policy on auctions in progress?

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Posted By: Frank B

Is there a rule everyone follows regarding discussing ongoing
auctions? I have questions all the time on items but hesitate
to ask here about them because I don't won't to violate any
unwritten rule. Mostly it's questioning authenticity but sometimes
not. It's the sometimes not that I'm unclear on. Thanks.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Though the Rules are unwritten the following pretty much sums up sentiment on this board:

1. If the item is genuinely suspect then it's fair game to discuss an open auction;

2. If the item is properly listed in a category where every member of the board would have seen it then it would be fair game irrespective of whether it was suspect;

3. If the item is miscatagorized then irrespective of whether it is suspect it is inappropriate to discuss.

There are a number of honorable members of this board who would be happy to privately discuss an item without you having fear that they may try to snipe you. When in doubt try that route.

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Posted By: Ed Ivey

A very concise summary. Thank you, Steve. I move (though my motions carry no weight) for a referendum to add it to the rules icon, perhaps with the heading "overall board sentiment". "Unwritten rules" tend to make unwitting and well-intentioned people feel unwelcome. Just my opinion

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Posted By: T206Collector

...bidding on something, by asking a question on here you are giving that auction free advertising and potentially making it more expensive for yourself.

The more it is hard to find, the more your post will increase the traffic to the auction and ultimately the final price.

If you are not seriously considering bidding, then ask your question after the auction is over.



Visit http://www.t206collector.com for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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Posted By: leon

I agree...I might post this in the rules section but caveat it as preferred policy and not a steadfast rule....We have debated it and I am still not convinced it can ever be a steadfast rule....Nice suggestion...regards

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

A good question and I would agree with Steve's response. I would propose one little amendment onto Steve's summary which basically encompassed Ebay. My thoughts involve questions that pertain to items in house auctions. Granted, questions for these items would be fewer in number because there are fewer concerns about cards being authentic, trimmed, etc...However for house auctions I always thought the following was sound, however "unwritten" guidelines. Anyone is free to agree or disagree with what I have before. This is just my opinion so feedback is welcome.

1. Most house auctions are 3-4 weeks in length. So if you would like input on something, it is better to publically ask about an item early on in the auction. However if the auction is ending in a day or two, perhaps taking Steve's suggestion of writing an individual on the board privately would be the more appreciated avenue to take.

2. Even if the auction's end is a day or two away, if you have a question involving a Mastro item, REA item, or an item from the large auction houses, it is still probably ok to ask as most people know about these auction houses and scrutinize their offerings anyway. The only exception to this would be "outing" a "hidden gem" tucked away in a large group of cards. That is probably something that will be frowned upon. When in doubt, ask the question privately as that will always avoid ruffling any feathers around the community here.

3. For smaller auction houses that others may not know are going on or don't pay too much attention to, you might want to avoid outing cards here altogether as that will drive traffic to that item and certainly affect the price. Sometimes entire auctions can "fall through the cracks" and slip by unnoticed by a large portion of the card collecting community.

You really just have to use your good judgment altogether in deciding whether or not it's worth "outing" an auction item or not - be it Ebay or an auction house. Like I said above though, when in doubt, asking someone privately to a board member or two may be the best way to get your question answered without drawing attention to it. And if it's something you're not serious about trying to win anyway, waiting until the auction ends would be another good solution. Hope this helps....

-Brian

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Posted By: howard

Why is it considered bad form to discuss a miscategorized item that is up for auction? I assume it is because it could prevent a buyer from getting it at a much lower price than it would fetch if properly listed. However, in another current thread several posters opined that it is poor form for sellers to "troll" for suckers by listing high BIN prices. It seems like some forum members hold a double standard whereby it is OK for a buyer to to take advantage of a naive seller but not for a seller to take advantage of a naive buyer.

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Posted By: Paul S

Howard, the "reasoning" I have read by some on this board about a buyer getting a piece at below market value is something to the effect that, "Well, I've spent a lot of time and effort gaining knowledge of the subject and prices and therefore I deserve to be rewarded for that." Not saying if I agree with it or not, that's just how I've understood it.

So...which auction did I overlook that we are referring to?

*edited twice, for double word typo and spelling.

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Posted By: howard

I hear you, Paul and I agree with your assessment. My question was, more or less, rhetorical although I am interested in opinions on the subject.

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Posted By: Joann

OK Steve. I think I just had this huge logic collision in my brain. It may have broken something.

Your item 2 says something properly categorized is always ok to out - suspect status does not matter.

Your item 3 says something not properly categorized is never ok to out - suspect status does not matter.

Items 2 and 3 together describe the entire universe of auction listings. All items ever listed would be either properly categorized per item 2 and okay to out, or miscategorized per item 3 and not ok to out. All auctions anywhere are either a 2 or a 3.

Therefore, there is no room in the logic for item 1. Whether something is suspect is completely irrelevant. The ok or not ok for outing an auction is driven purely by whether or not it is properly categorized.

And that's why it's the best statement yet of the unwritten rules. We have struggled in the past over suspect or kind of suspect or for sure suspect or almost positive suspect, and that's why it can be so hard to describe the boundaries.

But saying that the issue is resolved by proper categorization is much simpler, and it also gets to what bothers many people about outing auctions - which is the number of people that know about it.

And then Brian further develops the idea by distinguishing between mainstream auction houses versus middle houses down to the boutique kind of auctions.

Howard - my view on not outing miscategorized auctions is based on how hard some people work to find them. I have some searches that I do for some items regularly, but for the most part my finding cards is pretty much lazily browsing through the pre-1930's Singles category.

Others spend a lot of time trying to find miscategorized items, and I think it's unfair for me to get the benefit of their efforts by either following them around via bidder searches or having someone out the auction here. I think that these folks may search days and weeks and only occasionally run across a great miscategorized item. I don't know b/c I don't do it, but I suspect it doesn't happen every day. If 3 or 4 people have worked hard and been patient to find these items, I don't think it's fair for 500 people to catch right up in two seconds because one of them decided to ask a question here.

So! Based on the great definition provided by Steve and nuanced by Brian to give crystal clarity to this issue ... let the bickering over what is and what it not miscategorized begin!

Joann

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Posted By: Matt

I disagree with rule #3 - if something is suspect, I am interested in knowing about it, even if it is miscategorized. I am betting that the added cost of the item given the extra exposure will NOT outweigh the amount I can be scammed by a fraudulent listing. I would rather sometimes pay more for an authentic item then sometimes get scammed by a seller.

In addition to my own reasoning above, I believe it would be better for the industry as a whole to discuss suspect auctions, even at the expense of raising the prices on some valid items.

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Posted By: Joel

Do people really search by catagory on eBay? When I search say for a Ryan rookie card I just go to search and type in '1968 ryan'. that's going to pull all of them up regardless of what catagory they are in.

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Posted By: Matt

Joel - many of us monitor different ebay categories for 'deals' - we're not looking for something specific enough that we can type in exactly what it is.

This gets into what I discuss with my wife is the difference between men and women's shopping habits.
Men go to the store because they need something and they go and buy it. I call this "normal shopping."
Women go to the store because maybe there will be a deal on something that they had no idea even existed before they got to the store. I call this "backwards shopping."

While I would certainly be excited if a search for: "cheap authentic expensive card being sold for way less then market value" produced results, as of yet, ebay has failed me.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...backward shop for baseball cards, but it only takes two people to find something on ebay and bid on it to make the "deal" a "not a deal".

I found some really rare cards once that were horribly identified. They wound up selling for over $10,000 when I thought I might snag them for $2,000 or so.

Learned my lesson -- don't waste my time trying to win the ebay lottery.

I'm sure there are occasional bargains, but not of the really great stuff. The ebay trolls get to the really great baseball card stuff even if it is listed in antique broze lamps, refurbished.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Visit http://www.t206collector.com for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more...

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Posted By: Fred C

I'm in agreement with most in that I wouldn't want to see an auction outed that is for an item that is poorly listed in the wrong category. I don't think "outing" an auction from the Pre-1930 category is really "outing" an auction. Also, as mentioned, sometimes a poorly listed item doesn't get purchased for a good price because two very interested parties found it. Sometimes you might get a bargain and sometimes you don't.

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Posted By: Red

What percentage of "outed" auctions are simply the seller, consignor, or accomplice devising a creative way to drum up interest in a particular item?

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Posted By: Steve Murray

7%

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Posted By: Matt

Red - I think that's why there's opposition to outing an auction unless it's because there is something fishy going in, in which case it would be quite a risk for a seller to out their own itme by saying it looks counterfit. To get back on point, I'm interested in discussion of Steve's rule #3 which I disagreed with above on the grounds I think it's better for the industry if we always out questionable items.
Thoughts?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Steve, I'm not sure if 7% is correct. I calc'd it out to about 6.72%. Can you please do the math again? Perhaps you missed an auction or two.

Part of this hobby is bargain hunting. These days the bargains are few and far between. Getting a bargain bone thrown your way is kind of fun. Having some mongrel mutt tell the pack about it and have the bone taken away isn't fun.

This post was in no way (shape or form) intended to disrespect, slander or dehumanize the mongrel mutt community within the VBC. If you were offended I truly and humbly apoplogize in advance and wish to state that my attorney has informed me that this post most likely will not result in a lawsuit but in this litigious society that I anything goes so I shouldn't assume anything - kind of like assuming that a card in a miscategorized auction is going to be real....

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

My opinion:

(1) If you want to talk on this forum about an item in a current eBay auction or offered by an auction house, whether you are concerned about the item's authenticity, or want to discuss something else about the item or the seller or the auction, you should feel free to do so. Laissez faire, is my attitude (pardon my French). Obviously there would have to be some limits on this (no slander, for example).

(2) It is ridiculous for anyone to try to capitalize on their 'ingenuity' in finding a hidden gem that some mis-informed seller happened to put in the wrong eBay category, by trying to prevent anyone else from making the existence of that auction known. I don't see what difference it makes whether the item is categorized properly or not. Any item offered for auction or for sale on the internet is in the public domain, and I frankly think it is selfish to try to keep an item you are interested in a 'secret'. Besides, generally speaking, the more publicity about baseball cards for sale there is, the more interest there will be in the cards, the higher will be the prices realized, and that is good for the hobby as a whole.

(3) If I was myself auctioning an item on eBay, or had consigned one to an auction house, I would not be happy if people on this forum, who might or might not know what they are talking about, started speculating that the item might be fake or trimmed or something bad like that. But that's the way it goes. As others have said, it is better for the industry if these things are out in the open. On the other hand, as a seller I guess I would be happy if people had positive things to say about my item, which might increase the number of potential bidders.

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Posted By: Fred C

A few years ago I'd find items improperly categorized. In one instance it was misplaced to the point where I'm sure most people would have missed the auction. I was trying to be a nice person and I told the seller what the item was worth. The seller asked where to place the item. I gave them good directions. The item sold for a few thousand. I never got a thanks from the seller so after that I stopped telling people about their potential ending bid prices. I figured the heck with it.

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Posted By: Dave S

Categorized correctly, categorized incorrectly...all that accomplishes are more gray areas to differ and argue...

Just my opinion..I do not think any live auction should ever be outed. Obvious fakes and re-prints are different, they should. But authentic, save the discussion till the auction ends.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Dave S -- I'm just curious, could you explain exactly why you think a live auction should not be outed? Is it to protect buyers or sellers or what? Maybe I'm missing something.

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Posted By: Dave S

Eric--To protect those bidders who are actively interested in buying that card. As someone stated earlier, outing that item is going to increase it's exposure tremendously. And bids from those who may never have seen it...
Let me ask you...if you are seriously interested in a card that appears to be well below what you're willing to pay...would you like to see it outed?
If that's the case...as we are all vintage collectors on here, should every auction that appears to be undervalued be outed...to help other collectors?

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Some folks want to have rules about auctions in progress to inject a bit of hide and seek into the matter.

Auctions aren't games.


I think all auctions, eBay, mail, auction houses... all auctions can be fairly discussed. Most folks here don't agree with that. I think they don't agree for selfish reasons. And I don't understand how they distinguish between talking about a lot in one of Barry Sloate's auctions and talking about a lot on eBay. Or I maybe I do understand it, it is their desire to interject a bit of hide and seek into it, to their benefit.

I do think that a pending private transaction should not be discussed.



So, to the extent the majority of this board preceive that there are rules about such, Frank B, I think those rules are misguided, and would not fault you for transgressing them.

Frank W.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Dave -- okay, thanks, that's what I figured was the reasoning, I just wanted to check. I can certainly understand that sentiment, however my feeling is that all you are doing by limiting the exposure of a public auction is rewarding people who spend a lot of time browsing eBay and/or are good at doing searches. And yes, I would feel that way even about something that I myself was interested in, that I hoped I would get at a good price. If nobody else sees it, and that's how I win, okay fine I got lucky, but I get no particular satisfaction out of that.

On the other hand, and you raise a very good question, I wouldn't think that members of this forum should systematically look for good deals out there and broadcast them for everyone here to try to take advantage of. I guess that would be a bit too much interference in the fair operation of the market. Hard to know where to draw the line there. (Besides, most auctions aren't resolved until the last minute anyhow, so identifying an item that is likely to sell below market is virtually impossible to do.)

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Posted By: Matt

"On the other hand, and you raise a very good question, I wouldn't think that members of this forum should systematically look for good deals out there and broadcast them for everyone here to try to take advantage of. I guess that would be a bit too much interference in the fair operation of the market. Hard to know where to draw the line there."

I don't think the line is difficult to draw - if the intention of the "outer" is out of concern that the listing is questionable, then the intention is not to to interfere with fair market operation. Such "outings" should not only be accepted, but encouraged as they benefit us all.

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Posted By: Frank B

Thanks for all the replies both in this thread and off board.
The advice to run it privately by a few members was good and
that's what I'll be doing going forward.

For the record, of the few cards I had questions about,
none would have fallen in the category of "obvious hidden gem".
They were either questionably authentic or possibly
altered. I wanted to ask the opinion of those more knowledgeable
than myself before getting involved with the item.

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Posted By: Dave S

Hypothetical question?
We have a seller that doesn't normally sell vintage cards. Let's assume he has a T206 with a Drum back...but not knowing what he has..lists the card as "T206 John Doe". Being that "John Doe" is not a HOF'er and being only a common, alot of collectors may not see the card. And only those that do will see it has a Drum back.
So the majority here think this should be outed?

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Matt -- okay, agreed. But are you opposed to discussing (and in the process revealing) a live auction where there is no question about the authenticity of the card, and where the seller has an impeccable reputation, just to limit the number of bidders who know about it?

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Let me see... the seller would get more for his card. He'd be in favor of it.

If bunches of folks bid high who had overlooked it, and one of them one, they'd all be in favor of it, especially the one who won.

And the guy who "found" it and hoped it stayed hidden, happy with himself for having won a game of hide and seek, only to be outed, he'd be ticked.


Yes. I'd be in favor of outing it.

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Posted By: Fred C

And people wonder why bidders try to get a seller to end an auction early.

I for one don't care either way. I've been on the good end of having an auction ended early because of an agreement with the seller and I've also been a bidder on an item that was pulled before the auction ended.

The following two scenarios are similar in that there are two sides to each situation:

1) Outing an auction of a poorly listed item.

2) Having an auction end early because the seller and a buyer came to an agreement on price before the auction ended.

This isn't hijacking the thread, this is still in line with "policy on auctions in progress?"

Do we want to rehash the second subject also. This first one's been pounded over and over again so we might as well beat the second subject to death (as we have in the past).

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

I would think that the central purpose of this forum is to discuss general questions related to vintage baseball cards, not to fuel the commercial marketplace, so I wouldn't think you would want to bring up the Drum back card in Dave's example just to alert potential buyers that one is for sale, particularly in this case because you know it might be tricky to find. But if you had some question about the card -- say you had never seen that front/back combination before and wondered about the history behind it -- I don't see why you couldn't mention that particular card, even while the auction was live. But then again, if you wanted to win the card, I can see why you would wait until the auction was over to bring it up.

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Posted By: barrysloate

You can take this a step further and argue that even bringing up an auction that just ended can cause problems. Here's an example:

An auction concludes and a card worth $5000 sells for $1200 because it was miscategorized. Somebody puts it on the board an hour after it closes expressing his amazement that it sold so cheaply. Now that everyone knows about it, some unscrupulous person contacts the seller and offers him twice the selling price for it. It's going to get sticky.

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Posted By: Matt

Eric- I'm not opposed to what you suggest - I was arguing for less strict rules about "outing" against what Steve proposed. Seeing as how there are some who oppose ANY outing, I was trying to suggest a compromise position that we could all agree on.

Barry - I think that's VERY different because now you're assuming someone will do something illegal; up until now we've been playing inside the law. My understanding is that an auction sale is a binding agreement on both parties; a seller backing out afterwards is illegal.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The sales are binding but not everybody is ethical. And if I got a great deal on ebay and saw it discussed on the board before I received it, I probably wouldn't be happy.

Now that doesn't mean it's wrong for someone to bring it up after it ends, just that it could create complications.

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Posted By: Larry

I think all auctions, live or closed, should be open for discussion at any given time.

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Posted By: Joann

I still think that the way Steve M and Brian put it is best, in terms of whether something is miscategorized or not.

And Steve M and Leon hit the target in characterizing this as "preferred policy" and "sentiment of the board". The fact that there is disagreement and that Leon does not want to make it a hard and fast rule leaves room for someone to manuever and out a miscategorized auction in what they feel are extreme circumstances.

Just off the top of my head, some things that might jump out as extreme circumstances would be a very expensive card about which you know negative history that is not obvious in the auction, and/or a very rare card about which general appearance issues are not as well-known, and/or for which bidding has already reached levels that indicate most people are missing the negative feature, and/or some bidders are known to be members of this board.

And as to the "intent" of the person outing the auction, I think that has to go hand in hand with the expertise of that person. If someone that is not that experienced wants to start throwing everything he or she sees as suspicious on the board to warn others it just gets messy.

First, that person is likely to be wrong as often as right, and so now has outed an auction for no reason. Second, most of the "warnees" may have more experience and didn't need the warning. Again, auction outed for no reason. I just don't think the board has asked for or needs a warning system for the many and endless mainstream ebay scams - trimmed, reprint, etc.

Pointing these out is VERY helpful to newer collectors. However, this lesson can be easily passed on AFTER the auction has ended, and with great value.

Bottom line - the chances that someone here is going to actually avoid bidding on a pretty mainstream scam because they saw a post here and otherwise would have bid are pretty slim.

Now the exotic scams? Extreme cases that require very specific knowledge or experience? That's different. (The best example of this that I can think of is whoever first outed that 4BH Frankenstein card awhile ago - now THAT one may have sucked in some very very experienced collectors.)

So .. when in doubt don't out. hahaha. At least for something that is miscategorized or in a less mainstream auction.

Joann

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Posted By: Matt

JoAnn - your suggestion of explaining it to people after the auction is over misses the point of the outing in the first place, which is to stop people from getting scammed. Once the auction is over it's too late.

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Posted By: Joann

Yes - I agree. But that's why I specifically added the argument that outing the routine reprints and alterations probably does very little by way of actually saving someone from accidentally bidding on these.

I could be way off here, but I don't think so. I think that most people on this board would not be taken in by these kinds of vanilla scams. Those that would be taken in, especially on ebay, are very unlikely to

a) read this board at all

b) read this board regularly or

c) read this board on the specific few days preceeding the bid they are about to make so as to see the thread to warn them off it and thereby prevent being taken.

To me, the likelihood that outing the routine stuff will actually prevent a bid is so low that it does not justify outing an auction, and especially not a miscategorized auction. There are so, so many ebay bidders that bid on these cards and don't read this board.

When I first started reading this board, I learned tons and tons and tons from people that were willing to take the time to link to auctions or scans for reprints and alterations that I now consider mainstream. But at that time they were new to me and it was very helpful to see the scans and the commentaries.

But never, or very rarely, on live auctions. These were presented as the helps and even tutorials that they actually were. People waited until the auctions were over - on purpose or just didn't get to it until then, I don't know - but generally they were already done.

I got a great education from this board, and it came from thoughtful people posting scans and then commentary about what was wrong with the card. It did not come from people posting a link and one-liner purporting to protect me.

So I think there really is good value to posting after the fact as to reprints and alterations.

Joann

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Posted By: Matt

JoAnn - I don't think there will be a rush of people admitting they can't recognize "obvious" reprints for fear of embarassment. I know when I first joined, the outing of questionable listings/reprints helped me and so I try and return the favor to others.

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Posted By: Joann

Actually Matt, you have got me thinking about something with this discussion.

I guess it is a lot rarer to see the kinds of very basic info on scams and reprints on the board. True, we have the great area above about alterations, and some of it is just simply universal. Classic. David's work on the print methods comes to mind. I still have my copy from 8 or so years ago.

But the sort of ongoing little posts and threads about the real basics - like where the word reprint appears on given reprint sets, and how often there is paper loss or other damage to this area - don't happen as often.

Or things like being able to look at a reprint and see that the corners were clipped before rounding. Anyone else remember those? I had a scan on my last computer that DIED with the scan in it, that showed this great close-up of bat's ears, that I got off of either the old Fullcount board or the early days of this board. I think it was Fullcount.

I guess I have to think about that. Believe me, I am far from the best person to try to post about these things. I am neither the most knowledgable or the most computer-savvy (in terms of being able to magnify and hilite problems areas of scans) so I might not be the right person.

But I am going to make it a point to look for opportunities to link an auction after the fact and point out a few things. Even if we are all comfortable with the mainstream stuff, that doesn't mean all readers and members are.

I don't really browse the pre-30's category like I used to, but when I do and run across a scam auction I am going to make it a point to put it on my watch list and maybe try to throw something together after the auction ends.

Good points Matt. I hadn't really noticed that the really, really basic stuff doesn't get brought up much anymore until we had this conversation.

Sorry for the thread hijack. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

J

ETA - Matt posted while I was typing this, so I'll reiterate that these are all very laudable goals, and it is nice to see someone that wants to be helpful. But I just really strongly believe that it's not worth outing a miscategorized auction if you are not rock-solid, 100% sure. 100%. If you are going to potentially cost someone thousands of dollars, I think it's the least one can ask is that you be very, very sure you are actually giving a valid warning and not just throwing something out as a maybe.

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Posted By: Matt

JoAnn - as always a pleasure to discuss with you.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

I am having a great deal of trouble following these last bits, I'm not sure why. But I'm glad this conversation is continuing. It is an interesting discussion, that I don't think should be taken off-line; there does need to be a consensus and a policy on this so posters will know what they should or should not do.

Regarding mis-categorized items: it occurred to me that the sentiment among board regulars for not outing these auctions may be based on a desire not so much to protect the lucky bastards who 'find' these items, but to prevent this board from being used as a public clearinghouse for identifying items that everyone can go pounce on to try to get a good deal, since a large fraction of the collecting public probably won't see them. ("Hey, here's a hot opportunity, this moron listed his T206 cards in the antiques section.") If the latter is the case, i.e. if posting such information about buying opportunities is seen as counter to the central purpose and the spirit of the forum, I think that does make some sense.

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Posted By: leon

I need about an hour to read all of the well thought out and friendly debates above....but this is exactly the reason there will never be a formal policy about outing auctions. It's too split. There are many reasons why there shouldn't be a "rule" against it. One thing I AM IN FAVOR of is outing a bad auction. Recently, I outed the Gypsy Queen auction that said "Large" on the PSA holder and in the description (If I remember correctly). I did it because it wasn't a large one and I didn't want anyone to bid on it as a large one. I am in favor of outing auctions like that but you better have your ducks in a row...On that occasion I did. I did ask another board member if I should out it, before I did it, and he agreed that I should ....so I did...best regards

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Posted By: Joann

Actually, Matt, I have these two really great scans of 33 Goudeys (I think a Ruth and maybe a Gehrig) that show perfectly what it looks like when someone clips corners and then tries to round them.

I saved them because it was the first time I had actually seen one on my own without having it pointed out. I later posted them to this board and was very proud of myself for it. And the only reason I was able to see them was because the idiot seller was too lazy to clip them one at a time. He stacked the two and clipped them together so that the clips were almost identical. Somehow I saw the two different auctions and matched up the clips, and I thought I was allllll that! hahahaha. I am cracking myself up with this.

As soon as the dust settles from Christmas I might dig them up and throw together a thread of some kind.

You are very right. We all get a lot from this board, and I have kind of missed this opportunity to give back or keep the tradition of help going.

Nice call on the returning the favor thing.

J

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Posted By: Matt

JoAnn - "I just really strongly believe that it's not worth outing a miscategorized auction if you are not rock-solid, 100% sure. 100%. If you are going to potentially cost someone thousands of dollars, I think it's the least one can ask is that you be very, very sure you are actually giving a valid warning and not just throwing something out as a maybe."

2 points:
1) When you say "costing someone thousands of dollars" are you talking about the seller or the buyer? If it's the seller, I think posting it on the board for open discussion will bring the truth to light and if there is nothing wrong with the listing, it may actually benefit the seller (isn't that the exact argument against outing?). If you are referring to the buyer, I don't think you can appropriately categorize that as costing the buyer thousands of dollars - no one is making the buyer spend any more then he choses to. It may end up at a higher price then it would have otherwise, but spinning it as taking money out of his pocket is innacurate.

2) Sometimes it's exactly that non 100% rock solid certainty that needs to be discussed - i.e. "does the corner clipping on this auction look fishy to anyone else." I have often taken such discussions offline, but in doing so, anyone else who has the same question loses out on the dialog.

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Posted By: howard

I agree with Frank and Eric 100%. That's what I was getting at when I originally posted early in this thread. Not outing auctions does not "protect" anybody. Any buyer savvy enough to troll for miscategorized cards doesn't need protection. If anything it is the seller he seeks out that needs protection.

I suggest that it be fair game to out any auction.

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Posted By: Randy Trierweiler

If any & all auctions were allowed to be "outed" for any reason, how long do you think it would take for the board to turn into a "check out this auction" board? People we've never heard about would be asking questions about this auction or that auction, when in reality they are outing the auctions for their friends intentionally.

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Posted By: leon

That is one issue that I raise both eyebrows about whenever I see something outed. I don't expect your concern to ever be a major problem as it's one of my/our biggest concerns.. regards