Selling Cards that you do not own

[ezez420]

I put this in the wrong thread but it came into play when I realized that a person I was conversing with was a person that sells cards that he does not own. I currently own and have in possession a T206 Atz SGC 92. I showed it to a member or two. However, what was disturbing was that they asked if I got from CMIZ5290. No I did not get it from him nor did he ever OWN the card or have in his possession. I got it from a gentleman who had in his possession for quite some time. But yet he was advertising it and asking others if interested. Ed DeS.erio

Myself nor others appreciate when you try to sell a card that in fact you don't even own. That is unethical and dishonest. This is the card so if CMIZ5290 offered it to you he never even owned it.

[Leon]

Thanks for posting in the correct place Ed. I appreciate it and your understanding in the matter.

***If you want to post in this thread your full name needs to be in your post or sig line etc.... thanks

[7nohitter]

Now this is interesting...was CMIZ talking to you about buying the card from you at any point? And, I'm guessing based on SGC info., he was 'offering' the same exact card?

Odd. There has to be some explanation, I know he's been on this board for a long time.

[bnorth]

I understand the OP's disgust in someone trying to sell his card. For me it is only bad if the card is not for sale by the OP.

I think it is pretty slimy myself but trying to profit on someone else's card(s) has become very common.

Example: Person A is selling a T206 Cobb for $200. Person B thinks wow I can get $300 for that card. Instead of taking the risk of buying the card they shop it around to others saying it is available at $300. Person B finds a buyer(person C) at $300 so they buy the card from Person A and then ship it to person C for a $100 -shipping profit. It takes all the risk out of selling cards because you never own them or have $ invested.

[ezez420]

Yes it is the same one and only one card. He was seeking to buy the card but backed out of a deal because he could not sell first. Advertising a sale prior to having in possession. I am saying this is an unethical and dishonest approach not much more. He shouldn't be advertising cards that are not his. I am sure others are doing this but he is the one that was caught doing it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ezez420

Yes it is the same one and only one card. He was seeking to buy the card but backed out of a deal because he could not sell first. Advertising a sale prior to having in possession. I am saying this is an unethical and dishonest approach not much more. He shouldn't be advertising cards that are not his. I am sure others are doing this but he is the one that was caught doing it.

I don't have as much of an issue with not having a card in possession IF THE card is on it's way to you from a trusted source. It's the not owning, or having consummated a solid deal, and trying to sell before that, that doesn't look good to me.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't have as much of an issue with not having a card in possession IF THE card is on it's way to you from a trusted source. It's the not owning, or having consummated a solid deal, and trying to sell before that, that doesn't look good to me.

Big difference between selling a card you own but don't have in your possession yet and selling a card you do not own at all. In one instance it is legal and in the other it isn't.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Hopefully he can come on board and help clear the air, he's been a member for a while here and I've always enjoyed his posts/interactions.

Brent Niederman


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[thetruthisoutthere]

Ebay seller Smcomstore (SportsMemorabilia.com) sells items they do not possess.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantl...item4d2576b425

I outed them a few years ago when they were listing and selling Derek Jeter forgeries certed by Global Authentics.

I once spoke to a rep from SM and he told me "We have a autograph contract with Derek Jeter."

Of course, it was a total lie.

They scour Ebay listings, copy the auction, mark up the price and then they list the item.

I do find it unethical if they (SportsMemorabilia.com) don't get permission from the owner and original Ebay seller of the item.

[bigtrain]

Interesting. What happens if I make a deal to sell a card
that I do not own and then am unable to acquire it? I have
entered an enforceable contract that I cannot perform.
Seems like a dangerous method of operation. Wondering if
anyone here has agreed to buy a card that could not be
delivered. What excuse did the seller use to back out?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Interesting. What happens if I make a deal to sell a card
that I do not own and then am unable to acquire it? I have
entered an enforceable contract that I cannot perform.
Seems like a dangerous method of operation. Wondering if
anyone here has agreed to buy a card that could not be
delivered. What excuse did the seller use to back out?

The seller told me someone contacted him after the auction ended, and offered him 10x more than my ebay "accepted" price

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Ebay seller Smcomstore (SportsMemorabilia.com) sells items they do not possess.



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantl...item4d2576b425



I outed them a few years ago when they were listing and selling Derek Jeter forgeries certed by Global Authentics.



I once spoke to a rep from SM and he told me "We have a autograph contract with Derek Jeter."



Of course, it was a total lie.



They scour Ebay listings, copy the auction, mark up the price and then they list the item.



I do find it unethical if they (SportsMemorabilia.com) don't get permission from the owner and original Ebay seller of the item.

I remember not too long ago I saw an item that Mill Creek Sports Cards owned then was searching for comparable sales to that card because I was interested and saw it on another site.

I messaged Mill Creek to let them be aware, and they said this is a company they work with that has some of their items on consignment with a little markup.

Maybe this is similar?...


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[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=milch

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=milch

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I do find it unethical if they (SportsMemorabilia.com) don't get permission from the owner and original Ebay seller of the item.

I just checked my messages to Mill Creek and it's with that company (SportsMemorabili.com), but they have permission from Mill Creek to list, hopefully this is a similar case.


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[thetruthisoutthere]

Here's an example of what they do.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1992-Little-.../161627262288?

http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/spo...-graded-5.html

[gregr2]

Let me get this straight. They price the card on their site for 2X the Ebay price. Then if someone buys it from them, they quickly purchase the card from Ebay and sell it to the buyer?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by gregr2

Let me get this straight. They price the card on their site for 2X the Ebay price. Then if someone buys it from them, they quickly purchase the card from Ebay and sell it to the buyer?

From my understanding is they take a cut of that 2x sale price. That's just my guess


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[ruth-gehrig]

Interesting situation that I'm sure would have a higher chance of backfiring than a typical transaction...as it appears has happened here.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by gregr2

Let me get this straight. They price the card on their site for 2X the Ebay price. Then if someone buys it from them, they quickly purchase the card from Ebay and sell it to the buyer?

I guess they either have the item dropshipped, or they have the item shipped to them (SM) and then they ship it.

Have to be a moron to buy from them. If anyone is looking for a particular item, there's a good chance they will notice a "duplicate" listing from two different sellers.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by ezez420

I put this in the wrong thread but it came into play when I realized that a person I was conversing with was a person that sells cards that he does not own. I currently own and have in possession a T206 Atz SGC 92. I showed it to a member or two. However, what was disturbing was that they asked if I got from CMIZ5290. No I did not get it from him nor did he ever OWN the card or have in his possession. I got it from a gentleman who had in his possession for quite some time. But yet he was advertising it and asking others if interested. Ed DeS.erio

Myself nor others appreciate when you try to sell a card that in fact you don't even own. That is unethical and dishonest. This is the card so if CMIZ5290 offered it to you he never even owned it.

Originally Posted by ezez420

Yes it is the same one and only one card. He was seeking to buy the card but backed out of a deal because he could not sell first. Advertising a sale prior to having in possession. I am saying this is an unethical and dishonest approach not much more. He shouldn't be advertising cards that are not his. I am sure others are doing this but he is the one that was caught doing it.

A similar situation came up a few years ago. IIRC, that board member was supsended from the B/S/T for a while.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=122382

I guess the difference in the two situations is that the Atz card wasn't listed on this forum, where the Uzit was. Other than that, its very similar.

[7nohitter]

I want an explanation from Mize

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

I want an explanation from Mize

He will probably just come and be rude and condescending so don't hold your breathe.

[iwantitiwinit]

If it's true and I hope it's not, it's unsavory. I don't mind someone making money by buying from one source and selling to another however, if it resulted in cancelled sales because the card could not be obtained from the original source that is inexcusable. Straight out non-performance of an agreed upon contract.

[vthobby]

Good point and good word. My word was "inexcusable."

If it is true then it is quite baffling and tantamount to deceptive business practices. Very uncool for someone to do that on this forum/board.

What is also interesting, is the silence from said board member. After putting cards on the sell boards nonstop for weeks and most likely months and years......the silence is interesting to say the least.

Peace, Mike

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Wondering if
anyone here has agreed to buy a card that could not be
delivered. What excuse did the seller use to back out?

I once bought a pallet of uncut 1991 Georgia Tech Collegiate Collection sheets on eBay from krukcards; Price of the sheets including shipping worked out to about $1/sheet, with the shipping being 70% of that expense. After waiting about four days for it to be shipped, I contacted them, and they said it was no longer in their warehouse. How you lose a pallet with 500 uncut sheets on top of it, I have no idea. But they refunded my money and I gave them a neutral.

[Luke]

I had someone try to do this to me on this forum about a year ago. He saw that I was looking for a certain card for my e95 set. He then agreed to buy a copy of the card I was looking for from another member. He said he would send a check to the seller, and then immediately offered the card to me for $225 more than he agreed to pay the seller.

[ezez420]

Another guy tried doing this to me on this board a year ago also. Except the person he was trying to sell them to actually called me up and asked if it was a good buy. I let that member have it.


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[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I understand the OP's disgust in someone trying to sell his card. For me it is only bad if the card is not for sale by the OP.

I think it is pretty slimy myself but trying to profit on someone else's card(s) has become very common.

Example: Person A is selling a T206 Cobb for $200. Person B thinks wow I can get $300 for that card. Instead of taking the risk of buying the card they shop it around to others saying it is available at $300. Person B finds a buyer(person C) at $300 so they buy the card from Person A and then ship it to person C for a $100 -shipping profit. It takes all the risk out of selling cards because you never own them or have $ invested.

Easier said that done. We all see potential buyers back out of deals....you could end up buying the card you did not own yet then think you are going to sell the card to that new buyer ..but the new buyer back out..and now you stuck with the card....not sure why someone would risk it...if that new buyer (person C in the example )was willing to pay more cash than most..that new buyer probably will already find the item on own since paying more than the norm anyway....I just don't see this happening often since the new buyer will find the card on their own and /or theres too much risk of the new buyer backing out for the middle buyer to purchase..

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Easier said that done. We all see potential buyers back out of deals....you could end up buying the card you did not own yet then think you are going to sell the card to that new buyer ..but the new buyer back out..and now you stuck with the card....not sure why someone would risk it...if that new buyer (person C in the example )was willing to pay more cash than most..that new buyer probably will already find the item on own since paying more than the norm anyway....I just don't see this happening often since the new buyer will find the card on their own and /or theres too much risk of the new buyer backing out for the middle buyer to purchase..

That's one way of looking at it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

That's one way of looking at it.

right I not buying a 4000 card that I think is worth 3000 cause I have a 'locked in buyer' for 4500....he backs out..now im stuck with a card that I believe is worth 1000 under market

hard enough to find buyers straight up who don't back out....throwing another person into the deal good luck with doing that on a regular basis..



By the way, in the real world 'middle man' regularly find items from a seller and find a buyer in most things and don't own the item..so not so sure why its a big deal if it happens in the sportscard world......say selling apples......the life long search of all sellers is to find buyers straight without needing a 'middle man' the middle man doesn't own any of the items....in that Johnny Depp movie..johnny was the 'middle man' but then he lost out when the supplier found the customers direct..and no more 'middle man'..no more johnny depp...

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Easier said that done. We all see potential buyers back out of deals....you could end up buying the card you did not own yet then think you are going to sell the card to that new buyer ..but the new buyer back out..and now you stuck with the card....not sure why someone would risk it...if that new buyer (person C in the example )was willing to pay more cash than most..that new buyer probably will already find the item on own since paying more than the norm anyway....I just don't see this happening often since the new buyer will find the card on their own and /or theres too much risk of the new buyer backing out for the middle buyer to purchase..

I think the real focus of this thread is the ethics of the practice, the mechanics of it has its obvious risks. I have bought a few cards from Chris. In each case I have tried to purchase them as cheaply as possible. In some cases I have tried to turn around and sell some of them for more later and at no point have I ever tried to use pricing leverage by stating I intended to keep them for my own collection. As much as I enjoy bartering with Chris if it is found to be true that cards are being offered for sale that are not owned by him it will be disappointing and I will have to rethink purchasing from him.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

I think the real focus of this thread is the ethics of the practice, the mechanics of it has its obvious risks. I have bought a few cards from Chris. In each case I have tried to purchase them as cheaply as possible. In some cases I have tried to turn around and sell some of them for more later and at no point have I ever tried to use pricing leverage by stating I intended to keep them for my own collection. As much as I enjoy bartering with Chris if it is found to be true that cards are being offered for sale that are not owned by him it will be disappointing and I will have to rethink purchasing from him.

when I sell cards I don't care what the buyer intends to do with them....If I truly was basically giving a guy a good deal cause thought he really really loved the card and wanted to keep it...and then he turns and sells it in a week..yeah that sucks..but i look at it like giving a loan..i don't loan money unless i am prepared to not get paid back..no matter what the guy says 'ill get my tax refund in a month etc'

do we ever believe the buyers intentions? its just about price im willing to let it go

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

when I sell cards I don't care what the buyer intends to do with them....If I truly was basically giving a guy a good deal cause thought he really really loved the card and wanted to keep it...and then he turns and sells it in a week..yeah that sucks..but i look at it like giving a loan..i don't loan money unless i am prepared to not get paid back..no matter what the guy says 'ill get my tax refund in a month etc'

do we ever believe the buyers intentions? its just about price im willing to let it go

I agree.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

I think the real focus of this thread is the ethics of the practice, the mechanics of it has its obvious risks. I have bought a few cards from Chris. In each case I have tried to purchase them as cheaply as possible. In some cases I have tried to turn around and sell some of them for more later and at no point have I ever tried to use pricing leverage by stating I intended to keep them for my own collection. As much as I enjoy bartering with Chris if it is found to be true that cards are being offered for sale that are not owned by him it will be disappointing and I will have to rethink purchasing from him.

If you are talking about the focus of the thread it's important to know it's not a "Chris" but is a "Kevin" unless I am mistaking?

[Econteachert205]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

I agree.

I agree too, except what is supposedly going on here is happening before the initial transaction takes place using scans of a card not yet the property of the second seller. As far as I'm concerned, as soon as I sell an item the buyer has the right to sell the item, but not before agreeing to the first transaction.

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by Leon

If you are talking about the focus of the thread it's important to know it's not a "Chris" but is a "Kevin" unless I am mistaking?

Sorry I meant Kevin.

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

I agree too, except what is supposedly going on here is happening before the initial transaction takes place using scans of a card not yet the property of the second seller. As far as I'm concerned, as soon as I sell an item the buyer has the right to sell the item, but not before agreeing to the first transaction.

Right. I posted this earlier.

If it's true and I hope it's not, it's unsavory. I don't mind someone making money by buying from one source and selling to another however, if it resulted in cancelled sales because the card could not be obtained from the original source that is inexcusable. Straight out non-performance of an agreed upon contract.

[ullmandds]

personally I think this practice is cheesy and sleezy. Way too many ways for the deal to fall apart.

I may be prickly...but I am a man of my honor...when I make deals I follow through...and I expect the deals I make to as well. I realize there are exceptions...but when this becomes the norm...or a common occurrence I call Bullschlitz!

Someone named Adrian comes to mind.

[ezez420]

With all of this, Kevin has written me privately a few times but has not put any response to this post admitting or denying it. I will let him do that.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by ezez420

With all of this, Kevin has written me privately a few times but has not put any response to this post admitting or denying it. I will let him do that.

Ed- You really know how to hold a grudge, I'll give you that. This is all from sour grapes when you sabotaged a thread of mine on the BST Saturday night (T206 Lumley SGC 96) and I called you on it with Leon. First of all, this was a card that I did not do a deal, but I had purchased other T206s from the seller. The last card I purchased from this person took me almost 30 days to receive. We had other conversations about this card, but I never purchased the card. Where is the card advertised exactly Ed? Where did I put it up for sale Ed? Where has it been on the BST? I never, never advertised the card. I was in talks about a potential trade with another member on a card he had, and was offering trade possibilities. There was never any sale price offered. I have had many, many successful transactions over the last 5-6 years with a lot of board members. No complaints to my knowledge, Leon could probably answer best.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by ezez420

With all of this, Kevin has written me privately a few times but has not put any response to this post admitting or denying it. I will let him do that.

As far as these accusations go, Ed never mentioned he posted a thread on the main forum about this. I did tell him twice to not send me any more emails or PM's or I would ask Leon for assistance...

[ezez420]

Since you stated you did not advertise but offered a trade to someone. Did you offer to trade a card that you owned or had in your possession? I think that is pretty much the topic of the conversation and whether people think it is right or wrong to offer something you don't own. Did you back out of the deal on the card because you could not trade it?

By all means if people think I am wrong I take responsibility but I am calling out the practice and it is a card I own.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by ezez420

Since you stated you did not advertise but offered a trade to someone. Did you offer to trade a card that you owned or had in your possession? I think that is pretty much the topic of the conversation and whether people think it is right or wrong to offer something you don't own. Did you back out of the deal on the card because you could not trade it?

By all means if people think I am wrong I take responsibility but I am calling out the practice and it is a card I own.

It is a card you own because I didn't buy it, period...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

It is a card you own because I didn't buy it, period...

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you buy it?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I understand the OP's disgust in someone trying to sell his card. For me it is only bad if the card is not for sale by the OP.

I think it is pretty slimy myself but trying to profit on someone else's card(s) has become very common.

Example: Person A is selling a T206 Cobb for $200. Person B thinks wow I can get $300 for that card. Instead of taking the risk of buying the card they shop it around to others saying it is available at $300. Person B finds a buyer(person C) at $300 so they buy the card from Person A and then ship it to person C for a $100 -shipping profit. It takes all the risk out of selling cards because you never own them or have $ invested.

Ben- Please understand, this was not Ed's card. He bought the card from the same seller that I bought other T206s from...

[ezez420]

Did you or did you NOT offer to trade the card before having it? And if so why did you not buy the card? If you never owned the card how did you offer to trade to another member on this board? Don't you usually have to pay for an item before offering for sale/trade? You have yet to answer that question.

[Leon]

For the record I asked Ed (hi Ed) not to butt in on the BST. And requested that if he wants to voice a concern then he should start a thread. There shouldn't be interference in the BST areas unless the item in question is somehow fraudulent or there are those type issues. But otherwise, there shouldn't be too many comments in the BST areas, besides (what I feel is) benign joking around ...and praise is usually ok too ....Ya'll get the idea.


.

[ruth-gehrig]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Ben- Please understand, this was not Ed's card. He bought the card from the same seller that I bought other T206s from...

This "was not Ed's card"? Does Ed currently have possession of the card? Is he not the lawful owner of the card currently?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by ezez420

Did you offer to trade the card before having it? Why did you not buy the card?

I answered already. This was a card from a guy that I bought other T206s from. I mentioned it in trade talks with just one person because of previous sales experience with the potential buyer and seller. The last card I bought from him took almost a month before I received it in the mail. Please stop trying to make something more out of this....

[ezez420]

I will leave it alone.