T206 Wagner and Plank - They both didn't want their image on Tobacco cards

[mrvster]

Good evening Net 54ers!

I apologize that I have not posted in a while

I discuss T206 on a daily basis with some very experienced collectors.....

Today, we were discussing populations of the rarities of the set, when a long debated topic came up- did Plank block his image from the T206 set like Wagner did???

Why isn't Plank right up there in value like Wagner???

well, Plank is the sleeper.....as we are know the printing plate "didn't break"..

Plank did the same thing Wagner did.....


Let's put it to rest finally....

Plank 100% had a cease and desist of his image in the T206 set...

Plank is a sleeper right now....



lets start the facts...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Because Wagner was significantly better as a player and regarded as one the best ever at his position and of all-time. As well he's not a pitcher.

[mrvster]

Both HOFER s .....same mystery ......... same story...... doesn't warrant the huge valuation gap... one better than the other not justifying the huge gap...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Both HOFER s .....same mystery ......... same story...... doesn't warrant the huge valuation gap... one better than the other not justifying the huge gap...

Yes it does. That's literally every card and why they have value over one another. It matters who is depicted on the card.

[Smarti5051]

I suspect it is because for 40+ years I have been conditioned to understand Honus is the most significant card in the history of the hobby. I have heard the legend, and having a real one might even impress casual sports fans that have never collected cards. A T206 Plank could sit on Ebay for months with a $200 BIN if you blocked all of the Net54 members from accessing the listing. If you displayed it in your house, any conversation around the card would start with "are you related to him?"

Seriously though, there are lots of things about this hobby that make no sense. Why do "10s" command such a premium to "9s" even though the same card can literally get either grade depending on the day? Why does a dual rookie card of Magic Johnson and Larry Bird command less than a Zion Williamson rookie card? Why is Mickey Mantle so much more valuable than Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Lou Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio? The answer: Because the hobby gods say so!

[mrvster]

Yes.....I hear where you are coming from,

I think for years collectors thought "the printing plate broke" on the Plank which is ridiculous ...

if the correct story was publicized, Plank would be on Wagner's tail...which may happen as we get the story straight..

Doyle error proves that value and sky is the limit??

who knows who Doyle is???

time will tell on this, but my fellow collectors will solidify why there is no question Plank and Wagner did the same thing

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

A T206 Plank could sit on Ebay for months with a $200 BIN if you blocked all of the Net54 members from accessing the listing. If you displayed it in your house, any conversation around the card would start with "are you related to him?"

I should try that with this card.IMG_1733.jpg

[mrvster]

I Love it

[G1911]

If Plank sent a cease and desist, and his card was pulled as a result, it doesn't make sense to me it exists with both 150 and 350 backs.

I do think it is a good buy relative to the Wagner.

Some of the pulled ATC cards I just don't see a good explanation for that is rooted in the evidence. Maybe one day we'll uncover something, but some of the pulled cards are just guessing at this point.

[mrvster]

Yes.....350 will be explained by Sean....

I will let my friends explain...



HOFERs.....in this set T206, is Doyle a huge name???? look at that value???

Plank is the buy right now, total sleeper...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Yes.....350 will be explained by Sean....

I will let my friends explain...



HOFERs.....in this set T206, is Doyle a huge name???? look at that value???

Plank is the buy right now, total sleeper...

I'm not saying it isn't a good buy or not. I have only replied to the value disparity. The Doyle value has nothing to do with the player, has to do with the error. Same with Magee.

I do agree though that Plank is an incredibly good buy with huge room to grow.

[mrvster]

YES!!!!

Doyle will prove that

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Yes.....350 will be explained by Sean....

I will let my friends explain...



HOFERs.....in this set T206, is Doyle a huge name???? look at that value???

Plank is the buy right now, total sleeper...

I believe that Plank did deny ATC the use of his name and picture, just as Wagner did. It's possible that Plank was included in the 350 Series by mistake. The printers may have forgotten that they weren't supposed to use Plank. When someone realized the error the card was removed from production for a second time.

Since there are more 350 Series Planks than 150 Series, there should be significantly more Planks than Wagners.....at least twice as many. That still leaves them being ultra-scarce in relation to the demand for the Planks.

[Rhotchkiss]

I will post later on the topic, but (1) I love that card Sean!, and (2) here is version my son did about 5 years ago

[G1911]

It is entirely possible that Plank refused to allow the use of his image, they printed his card even without his signature (like the Ball and Hyland letters), Plank issued a cease and desist, American Lithography pulled his card, American Lithography then issued his card in the 350 series again, Plank sent another cease and desist or American Lithography pulled it without a second cease and desist.

I have not seen any evidence that any of these single events actually happened though, much less this chain. It is a possibility, one among many, unless there is some significant primary source evidence I am not aware of.

I don't think the plate theory is more likely than that American Lithography twice printed a card for Plank even though they didn't have his rights, and had a cease and desist order.

Some pulled American Lithography cards have some evidence (Wagner, the time period article on it being pulled), very strong circumstantial that supports a theory though it can hardly be said to be a fact (T227 Rodgers & Brown, their deaths), and others where there doesn't seem to be reasonable grounds to assert a theory is correct (T206 Plank, T220 Donovan & Corbett, etc.).

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Because Wagner was significantly better as a player and regarded as one the best ever at his position and of all-time. As well he's not a pitcher.

Plus 1. The Plank is a seriously cool card and not exactly inexpensive but I wouldn’t expect the gap to close.

[Rhotchkiss]

I strongly believe that the scarcity of T206 Wagner and Plank cards has to do with both men's opposition to being affiliated with tobacco. Besides the fact that its the most widely mentioned and earliest proffered explanation, Wagner and Plank's absence in almost every other tobacco issue is, I think, determinative. Neither player is in the T205 set, which is large and has most other contemporary HOFers. There are no Wagners or Planks in the T201, T202, T207, T213 or T3 sets. In fact, besides T206, the only tobacco set that Wagner is in is the T216 set, and I feel like those cards were pirated for that 1911-16 set from the earlier caramel (E) cards that use the same pose. The same is true for Plank, yet for some reason he also has a T204 card (Wagner does not) and is in the T208 set, which is strictly a Philly team set

Yet, while both players are part of an extremely few T issues, they are both widely found in the caramel/candy issues - E101, E102, E92, E105, E106, E107, etc; they are in confectionary issues, such as D303 and and D304 (in case of Wagner); they are in publication issues, such as W600, M101, etc; they are on all sorts of non-T post cards, such as Rose Co and Novelty Cutlery. Clearly, neither Wagner nor Plank had aversions to being used on a wide variety on non-T product-pieces. Thus, the scarcity of Wagner/Plank tobacco pieces, coupled their wide use on all products other than tobacco, seems to indicate that both were anti-tobacco.

I dont think it was a "money" thing because, as mentioned, both players are all over E, D, W, M and all sorts of other cards/issues. There were many tobacco companies, not all ATC, and I think it would be unrealistic to think all the tobacco companies, including huge ones, were cheap. Yet Crofts, out of Philly, general baking out of Rochester, and Nadja (out of STL I think), paid the necessary money that ATC and other profitable T companies did/could not. The money theory has too many logical holes.

I dont know enough about printing plates to opine there, other than I think the anti-tobacco argument makes the most sense. BTW, I believe Plank was a bit of a goodie goodie, adding to the likelihood he would be anti-tobacco and would not want kids chasing tobacco packs for his card. Regarding Wagner, note his 1949 Leaf card, where an older Wagner is in the act of sticking a huge wad of tobacco into his pie hole; interesting and perhaps ironic they used that image.

Plank was a great player, but Wagner was 10x the player and 100x the icon. Plus, there are more T206 Planks than Wagners (and Planks has 150 and 350 series, both facts mitigating against the fact that they were both pulled off the print bc only one contested), and the T206 Wagner is THE card of all collectibles. Plank is certainly an amazing and perhaps underrated card, but its utter chump change compared to the T206 Wagner (indeed, every other pre war card out there except a very few is chump change compared to the T206 Wagner).

Here are some T examples of Wagner and Plank -- very rare to have either on a tobacco card

[Pat R]

We are all just speculating until/if we find solid proof but I think that Plank being pulled might have had something to do with several different legal battles and new Tobacco Laws at the time of the T206 printings.

I have to head out but I will try and get some of the information together when I get back. Greg and I were in a discussion about all of this a few months ago that I wanted to look into more but haven't got around to it maybe he will chime in here about it.

Some of what was involved is right around the time when the T206's were printed there was a new law (mentioned in the Neal Ball letter among other documents) about having permission to use a players image. One exception was if the image was prior to 1904? (I have to check on the year) and Planks E107 which is the same image as his T206 falls in that category.

The majority of what we found was in court proceedings right at the time of the T206 printings and there is a ton of information to sift through including
different laws for each state/city and Philadelphia was one of the cities that was pushing for stricter laws. One of the court cases involved a legal battle between ATC and the Peoples Tobacco (T216).

[Carter08]

One argument I don’t love is the argument that Honus couldn’t have objected to tobacco because his leaf card shows him chewing. I get the argument from a superficial standpoint but it doesn’t hold for a bunch reasons - guy could be fine with tobacco for himself but not kids, he could have changed his mind after about 30 years, might be fine with chew but not cigarettes, etc.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

We are all just speculating until/if we find solid proof but I think that Plank being pulled might have had something to do with several different legal battles and new Tobacco Laws at the time of the T206 printings.

I have to head out but I will try and get some of the information together when I get back. Greg and I were in a discussion about all of this a few months ago that I wanted to look into more but haven't got around to it maybe he will chime in here about it.

Some of what was involved is right around the time when the T206's were printed there was a new law (mentioned in the Neal Ball letter among other documents) about having permission to use a players image. One exception was if the image was prior to 1904? (I have to check on the year) and Planks E107 which is the same image as his T206 falls in that category.

The majority of what we found was in court proceedings right at the time of the T206 printings and there is a ton of information to sift through including
different laws for each state/city and Philadelphia was one of the cities that was pushing for stricter laws. One of the court cases involved a legal battle between ATC and the Peoples Tobacco (T216).

Going off memory of our little research project:

We found legal cases in Wisconsin and Philadelphia in late 1908/early 1909 against the tobacco combination regarding the use of coupons and cards. Pat found some advertisements put into Philadelphia area newspapers in 1909 stating that the ATC and Polar Bear's (interesting that this brand and this brand only is highlighted) 'tags and coupons' were still being accepted at certain locations (implying there was reason consumers would think they were not good anymore). Much of the context is rather vague sometimes but the Philadelphia territory is highlighted in a number of documents as being distinct from other areas by the ATC, presumably in connection with stricter regulation in the Philadelphia area.


Cigarette cards and coupons were made illegal in 1897 with a law forbidding essentially anything but the tobacco itself to be inside the box. The tobacco companies legal challenge lost. In July of 1902 an amendment was passed that rephrased it to ban coupons and 'indecent or immoral' pictures (perhaps a reason the T cards have few sets of actresses like the N cards, and the ones they did make are less sexual by the standards of that time than many of the N cards), but apparently there was some confusion whether this was specifically replacing the old legislation or supplementing it. In 1907, after a report from the Congressional Ways and Means Committee, it was amended again to specifically allow coupons and cards, as long as it did not materially increase the size of the package. The government being the government of course sought to profit by allowing the tobacco companies to advertise in their cigarette packs. They instituted a two cent tax in this clause on coupon redemptions. This seemed to me to pretty much explain why the spate of T cards came when it did. They weren't legal during most of the 'gap' between the Mayo set and the 1909 card explosion, and they were generally used instead of coupons because at this time there was a pain-in-the-rear tax and actually redeeming coupons, but no such tax on pictures instead of redemption prizes.

We found a ton of other stuff, much of which was posted in the Boxing board even though it applies across sports and non-sports, but I think this was the relevant parts that haven't been posted before.

[Lobo Aullando]

Wasn't there also a change in the laws regarding tobacco product premiums? I recall reading that there were restrictions on those for a couple decades, and I've been wondering if that had any effect. (Folks should wait for more info before memory-banking this.)

And Plank was from Gettysburg, so there's some thought that even Unionists had some pretty hard feelings after the War.

Originally Posted by Pat R

We are all just speculating until/if we find solid proof but I think that Plank being pulled might have had something to do with several different legal battles and new Tobacco Laws at the time of the T206 printings.

I have to head out but I will try and get some of the information together when I get back. Greg and I were in a discussion about all of this a few months ago that I wanted to look into more but haven't got around to it maybe he will chime in here about it.

Some of what was involved is right around the time when the T206's were printed there was a new law (mentioned in the Neal Ball letter among other documents) about having permission to use a players image. One exception was if the image was prior to 1904? (I have to check on the year) and Planks E107 which is the same image as his T206 falls in that category.

The majority of what we found was in court proceedings right at the time of the T206 printings and there is a ton of information to sift through including
different laws for each state/city and Philadelphia was one of the cities that was pushing for stricter laws. One of the court cases involved a legal battle between ATC and the Peoples Tobacco (T216).