.com/PSA-DNA-Signed-S...item5ad4dcc091



this seller has another one like it as well....

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

This is not intended as a PSA bashing thread. But after seeing this, I don't know what to think....

http://cgi.ebay.com/PSA-DNA-Signed-S...item1c0def49ef.

this seller has another one like it as well....

I am a Ryan specialist and I can tell you with absolute certainty that this is a fake, and not even a good one at that...

Someone at PSA dropped the ball....

[yanksfan09]

Yeah, I posted a few other ones too and a Mattingly card. I didn't look through all of the listings there certainly could be more also...

[Bilko G]

Could some of them just be really rushed signatures? You know like Nolan was talking on his cell phone while exiting the hotel and was surrounded by 50 autograph hounds and he was just trying to sign as many as he could before he boarded the team bus? Or perhaps he was signing through a chain link fence, while some 14 year old kid held the card for him nervously?

Just a thought. I had PSA fail 3 Wayne Gretzky autos for me a few years back, autos that i got in person back in the early 90s. I got the autos in similar fashion to the incident i described above. Gretzky was playing for the Los Angeles Kings back in the early 90s and the Kings were one of the most popular teams to "Hound" back then up here in Calgary, Canada (I was a big autograph hound in my teenage years). Literally, almost 100 auto seekers would stand out in front of the team Hotel and try to get the players to sign as they exited the hotel and had to walk about 150 feet to the front street were the team bus was parked. Well as soon as Gretzky would walk out, there would literally be a "mosh pit" around him and he would just start signing autographs like crazy as he continued walking to the team bus. None of them really looked liked the autos that he would sign in paid, sit down signings, but nevertheless the autographs were still authentic Gretzky signatures.

Heres one of the Gretzky autos that i had signed right in front of me, that PSA failed..



So im not saying the Nolan Ryan's above are real or fake because honestly i do not know, im just saying that with autograph authentication, there are just so many variable factors that can effect the signature while its being signed, that you just gotta know PSA (or any company really) has to make many mistakes against real autos and for forgery's as well.

[HRBAKER]

I have several in-person Mattingly signatures signed at his restaurant in Evansville in the late 80's/early 90's that are identical to the card shown. I have no opinion on the Ryans but the Donnie is real IMO.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

Could some of them just be really rushed signatures? You know like Nolan was talking on his cell phone while exiting the hotel and was surrounded by 50 autograph hounds and he was just trying to sign as many as he could before he boarded the team bus? Or perhaps he was signing through a chain link fence, while some 14 year old kid held the card for him nervously?

Just a thought. I had PSA fail 3 Wayne Gretzky autos for me a few years back, autos that i got in person back in the early 90s. I got the autos in similar fashion to the incident i described above. Gretzky was playing for the Los Angeles Kings back in the early 90s and the Kings were one of the most popular teams to "Hound" back then up here in Calgary, Canada (I was a big autograph hound in my teenage years). Literally, almost 100 auto seekers would stand out in front of the team Hotel and try to get the players to sign as they exited the hotel and had to walk about 150 feet to the front street were the team bus was parked. Well as soon as Gretzky would walk out, there would literally be a "mosh pit" around him and he would just start signing autographs like crazy as he continued walking to the team bus. None of them really looked liked the autos that he would sign in paid, sit down signings, but nevertheless the autographs were still authentic Gretzky signatures.

Heres one of the Gretzky autos that i had signed right in front of me, that PSA failed..



So im not saying the Nolan Ryan's above are real or fake because honestly i do not know, im just saying that with autograph authentication, there are just so many variable factors that can effect the signature while its being signed, that you just gotta know PSA (or any company really) has to make many mistakes against real autos and for forgery's as well.

Hi Bilko,
The "fast or rushed signature" vs. a more deliberate one is a decent theory, because Ryan definately signed both ways. As you are aware, most players sign using both versions depending on time and circumstances. But, at the risk of sounding like a stalker, I have gotten his sig over 200 times (over 37 years) under virtually all circumstances and have never seen one that looks like this. The "give" to me is the "R" in Ryan, which is not consistent with the way he forms it. BTW, the two other Ryan sigs that you posted are somewhat suspect, but could be real IMHO. If I was a collector I would stay away from all of them. Ryan's signatures are certainly not scarce. There are many great examples out there to choose from, so why settle for less?

[Exhibitman]

I can definitely vouch that some autographs vary so widely depending on circumstance that you could never convince a third party that the same guy signed both. The 1st card below is a Lennox Lewis I got myself at a promotional event for his fight with Klitschko. He was walking towards the stage and still had his handwraps on. Below is a signature on a 2010 Ringside card.

[yanksfan09]

They are definatley times when the rushed signature idea will come into play...However, unless someone from PSA watched Ryan sign that (those) cards how could they "authenticate" it when it's so vastly different from basically all other examples?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

They are definatley times when the rushed signature idea will come into play...However, unless someone from PSA watched Ryan sign that (those) cards how could they "authenticate" it when it's so vastly different from basically all other examples?

I agree! Why wouln't they pass on authenticating these?

[khkco4bls]

let me tell you. im a memorabilia collector, but as a autograph collector the way they sign these days real or not who would want them. they all sign like crap any way.

[tinkereversandme]

I was once, as many, a heavy Nolan Ryan collector and I am very familiar with his signature (not so much with Mattingly) and I don't like these signatures at all. But in saying this, I think it goes with the territory that a big seller who is trusted and uses an authenticating firm may get the benefit of the doubt. Look at some of the Ali signatures out there. If I sent them in, it would fail but if Mr. PSA sent it in, they would pass. Ditto for Lennox Lewis, who I got, and received a different scribble when I met him. It's like these guys sign to get rid of the mob sometimes.

Larry

[RobertGT]

Funny how a lot of sigs like this suspiciously turn up on worthless 80s junk cards, usually with the same sharpie used on all/most the cards. Local auctioneer out here in Pennsylvania has 10-20 card lots that look just like these every month, with every third card signed by the same sharpie with similar pressure, similar flow, etc.

[Exhibitman]

Ali has undergone rather dramatic changes in his signature over time due to his illness; even when he does private signings in the best of conditions now his sig looks nothing like it used to.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Ali has undergone rather dramatic changes in his signature over time due to his illness; even when he does private signings in the best of conditions now his sig looks nothing like it used to.

and forgers take advantage of that fact.

What's amazing is Ali has probably signed more legitimate autographs then Bob Feller, and the forgeries still probably outnumber the real sigs, about 20-1.

[danc]

Bergin and Tinkers hit it on the head, even though I would think that Feller has signed more as he's across the street right now signing for loose change, but people still feel the need to forge the champ. The day he passes, there could be 100,000 signatures on eBay and probably 80,000 of those will be fake. It will be an immense prison break.

DanC