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#1
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1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:
http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html Here is a recap of what was done: http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I
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Collection: https://www.flickr.com/photos/132359235@N05/sets/ Ebay listings: https://www.ebay.com/sch/harrydoyle/...p2047675.l2562 |
#2
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That 1a/1b job is not a restoration, that's a huge reconstruction.
I suppose if the card is doctored and then sold it would only be right if the before/after pictures are disclosed during the auction or prior to the private sale. How would you feel if the front was used but the back was completely changed with a period back? I'm not against restoration/reconstruction as long as there is full disclosure. Perhaps this is a turning point in the hobby where this is going to be more widely accepted and common place. Does anybody know how many hours were spent on the Wagner ($14K) reconstruction job?
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fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something cool you're looking to find a new home for. |
#3
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Anyone see it in person? I'd guess it will be in white plains tomorrow. Almost looks a little amateurish with the black border lines drawn back in, and it looks like the added edge are still slightly separated. Could just be my phone though
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"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
#4
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They had it at the National.
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#5
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I saw it in their case at the Chantilly show in October. I couldn’t see the back. The front looked like an attractive, mid-grade example from a distance. From close up, to me anyway, it looked like someone had hand drawn on some of the lines. The other repairs were not really detectable to my untrained/unassisted eyes, but the lines were.
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Mantle Master Set - as complete as it is going to get Yankees Game Used Hat Style Run (1923-2017): 57/60 (missing 2008/9 holiday hats & 2017 Players Weekend) |
#6
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The sad thing is that the original before restoration wasn't so bad.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#7
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Quote:
Just had to get that out of my system, I guess. To those of you reading this thread, my apologies for the literary outburst! Larry Last edited by ls7plus; 11-22-2018 at 08:52 PM. |
#8
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I would be concerned with what the card will look like 10 years from now
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#9
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Restoring the card itself is one thing, but adding "borders" to a borderless card that is just not right.
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Wanted : Detroit Baseball Cards and Memorabilia ( from 19th Century Detroit Wolverines to Detroit Tigers Ty Cobb to Al Kaline). |
#10
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What did the Wagner look like before it was restored?
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#11
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pics added to the first post for those who aren't able to click through the links provided by Jobu
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#12
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Quote:
+1 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
#13
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Quote:
"Near-perfect centering between the added upper and side borders, even corner wear reflecting VG/EX quality, and a virtually completely enhanced Sweet Caporal 150 Subject, Factory 25 verso...." Last edited by slightlyrounded; 11-23-2018 at 01:31 AM. |
#14
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I agree that there is a difference between restoration and such a wholesale change with foreign parts that there is a question if the card can be considered original/authentic. As a collector of original items, I wouldn't be interested in the latter. "Some of it is original" isn't enough for me. If someone else doesn't have a problem with owning it, I'm not going to argue with them as it is in part a matter of personal sentiments, taste and philosophy. People collect game used jerseys with added on missing nameplates and numbers.
One instance where major wholesale change with foreign material is justifiable to me is when the central image is majorly damaged. I still wouldn't want to own it, but I understand and appreciate why that would be done. Last edited by drcy; 11-23-2018 at 01:01 AM. |
#15
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Quote:
Yes, they disclosed the card had work done to it, but the side by side gives a much better indication of just HOW EXTENSIVE that work was, not just on the borders but on the back. Anyone want to change their opinion now?!?! Jason19th - I thought about this and was wondering if someone might suggest it's a sign of the hobby maturing. I'm not sure I agree, but it is something to consider. I think it's a very complicated issue, especially if the concept of these being "commodities" is going to continue. I do worry that while these sorts of issues have certainly brought more interest and money into the hobby, it's not necessarily improved education and knowledge. For permanent sustainability, I think it all needs to go hand in hand. |
#16
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I was
going to start a thread just like this....
I agree 100% .... with poster |
#17
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That's a pretty cool web page with the different Wagner's shown in pre-restoration and pre-slabbed states.
Is there a reason the McNall/Gretzky Wagner isn't shown side by side with the uncut panel and the slabbed card?
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fr3d c0wl3s - always looking for OJs and other 19th century stuff. PM or email me if you have something cool you're looking to find a new home for. |
#18
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I think all of us would prefer an unrestored to a restored copy of a card. However, sometimes because of price or rarity this is impossible. In those cases I am fine with restored copies. The Wagner is nice looking and will sell for a fraction of what a similar appearing unrestored copy would sell for, bringing it into the availability of more collectors. This is not the only restored copy of a rare card in s current auction. LOTG has a restored Ward Four Base Hits in it's auction ending Saturday. In this case it is literally the only way for a collector to get the card. There are two known copies and the unrestored copy, which sold for between $150,000 and $200,000 in a private sale, is buried in an advanced collection and not coming out. In both cases and others, the restored copy should sell for 10-20% of the unrestored copy, depending on the appearance and the amount of restoration.
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#19
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I don't think that photo has been made public. I believe the original seller says he has a photo but won't share it. The cutter is in the clink and there is little hope of getting an image out of him - even if he kept one.
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Collection: https://www.flickr.com/photos/132359235@N05/sets/ Ebay listings: https://www.ebay.com/sch/harrydoyle/...p2047675.l2562 |
#20
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good luck with the four base hits
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#21
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LOL. Yeah that was sorta the same thought I had.
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
#22
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$14,000 for restoration? Heck you can buy a reprint for $2.00.
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#23
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Re-cutter. The card had already been cut off the strip when he bought it.
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#24
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I'm not comfortable with the AUTHENTIC designation. An authentic card should be one that is 100% original, but has a major problem like a missing piece or a punch hole that doesn't qualify it for a numerical grade.
But the added paper, coloring, glue, etc. is not authentic to the card. It is foreign material. I think it should read RESTORED in the upper right corner, and the word AUTHENTIC be removed. Do others agree with this? |
#25
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Quote:
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#26
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Quote:
Hi, Barry, Larry |
#27
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Quote:
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T206 154/518 second time around R312 49/50 1962 Topps 598/598 super set 694/697 ...whatever I want |
#28
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PSA refused to grade a 71T because they said color was added, why not a restored "grade."
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#29
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Wagner
Why wasn't the original card cut into pieces so that several 200k+ restored cards could be made?
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#30
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Jeff....
I am in complete agreement with you
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#31
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Quote:
Larry |
#32
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Quote:
I dont know... taking tobacco off the back, retouching a scrape on the front, even slight a trim maybe, but just creating a card on over an origional isnt what id like
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#33
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I agree. Am I crazy to think that the card would have actually brought in more money had it not been reconstructed? I think they threw away 14k and lost more $ in the process. For the record, I have no problem with this as long as it is disclosed, but I think collectors will pay more for a rough example.
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#34
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Quote:
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