A-Rod and his classier counterpart

[bk400]

Was reading in one of the New York tabloids today that A-Rod was not only a steroids cheat, but also a government snitch who ratted out fellow players in the steroids case. Goodness.

Here's a list of some "villains" in various sports -- and their classier alter egos. Other nominations?

1) A-Rod....David Ortiz
2) Pete Rose....Ichiro
3) Barry Bonds...Hank Aaron
4) John McEnroe...Bjorn Borg
5) Novak...Rafa
6) Aaron Rodgers...Eli Manning
7) Ndamukong Suh...Aaron Donald
8) Bill Romanowski...Mike Singletary
9) Chad Ochocinco...Larry Fitzgerald
10) James Harden...Joe Dumars
11) Serena...Venus

[G1911]

Ortiz was also a steroid cheat.

[pokerplyr80]

Do people really consider Serena a villain? This is the first I've heard of it.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by G1911

Ortiz was also a steroid cheat.

Perhaps. But he was a much classier one.

[Seven]

I think it's rich people are raking Alex Rodriguez over the coals. He was being pressured by the DEA, he had a sit down with federal agents. I'm sure this was a case of give them the names, or face serious penalties, potentially jail time. I obviously cannot speak for everyone, but it's easy to approach this situation, through a keyboard with the mentality of "don't snitch" when you're not the one facing a prison sentence.

He's not a classy individual, I think this has been established. I care little for what he did off the baseball field, while he was on it, he was a fantastic player, and put up numbers. Were they influenced by Steroids? Yes, but I've stated my position pretty clearly on that. If I was an owner, I would've happily had him on my team, he put butts in seats, and help the team win ballgames.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Do people really consider Serena a villain? This is the first I've heard of it.

She was outspoken and became too egotistical in her behavior, and that put people off. But villianess, no.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Do people really consider Serena a villain? This is the first I've heard of it.

She might not be a villain per se, but I don't think she's a particularly classy player or person (see, e.g., her tirade against that lineswoman at the US Open). I much preferred watching her sister, even though she didn't win nearly as much.

[Casey2296]

Recently watched the Carl Erskine biography, an amazing story of personal character, which is sorely lacking in many people today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Ortiz was also a steroid cheat.

I'm a Red Sox person but Ortiz is not in A Rod's league as a player. Then again almost no one else is either.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm a Red Sox person but Ortiz is not in A Rod's league as a player. Then again almost no one else is either.

I would be shocked if a single person argued that he is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I would be shocked if a single person argued that he is.

The gap is so great he's not really an apt choice for an alter ego to A Rod, even if he were clean.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Seven

I think it's rich people are raking Alex Rodriguez over the coals. He was being pressured by the DEA, he had a sit down with federal agents. I'm sure this was a case of give them the names, or face serious penalties, potentially jail time. I obviously cannot speak for everyone, but it's easy to approach this situation, through a keyboard with the mentality of "don't snitch" when you're not the one facing a prison sentence.

He's not a classy individual, I think this has been established. I care little for what he did off the baseball field, while he was on it, he was a fantastic player, and put up numbers. Were they influenced by Steroids? Yes, but I've stated my position pretty clearly on that. If I was an owner, I would've happily had him on my team, he put butts in seats, and help the team win ballgames.

Fair points, Seven. This said, I would be very surprised if jail time was something that A-Rod feared. First, he was a user / purchaser of the steroids and not a dealer (as far as we know). Second, and perhaps more importantly, he probably has a mid- 9-figure net worth and can afford the legal representation that that suggests. He would have been well advised. I can't recall the last time I've read about a guy with anywhere near that level of resources getting put in jail for a violent crime, much less a non-violent drug offense. I suspect that he was concerned about his legacy and ratted out everyone else to try to make the case that he wasn't the only guy juicing up.

Presumably, there were a lot of players using / purchasing steroids during that time. And I am guessing that the feds were able to talk to most of them. But, as far as the reports are to be believed, it was the richest guy amongst all of them that spilled the beans.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So you think the honorable thing to do would have been to protect the other cheaters?

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So you think the honorable thing to do would have been to protect the other cheaters?

I think the honorable thing would have been to limit his responses to his own actions or omissions. I don't see how it helps him to cast aspersions about others unless, of course, it is to burnish his own reputation by comparison.

[ClementeFanOh]

Here's one bk-

Ronaldo /Messi

Trent King

[SyrNy1960]

From someone who has been a fan and collector of Arod since 1995: Arod had the potential to be a great player without PEDs. Arod is a narcissistic, self-centered douche-bag, who only cares about himself.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Here's one bk-

Ronaldo /Messi

Trent King

That's an excellent one. I'm kicking myself for not coming up with that one myself!

I'm trying to decide what Ronaldo's most distasteful move was, and it's hard. The Saudi thing; the celebration where he shows off his abs; the celebration where he hikes up his shorts and flexes his quads; his attitude with Man United. But I think his actions while wearing his country's jersey in the World Cup probably rises to the top of a pretty high pile. It's a shame, because he was so awesome to watch in his prime.

[mrreality68]

Wow Really Good List and not surprising about A-Rod.
He was all about himself and self preservation

[packs]

Is there any doubt the "unnamed all star" isn't David Ortiz?

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by packs

Is there any doubt the "unnamed all star" isn't David Ortiz?

Barry Bonds?

[packs]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

Barry Bonds?

Don't think Barry would have been relevant to anyone by this time.

It is most likely Ortiz in my mind and I would also assume the reason he managed to go "unnamed" is because they work together now.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by packs

don't think barry would have been relevant to anyone by this time.

It is most likely ortiz in my mind and i would also assume the reason he managed to go "unnamed" is because they work together now.

👍🏻💯

[BobbyStrawberry]

I think this is the first time I've ever heard David Ortiz called "classy"... I guess, relative to A-rod, he is, but that's not saying much...

[Seven]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I think this is the first time I've ever heard David Ortiz called "classy"... I guess, relative to A-rod, he is, but that's not saying much...

A lot of revisionist history going around, after Ortiz was nearly murdered by a Drug Cartel.

As a side note, I'm wondering when the shoe falls on the NBA's massive doping scandal. It's pretty much been unspoken about, how much of a problem PED's are in that league. Derrick Rose has even been on the record about it. Also considering the NBA has the laxest policy out of the big 4 when it comes to drug testing.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Seven

A lot of revisionist history going around, after Ortiz was nearly murdered by a Drug Cartel.

As a side note, I'm wondering when the shoe falls on the NBA's massive doping scandal. It's pretty much been unspoken about, how much of a problem PED's are in that league. Derrick Rose has even been on the record about it. Also considering the NBA has the laxest policy out of the big 4 when it comes to drug testing.

What did Rose say? I'd be interested to read that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I think this is the first time I've ever heard David Ortiz called "classy"... I guess, relative to A-rod, he is, but that's not saying much...

Papi is a folk hero around these parts.

[Mark17]

O.J. Simpson / Walter Payton

[Seven]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

What did Rose say? I'd be interested to read that.

https://www.espn.com.sg/nba/news/story?id=6576340

Rose was one of several professional athletes asked the following question by ESPN the Magazine for its May 16 issue: "If 1 equals 'What are PEDs (Performance Enhancing Drugs)'? and 10 equals 'Everybody's Juicing' ... How big of an issue is illegal enhancing in your sport?"

In response, Rose said, "Seven. It's huge, and I think we need a level playing field, where nobody has that advantage over the next person."

When the article came out, Stern and a ton of players, pushed back against the narrative, and then Rose retracted it saying that he "didn't even remember the question being asked"

It wouldn't exactly be surprising though. A lot of the (now) older NBA guys from the 90s have talked about cycling doses of vioxx, back then, which is a PED. And It'll be a cold day in hell before I buy that someone like Lebron James, with tens of thousands of miles and minutes on him, could churn out a 29-8-7 season at the age of 38.

[DocScoot]

Are we talking actual villains or just media villains? Not sure I see Novak belonging on the list if the former.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I sure hope LeBron did not take PEDs.

https://deadspin.com/lebron-jameds-w...sch-1850834572

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Seven

https://www.espn.com.sg/nba/news/story?id=6576340

Rose was one of several professional athletes asked the following question by ESPN the Magazine for its May 16 issue: "If 1 equals 'What are PEDs (Performance Enhancing Drugs)'? and 10 equals 'Everybody's Juicing' ... How big of an issue is illegal enhancing in your sport?"

In response, Rose said, "Seven. It's huge, and I think we need a level playing field, where nobody has that advantage over the next person."

When the article came out, Stern and a ton of players, pushed back against the narrative, and then Rose retracted it saying that he "didn't even remember the question being asked"

It wouldn't exactly be surprising though. A lot of the (now) older NBA guys from the 90s have talked about cycling doses of vioxx, back then, which is a PED. And It'll be a cold day in hell before I buy that someone like Lebron James, with tens of thousands of miles and minutes on him, could churn out a 29-8-7 season at the age of 38.

Thanks - interesting that he walked back his comments like that.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by DocScoot

Are we talking actual villains or just media villains? Not sure I see Novak belonging on the list if the former.

You're right in that he's not a villain in the same way that OJ Simpson (by the way, a nice addition to the list) is a villain. But he's easy to root against.

When he played Nick Kyrgios in the Wimbledon final last year, I was sort of hoping that they would both default at the exact same time and there would no winner declared.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I sure hope LeBron did not take PEDs.

https://deadspin.com/lebron-jameds-w...sch-1850834572

Indeed. It would be terrible for the sport. But it would settle the debate once and for all: Jordan for the win.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Papi is a folk hero around these parts.

"This is our f*****g city."

Still sends chills down my spine.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sammy Sosa/Frank Thomas

[steve B]

Not counting his brief play in 94

95 - part time team finishes 1st.
96 - finally full time team finishes 2nd
97 - team finishes 1st
98-2000 team either 2nd or third.
2001 -No Arod 1st

New team
2000 no Arod finshed 4th after being 1st in 99
2001 with him finished 4th
Same 2002-2003
2004 no Arod- 3rd

New team
Pre-Arod, long string of division wins
2004 - divison win again, as you'd figure for a team that was a perennial winner with 100+wins the previous two years.
2005 - 6 still 1st
2007 - retirement, aside from 2014 always in the top 3.
2014, not much change without him.
2016 -with him not playing full time -4th
2017 -without him 2nd

It could be said that he made all his teams worse. At best he had essentially no effect on his teams finish, and all three finished better after he left.

Gaudy numbers, but not much else.

Also a fairly decent argument against WAR, because
2000 Arod 10.4
2001 Carlos Guillen 2.3

2003 arod 8.4
2004 Michael Young 1.9

His last few years weren't good, so that comparison wouldn't be particularly fair. but his replacement the year after he retired was Matt Holliday who also had a negative WAR at DH that year.

He probably hung on at least a couple years too long. If I remember it right he got a licensing contract from the Yankees a few years before where he got a portion of the money from any 700th home run merchandizing.

[packs]

Listen I hate to defend A-rod on any points but the Yankees don't win the 2009 World Series without him. He was a beast in the postseason that year.

[Peter_Spaeth]

His numbers are compelling. The notion that he did not help his teams is, to me, just wrong. Trash him for being a dickhead, but not for his on field performance.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His numbers are compelling. The notion that he did not help his teams is, to me, just wrong. Trash him for being a dickhead, but not for his on field performance.

100% agree.

He was extremely valuable to his teams. You can't judge a teams win total by the performance of one guy, especially during his Rangers years. It would be one thing if he was a starting pitching, but position players get maybe 4 at bats a game to make an impact, what about the eight other guys?

Yes, the numbers were influenced by PED's but Rodriguez was an elite offensive talent, and for a good portion of his career, an elite defensive talent as well. There's a reason why the list of, hitters that reached the 600 Home Run and 3000 Hits, milestone, is so small.

Hell he would've hit 700 had the Yankees not forced him into an early retirement. He was a shell by his last season, but still.

[G1911]

Arguing that Rodriguez did not benefit his teams, and maybe hurt them, with his historically great performance is utterly ridiculous and unreasonable. If he did not benefits his teams with his 3 MVP’s, 140 OPS+ and 117 WAR, nobody in baseball ever has. Dislike of a person does not make any bad thing said about them true or reasonable.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Papi is a folk hero around these parts.

He lived a few houses down from me when I was a first-year in law school. This was 2005, so his legend was already cemented. He spent a fair bit of time in his yard, and I had to resist the urge to be this creepy guy:

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by G1911

Arguing that Rodriguez did not benefit his teams, and maybe hurt them, with his historically great performance is utterly ridiculous and unreasonable. If he did not benefits his teams with his 3 MVP’s, 140 OPS+ and 117 WAR, nobody in baseball ever has. Dislike of a person does not make any bad thing said about them true or reasonable.

he might be disliked I agree. He might be controversial but his style and personality and business acumen is serving him well in life. He is on TV, has his own businesses with a high net worth, is a part owner of an NBA team, and seems to be enjoying his life and family and his dating history is pretty good to

[Peter_Spaeth]

Isn't A Rod's obvious counterpart Jeter? I mean sure Jeter wasn't a power hitter, but they're inseparable as bad guy good guy. ARod's badness did a lot, IMO, to enhace Jeter's stature because Jeter was everything ARod was not despite not having nearly the same ability -- clean, modest, team oriented, clutch (by reputation anyhow).

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Isn't A Rod's obvious counterpart Jeter? I mean sure Jeter wasn't a power hitter, but they're inseparable as bad guy good guy. ARod's badness did a lot, IMO, to enhace Jeter's stature because Jeter was everything ARod was not despite not having nearly the same ability -- clean, modest, team oriented, clutch (by reputation anyhow).

Jeter crossed my mind for sure. I'd be curious to hear from diehard Yankees fans about how they feel.

I went with David Ortiz because (i) at well over 500 home runs, he's a power guy like A-Rod who also had a bit of the PED taint to overcome and (ii) he seemed to be everything for the Red Sox that A-Rod wasn't for the Yankees.

I think that what a previous poster said about how A-Rod makes his teams worse resonates with me in terms of perception, even if the numbers make that argument statistically questionable. Whereas with David Ortiz, it is the opposite. The clear perception (defer to diehard Red Sox fans) is that he was the cornerstone of the three WS winning teams. I don't know whether the stats actually bear that out, but it is probably considered blasphemy in the Red Sox territory to argue otherwise.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bk400

Jeter crossed my mind for sure. I'd be curious to hear from diehard Yankees fans about how they feel.

I went with David Ortiz because (i) at well over 500 home runs, he's a power guy like A-Rod who also had a bit of the PED taint to overcome and (ii) he seemed to be everything for the Red Sox that A-Rod wasn't for the Yankees.

I think that what a previous poster said about how A-Rod makes his teams worse resonates with me in terms of perception, even if the numbers make that argument statistically questionable. Whereas with David Ortiz, it is the opposite. The clear perception (defer to diehard Red Sox fans) is that he was the cornerstone of the three WS winning teams. I don't know whether the stats actually bear that out, but it is probably considered blasphemy in the Red Sox territory to argue otherwise.

Manny 04 i think as much as or more than Ortiz.