So, what's an autograph collector to do? LONG POST AHEAD

[keithsky]

I always worry why so many people are obsessed with 3rd party companies. If there is ever a scandle with one of these companies and they go belly up all the certs from that company will be worth less than toilet paper. Look at all the sports companies and auction houses that you thought they were to big to fail and have failed like Mastro, GAI, Fleer to name a few. I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket like some guys all they want is PSA stuff cause they are the biggest and bring in the most money on an item but if they would ever fail your stuff is worth nothing near what it would have been with there cert. And with there wording of "in our opinion" they don't have to be liable for anything. Seems like a pretty good gig to not be responsible for anything and get paid for it. Kind of like predicting the weather to say 50% chance of rain 50% chance of sun. (no disrespect to any weather guys out there). I guess everyone spends there money how they want and to each his own. I can do without 3rd party companies but I do have items with there certs that came with my item I bought. The way things are anymore it's easier to resell with them than without and that is a sad thing. Just my opinion. keith janosky

[mighty bombjack]

HRBAKER-seemes we see things similarly

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

First, as I said before, Morales et. al. are not authenticators. They are shills. Just ignore them. No one here would ever buy a Morales-certed piece, or send an item to him. Case closed. (Please.)

Agreed. I view what they do as outright fraud.

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

That leaves the only two actual "authenticators," PSA and JSA. They make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. BUT...

They hold themselves up as the experts, yet their "expertise" is nowhere near what they claim it to be. And what are they actually selling? They do not, in any way, stand behind their opinions. Empty words, and nothing more. Still, some believe they are the best thing since sliced bread, some believe they're better than nothing, and some (myself included) believe they do more harm than good.

Take your pick, and act accordingly.

You're leaning towards actual advice there, but I feel compelled to ask what advice you would give to a novice collector regarding TPAs. They may have done more harm than good (people have said the same about grading, ebay, etc.), but like those things they are here and not going anywhere for the foreseeable future. Or is there something we could do to make them go somewhere?

Originally Posted by keithsky

I can do without 3rd party companies. Just my opinion. keith janosky

Can you expand on "do without"? Do you simply ignore any cert that an auto has, or only buy autos with no cert?

[HRBAKER]

MB,

To me the issue of the cert is more an issue on the back end as to whether I buy or not. I have many framed pieces hanging on my wall today with cuts/3x5s/GPCs/checks, etc. that have come from Bill Corcoran, Jim Stinson, Kevin Keating, Richard Simon, etc. I wouldn't waste a .10 sending those to someone to look at or opine about. I trust the source.

The issue is going to be when I want to move them. Due to the marketing that these firms have done - they have created a "need" or the "perception of a need" for these items to be papered in order to be real and real liquid.

I have saved all of the documentation from when these items were bought and hopefully that will help.

I do have some items that have been certed, those most typically are trading cards, etc. I submitted those myself.

[travrosty]

just buy the autograph and not the cert, whether the autograph has an abc cert or is not certed at all. It doesnt matter, as an abc cert doesnt make it good, and no cert doesnt make it bad.

I bought a 325 dollar james jeffries boxing signature that i knew was good, it came in an abc autograph slab. I simply busted it out of the slab, and put it in my collection.

someone else parted with the 150 dollars to get it slabbed. I didn't. I bought it for the going rate, and when I sold it later, i sold it for the going rate. You dont need abc to tell you its real, when they have enough trouble figuring it out for themselves.

as far as no one can know for sure if an autograph is 100% real without seeing it signed themselves, that's not true.

but most people buy autographs of the big names for the big bucks way too fast, and then regret it later when abc company couldnt shoot straight and got it wrong, or they don't know for themselves if the autograph is legit but trust the company and the company fails and the 5000 dollars someone put in getting all their autographs "authenticated" is now chalked up to being essentially flushed down the toilet.

Either the autographs you have in your collection are real, or they are not real. An abc cert will never make a fake one real.

As far as what does a new person do? Well, when I wanted a Muhammad Ali autograph for the first time, and I didn't know Ali's autograph, I didnt just buy the first abc certed one that came along. How do I know that they know Ali (I have since found out they don't know much about Ali's signature), well, i just said to myself that there will always be Ali signatures for sale, so I researched his signature intensely, and 4 months later, I bought my first Muhammad Ali signature, which was on an Islamic pamphlet, it was a textbook signature on a medium (pamphlet) that is very rarely forged because forgers like to forge signatures of Ali on an 8 x 10 or a glove because it is potentially worth so much more than on a pamphlet.) I have only seen 1 fake Ali signature on a pamphlet which coincidentally, (or not) has an abc sticker on it.

So I didn't jump in a Ferrari and go 170 miles per hour right out of the bat. I took a big buick, and rolled out of the driveway slowly. Then I slowly bought another, and another, until I was comfortable looking at his signature and knowing I could find a legitimate one, whether or not it had some cert from abc, or xyz that may or may not an accurate opinion backed with no guarantee. so I know the autographs in my collection are legitimate and I don't have to trust "the world experts" (at what I have no idea!)

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

just buy the autograph and not the cert, whether the autograph has an abc cert or is not certed at all. It doesnt matter, as an abc cert doesnt make it good, and no cert doesnt make it bad.

I bought a 325 dollar james jeffries boxing signature that i knew was good, it came in an abc autograph slab. I simply busted it out of the slab, and put it in my collection.

someone else parted with the 150 dollars to get it slabbed. I didn't. I bought it for the going rate, and when I sold it later, i sold it for the going rate. You dont need abc to tell you its real, when they have enough trouble figuring it out for themselves.

as far as no one can know for sure if an autograph is 100% real without seeing it signed themselves, that's not true.

but most people buy autographs of the big names for the big bucks way too fast, and then regret it later when abc company couldnt shoot straight and got it wrong, or they don't know for themselves if the autograph is legit but trust the company and the company fails and the 5000 dollars someone put in getting all their autographs "authenticated" is now chalked up to being essentially flushed down the toilet.

Either the autographs you have in your collection are real, or they are not real. An abc cert will never make a fake one real.

As far as what does a new person do? Well, when I wanted a Muhammad Ali autograph for the first time, and I didn't know Ali's autograph, I didnt just buy the first abc certed one that came along. How do I know that they know Ali (I have since found out they don't know much about Ali's signature), well, i just said to myself that there will always be Ali signatures for sale, so I researched his signature intensely, and 4 months later, I bought my first Muhammad Ali signature, which was on an Islamic pamphlet, it was a textbook signature on a medium (pamphlet) that is very rarely forged because forgers like to forge signatures of Ali on an 8 x 10 or a glove because it is potentially worth so much more than on a pamphlet.) I have only seen 1 fake Ali signature on a pamphlet.

So I didn't jump in a Ferrari and go 170 miles per hour right out of the bat. I took a big buick, and rolled out of the driveway slowly. Then I slowly bought another, and another, until I was comfortable looking at his signature and knowing I could find a legitimate one, whether or not it had some cert from abc, or xyz that may or may not an accurate opinion backed with no guarantee. so I know the autographs in my collection are legitimate and I don't have to trust "the world experts" (at what I have no idea!)

Some pretty good advice there. I concur. +1.153612 (the extra .153612 to account for the extra weight I carry around my middle)

Mike

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

I bought a 325 dollar james jeffries boxing signature that i knew was good, it came in an abc autograph slab. I simply busted it out of the slab, and put it in my collection.

someone else parted with the 150 dollars to get it slabbed. I didn't. I bought it for the going rate, and when I sold it later, i sold it for the going rate. You dont need abc to tell you its real, when they have enough trouble figuring it out for themselves.

As Richard notes below, this isn't true in baseball. It could be true in boxing in general, but if it is, why do you have such a beef with the ABCs? It seems they aren't bothering you, why do you care at all about them? And do you scour Coach's Corner for boxing autos, planning to tear up the cert that they offer if you find one you want and believe to be real?

Originally Posted by travrosty

as far as no one can know for sure if an autograph is 100% real without seeing it signed themselves, that's not true.

We are going to disagree here. No one is right 100% of the time.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

As Richard notes below, this isn't true in baseball. It could be true in boxing in general, but if it is, why do you have such a beef with the ABCs? It seems they aren't bothering you, why do you care at all about them? And do you scour Coach's Corner for boxing autos, planning to tear up the cert that they offer if you find one you want and believe to be real?


We are going to disagree here. No one is right 100% of the time.

I am not sure where you are quoting me from. I have said in another thread that the TPA's are not knowledgable in boxing and that is why Travis has problems with them. The mistakes they have made have been well illustrated by him.
I never defended them in baseball either, though I guess their % is higher in baseball than it is in boxing. But that is faint praise.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I am not sure where you are quoting me from. I have said in another thread that the TPA's are not knowledgable in boxing and that is why Travis has problems with them. The mistakes they have made have been well illustrated by him.
I never defended them in baseball either, though I guess their % is higher in baseball than it is in boxing. But that is faint praise.

My quote of you was that baseball autos with TPA sell for more money (certainly true), which Travis said was not true in the boxing example he gave.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

My quote of you was that baseball autos with TPA sell for more money (certainly true), which Travis said was not true in the boxing example he gave.

They sell for more money partly because the dealers add the expense of the TPA to the price of the item.

[steve B]

I'd sort of qualify as one of those "new" collectors.

I've only collected a handful of autographs, most of them in person.

So far I haven't spent much on any of them.
And I've relied more on the overall item for the ones I bought. If the autographs aren't good, then I'm still not out much. (Like the photo is still worth what I paid, or I can still use the baseball - Like I said I'm way on the low end.)

I look for old items, ones that aren't typical autograph items. And the rest is the situation.
Frank Navin - On a postcard sized photo of Fenway Park. At about the right price for the photo and "signed by some front office guy"
Bob Cousy - On a somewhat beat black and white 8x10 showing him in some sports club jacket. Very faded signature $3 at a local mall show.
Happy Rockefeller- Nelsons wife, On a postcard mailed to a friend while on their honeymoon. From a stamp dealers dollar box. I saw the message mentioning "rocky" and signed "happy" and took a chance on it.

I'm pretty confident in those. The items are right, the way they were sold wasn't exactly pushing the autograph, and in two cases -Navin and Rockefeller a small bit of research made it more likely. The Navin is dated 1934 and the photo pictures a boston v detroit game from 34. The Rockefeller postcard is from the place and within the time of their honeymoon, and sent to someone known to be a friend of hers. I haven't looked much at the Cousy yet.

On the other hand I had a handful of HOF autographs on 3x5 cards. Bought at a card club auction pretty affordably. After having them a few years I realised they just weren't interesting to me, and I'd come to feel less comfortable about the source even though they were all pretty comon. I consigned them to a local auction, and asked if they thought they were good. They thought so, so off they went. I don't miss them at all.

I've also been ofered a few items that would be pretty nice over the last 5years. All with certs, all of the certs shaky at best, and all items ripe for faking. (500 hr litho, another litho, stuff like that) I passed on all of them since I don't really know enough to tell and feel confident in my opinion.

So for new collectors I'd agree with the starting slow and with inexpensive stuff. The mistakes won't be financially painful, and the knowledge will really help later.
On expensive stuff I think as a collector I'd want to learn enough to make my own decision treating the item as if it had no certificate from anyone. But I'd also lean towards tempering that with the presence of a certificate "good" or "bad" or lack of one. Personally I would and have passed on stuff with very shaky certs. And maybe lean a bit towards ones with what for lack of a better term -Better certs.

Problem is that so many people don't want to learn, they just want to own. And own NOW! So there's a lot of room for third parties to offer opinions. It helps dealers sell stuff and opens the hobby to people who wouldn't learn or risk anything without someone elses opinion. Of course it also allows the fraudulent or incompetent to make their profits too. And with big money there's more pressure from sellers and more desire to believe something is real. The stakes are higher,(If some TPA gets it wrong on say a fake sig on an 88 Donruss common it's a lot less damaging than getting it wrong on a Ruth ball)
With pressures of time and insistence mistakes get made. Maybe easier by some than others, maybe deliberately by some. What hurts us all, even the card guys is that to some degree we'll never know which scenario happened. And that hurts the credibility of everything.

I learn a bit from even the bickering -up to a point.

I think a major change in the way TPAs do things would help a lot. Make a cert hard enough to get that it means something. Take the time to actually get it right. In the case of my 3x5s that was about two minutes for the auctioneer. Expensive and/or tougher stuff should take longer. And the result would break down to tiers "sure enough that I'd actually guarantee it" " fairly sure" " not sure enough to make an opinion" " fairly sure it's fake" and "positive it's fake" And give detailed reasons on the cert. And hardly ever use the "sure enough I'd guarantee it" category.
Of course, that will never happen. It's not simple enough for most buyers who want good/bad, and many dealers would never go for it. The only way it could ever work is if someone with enough experience started doing it and was succesful. And anyone with that sort of ability is probably making more as a dealer.

Steve B

Steve B