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  #1  
Old 01-16-2012, 01:57 PM
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Default A Question Regarding Pinback Buttons

As an avid (yet far from advanced) pinback collector, I have benefited greatly from the shared wisdom of friends made through this board, Paul's book, and Hake's guide. However, I would like to hear your opinions regarding do-dads, trinkets, and ribbons, specifically as they relate to value.

My thoughts are that charms (balls, bats, gloves, player figures, animals, rabbits feet, etc) and generic ribbons may add to the esthetics of a pin, but contribute little or no monetary value. Most were added by vendors after the pins were manufactured as a way to make the product more attractive. There are a number of ebay sellers (one in particular) who add them after they purchase them from ebay. I have no issue with this so long as the pieces being added are the same vintage as the pin.

Where things get interesting, is when small pennants or ribbons with team names, event dates, player photos, etc. that can clearly be linked to the event are added. In some cases, these clearly contribute value such as with the 1914 miracle braves pin. It’s less clear when you consider a PM10 of Dizzy Dean with a Cubs pennant attached.

What are your thoughts on this topic?

This question is for Paul…Do the prices from your book reflect the value of the pin pictured, or the pin plus the add on pictured? One example I’m interested in specifically are the 1968 Tigers WS pins. Are the values the same (in your opinion) without the ribbons?
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  #2  
Old 01-16-2012, 02:15 PM
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The "book values" may not be impacted, but they consistently sell for lots more when the ribbons and charms are included (and are attractive). I have followed this matter closely, and the ribbons/charms can make a huge difference in the actual prices realized.

I know that I'll pay lots more if the piece is more attractive... below are some of my Reds Pins. I bypassed a ton of them (witout the nice ribbons/charms) until I could find these prime examples.

The seller that Mike referenced on ebay adds brand new ribbons/charms to his vintage pins (and pawns them off as all-original). This guy has no scruples, and you can see in his buying history, that he purchases bulk groups of charms, new ribbon by the yard, etc. He has some very elaborate and ornate "creations". Perhaps not as alarming as the autograph fraud discussed on this forum, but these items were definitely created to deceive.

Any somewhat experienced collector can tell the original ribbon from the new. The materials aren't even similar. Plus, after you've seen enough, you know which ribbons/charms should go with which pins.
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Last edited by perezfan; 01-16-2012 at 02:26 PM.
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  #3  
Old 01-16-2012, 03:06 PM
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Default pinbacks

Hi Mike,
This is a great question that I guess would have to have a few levels to answer. As for the look of the pin Yes ribbons and items added do make the pin look nicer and was a great avenue for eye candy but in my opinion unless its linked to a specific "dated" or lets say "team name" ribbon. I really cant see that it would be adding value to the pin. I myself buy the pin for the pin .
Anyone at anytime can add a vintage piece of ribbon from another pin . I have seen ribbons used from political pins ,football pin items used on baseball pins. Alot of the athletics pins sometimes have a small plastic elephant on them . The elephant was also used on many political pins. Some of the PM10 player pins in Pauls book have the small alumimum ewell blackwell or ralph kiner trinket with the pin . THat never came on any of those pins as it was a bit o honey candy send away for I believe about 8-10 players. I have the advirtisement somewhere and will try and scan it . The small little leather gloves do seem to add a value to the pin but really are people willing to spend lets say an extra 20-40 dollars on lets say a common PM10 player pin that has that little glove with it? I wouldnt. To me it was all marketing. Two of the same cars put side by side one has a ribbon on it the other doesnt. Which one do you buy? I guess the ribbons are a nice item to have but for me like I have always said I buy the pin for the pin.

Last edited by batsballsbases; 01-16-2012 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 01-16-2012, 03:21 PM
springpin springpin is offline
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Mike,

Like all good questions, there is no simple answer. Since you made reference to my book and my explanation of ribbons and "dangles" on pinbacks I won't begin at square one.

First, I know the pins on eBay that you are referring to that are vintage pins that have been "loaded" with modern ribbons and dangles to enhance their visual appeal. By logical extension, we tend to be willing to part with more money for something that both is nice and "looks" nice. In my opinion adding modern day ribbons and such to old pinbacks is to alter their integrity. I never do it.
Second, over the many years (now over 50) I have been collecting pinbacks I have assempbled a small stash of old ribbons and dangles that somehow got removed from pinbacks to which they were once attached. If I acquire an old pinback that has a remnant of a ribbon, I will sometimes replace the torn ribbon with a vintage ribbon of the same era. I would estimate I have done this on no more than 20-30 pins out of the thousands I own. I have done it more with football pins than any other sport. Not sure why ribbons on football pins tend to be more tattered, but that has been my experience. For the most part, however, I retain the pinbacks as I found them. If a collector is going to add a ribbon or dangle to enhance visual appeal, then I would insist (from an integrity standpoint) the ribbon be of the same vintage as the pin. Finding ribbons from the 1896-1910 era is extremely difficult.

Third, as I say in my book, ribbons that have printing on them should NEVER be removed, no matter how badly they are tattered. World Series pinbacks sometimes have printing on them. They greatly add to the value of the pinback, as well as help validate the reason for its production.

However, I don't think I have directly answered your question, that being, are pinback buttons worth more with a ribbon or dangle than without. My answer is a clear "no." The ribbons/dangles were not necessarily made by the pinmaker, but were added by a vendor (vendors called the ribbons and dangles "set-ups") before selling the pinback to a customer (as at a ball game). It is true that back in the 1950s a customer could buy a player pin, for example, with no ribbon for 25 cents. The same pin with a RWB ribbon would cost 30 cents. The same pin with a ribbon and small bat might sell for 40 cents. And a "fully loaded" version, perhaps with two or more layered ribbons and a rabbit's foot would be 50 cents. One of my earliest memories of Yankee Stadium in 1958 was to see a vendor with a board full of pinbacks with the ribbons flapping in the breeze. They were an attention getter---it worked.

If you want to argue that a pinback without a ribbon that sold for 25 cents in 1958 is worth today half of what the same pin loaded with ribbons that originally sold for 50 cents, the math works, but that form of "value" resides only in the mind of a particular collector. If it were that easy to double the value of a pinback collection, the hunt would be on not for vintage pinbacks, but for vintage ribbons and dangles. If you reject the "double value" argument as being extreme, but adopt a more temperate position of "some" increase in value, then the argument is how much is "some." If the amount of "some" is greater than zero, it can't (or shouldn't be) more than a few percentage points, if that.

Finally Mike, you mentioned Hake's book. There is something most unusual about the pinbacks featured in that classic book (that cuts to the value of ribbons and dangles). It always was extremely curious to me why not ONE pinback in his book had a ribbon or dangle. Over the years I became good friends with Ted and had the opportinity to acquire many of his sports pinbacks. He told me he removed all the ribbons and dangles from the pins he photographed because they added no value to the pin and took up precious space in each page's layout. I elected to photograph my pinbacks with the ribbons and dangles for my book, but frankly I wonder how many fewer pages (and less cost) my book would have been if I had been more judicious in using space. After photographing the pinbacks, he added the ribbons back on the pinbacks (if they came with one) and sold them in his auctions and sales.

Hope this helps.

Paul
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  #5  
Old 01-16-2012, 03:49 PM
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Mark, Al, Paul...great answers ALL. Your responses really illustrate one my favorite aspects of this great hobby "subjectivity".

I have a clarifying question for you Paul. I LOVE your book and it has provided me untold hours of enjoyment. I understand the book is a "guide" but I'm hoping to better understand how to use it. You picture a 1968 Tigers World Series pin in your book that features printed ribbons X326. You place a value of $75 on that pin. If the example YOU own did not have those ribbons, would you still have assigned a value of $75? I think I know how you will answer, but I don't want to make assumptions.
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  #6  
Old 01-16-2012, 04:24 PM
springpin springpin is offline
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Mike,

I'm very pleased you have enjoyed my book. That is why I wrote it.

There are two interpretations to your question. The pinback in question is 3.5" with two ribbons with printing on them in reference to the 1968 World Series (it is a Tigers pin, for those in question). I valued that pin at $75. If that pinback had no ribbons, just the pinback itself, the value would be less than $75, perhaps 50% less in this case. A second interpretation of your question is, if I didn't own that particular pinback with ribbons, but a fellow collector sent me a picture of it for inclusion in my book, then I would value it the same, $75.

Over the years I have been asked why I did not include pins in my book that I did not personally own. It was a matter of cost and logistics. I did not want anyone to mail me their pins for photographic depiction, for fear they might get lost or damaged in transit. Second, I did not have the budget to travel around the country to photograph the pins of other collectors (although several offered, being in North Carolina I just never "happened" to be in the neighborhood of Colorado, California, etc.). Third, I was told there were various electronic technologies for submitting individual images by computer, but it involved integrating a lot of technology to have the final product be a bound book. The cost would have exceeded my budget. As I said in the book, that was my first fling at digital photography, and the poor quality of some pages speak for itself. The stunning clarity of, for example, the Smithsonian book was achieved with photographic equipment (and skill) that far exceeded mine.
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  #7  
Old 01-16-2012, 05:41 PM
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Your first interpretation was what I was looking for Paul...Thank you. This is where we get into the subjective piece of the discussion. For me, the ribbons would not represent 50% of the value, but that helps me considerably when using your guide while making purchasing decisions.

And one more thing Paul...The photography of the book is fine with me. When you publish volume II we can compare
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  #8  
Old 01-17-2012, 07:52 PM
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Mike-Great thread. The questions that you have in regards to ribbons were some of the same questions that I had when looking through Paul's book. Yes, the increased value of pins with ribbons attached is subjective. My rule of thumb is that a generic,common ribbon would add zero value to the pin and Muchinsky's guide touches on this. I am amazed when people get into a bidding war on eBay for a fairly common pin because it has a charm attached. However, like pins, there are also rare ribbons specific to a particular event. The best example in the Muchinsky guide is the 1962 San Francisco Giants World Series pin (X-246)with the rare World Series ribbon. The pin is a generic crossed bats design and by itself, not a rare pin and priced accordingly. The ribbon seems to be rare and with the pin together, highly sought after. Until a box of these ribbons surfaces this pin greatly increases in value with the attached ribbon. The ribbon attached to the 1968 Tigers World Series pin that you cited (X-326)is not rare , but scarce. I would add $25 to the value of the pin with this ribbon. The ribbon can also be found on pin (X-319) which I happen to own. The large size varient (X-319) of this fairly common pin design is very scarce. I would deduct $25 from Paul's book if the pin was found without the ribbon. So yes, as your aware, in many cases the ribbon adds value to the pin. A very common ribbon for the 1968 World Series can be found on pins X-323 and X-324. These ribbons can be found in large quantities by themselves and would add little value to the pin. I would not pay a premium for this pin with the ribbon, which by itself, can be purchased for $5.

Last edited by Tigerden; 01-17-2012 at 07:54 PM.
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  #9  
Old 01-17-2012, 08:28 PM
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Default The question of exactly 'when' pin meets accessories?

Superb discussion.

On the note of - perhaps - someone "creating" a piece.

This pin is up on ebay right now - is it me or does the wear/aging of the pin not compare commensurately with the condition of the ribbon?

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Old 01-17-2012, 09:12 PM
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Default buttons

Yep ribbons are new bottom done with pinking shears. Small figures are all over ebay. Never saw that pin come with any ribbons.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batsballsbases View Post
Yep ribbons are new bottom done with pinking shears. Small figures are all over ebay. Never saw that pin come with any ribbons.
Thanx - I agree. I bought an all star pin from this guy - didn't think about this and just liked the ribbon/charm combo - lucky for me, it's not a large amount of money - drop more on lunch with my wife.

But, it's always good to learn. Very creative thinking on the part of the seller!
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Old 01-18-2012, 02:46 PM
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Mike H.
Since you mentioned the Cubs Dizzy Dean PM-10 pin in your original question (a very good one by the way), I thought I'd share my opinion. The three Cubs PM-10s from that time period (Dean, Hartnett and Lee) show up all the time meaning they are not scarce at all. However, they are seen without an attachment most of the time. I certainly prefer the attached pennant (or other attachments) if I am certain it is original. That of course is the tough part. I found the Hartnett with ribbons and a small pin indicating "1938" and have no reason to believe it is not original. Probably a vendor just wanted something different to separate him from competition. I think it adds a great deal to the pin and I was willing to spend more because of it. This is just one more thing that separates collecting pinbacks from cards or pennants.
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Old 01-20-2012, 10:55 AM
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Default 3.5" - Cincinnati Reds - 1961 N.L. Champs - Pin

Just picked this pin up recently and I think it fits this topic perfectly.

I've always seen the pin by itself with no ribbons ect... I was skeptical about buying it at first but now I'm thinking it may be the real deal. As you can see from the photos, it came with a cardboard backer. It appears someone bought it and put it away or a dealer didn't sell it because of the imperfections.

OR someone Frankensteined it! However, the dealer I bought it from doesn't typically deal in pins so I think it definitely has that going for it.

Either way its very striking...


Looking forward to hearing your thoughts / comments
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  #14  
Old 01-20-2012, 11:05 AM
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Hi Chris,
Yes definetely a Frankenstein job on the ribbons. (new) The pin I believe is real as it has a mate to it with the yankees name. If you didnt pay to much for it lets say 10-20 dollars it was a good deal. Are the ribbons just taped on in the back?
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:01 PM
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No, they are glued to the bottom portion of the pin.
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:52 AM
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I really enjoy pins; just gotten into them in the last two years. This is probably my favorite pin issue:



I generally prefer the pin w/o any crap attached to it. I can see where a collector who is making a display would enjoy having the crap on the pin, but I am very concerned with counterfeiting. I only have one with adornment and I did not pay extra for it:



Of course, I would have paid plenty extra for what's attached to this one:

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Old 01-21-2012, 12:04 PM
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Now that's one heck of an attachment!
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Old 01-21-2012, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Now that's one heck of an attachment!
Mark +1
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