P.H. Mayo & Brother Tobacco Co. Patsy Cahill

[RCMcKenzie]

Here is a P. H. Mayo & Brother Tobacco Co. cabinet card of Patsy Cahill. The photo is identical to 61-2 per the OJ book.

The seller had misidentified this as an old baseball photo of Tug Arundel. The seller also sold a similar type card of a different player in a different auction that had Gypsy Queen advertising. That card was larger on a large cardboard mount, but had the same look and font as the card I have. I believe this Cahill was removed from the mount and had the Goodwin written part trimmed away from the bottom.

REA had something similar in 2005 and proposed that these were produced post 1902.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2005/122.html

Does anyone else have one like this or has anything new surfaced since 2005?

phmayocahillfront197.jpgphmayocahillback198.jpg

[oldjudge]

Rob-I believe that they are not period

[RCMcKenzie]

Jay,

In 2005, REA was suggesting maybe 1902-1920, based upon the return address on the envelope from the studio that may have re-issued the photos.

Do you believe these are in that time frame, or that they are all later issues, or that the ones on ebay, including the one I purchased, are later than the REA one.

I'm not into it for very much money and it would not be the first reproduction that I've bought on ebay. The photo does not show pixels under a magnifying glass.

[autograf]

The two dimensional scan makes the paper look like an albumen type paper......which would be a good sign. Like Jay, I think all of those, including some of those Old Judge ones, were made well into the 20th century. With all of the things that have been done to create fake memorabilia that fooled even the most astute collectors, auction houses, etc, I would be very suspect of them as I think someone with the right knowledge could create something if they had the right negatives, paper and chemicals. I could be WAY off base but my skepticism level is high......

[RCMcKenzie]

Tom,

Thanks for the reply.

Here is the link to the auction that had the Gypsy Queen example...

www.ebay.com/itm/221234334125


It was also of a non-star Indy player, but I did not bid because I had already won the one the day before, and did not want to double down if they turned out to be not legit.

[oldjudge]

Rob--I couldn't tell without looking at it in person, and even then it would just be a guess. The Old Judge ones could have been made as early as the 1890s, or possibly a little later. I don't think they were made to deceive. I think they were produced to display the images on the glass plate negatives which otherwise were not readily viewable.

[RCMcKenzie]

Jay, thanks for the help/opinions on this card.

I will just file this one away with the other type card stuff. My guess is circa 1910-1920.

[timn1]

From a thread only a month ago -- amazing! And the player has been identified. Thanks much to all!

I have read the Lifson threads about these pieces, but again I'm not sure what the basis of the dating was -- does anyone remember it offhand?

The reason I ask is that the frame backing (posted again below) has the address 78 Pearl St., which is where Albany city directories list the Meyrowitz Bros. during the 1880s. (This is all from Google so you can check it yourself.) But Later Google entries (post-1900) seem to show them at 68 Pearl St. So there's perhaps some evidence that the piece (mine, anyway, if not the cabinet) might have been produced pre-1900.

[timn1]

I should have said that my piece measures about 1 5/8 by 2 3/8 (frame is 3 7/8 x 5) so it isn't exactly the same format as the cabinet-sized photos recently sold on ebay.

[timn1]

"While most would assume this photo dates from 1888, our research suggests that this print does not date to the nineteenth century, but was in fact made after 1900. Wendell Photographic Art Studios was in business at the address on the envelope starting in 1902, through the late teens."

This is Lifson's copy on the auction lot from 2005.
http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2005/122.html

His dating of 1902 or after seems mostly to be based on the record of that particular photo studio's business address. So I think I should try to do more research on the address 78 Pearl St. for Meyrowitz Bros.

Right now it appears that is their 1880s address, which might make this particular piece a late-80s vintage (since the photo is an Old Judge pose), even if other cabinet-sized prints were made later--

Thanks for tolerating my rather blundering efforts here--

Tim

[1880nonsports]

about 10 years ago (large one). The most bothersome thing about these are the different tobacco brands previously un-associated with such an item. The paper and images are real - the ? is about when/why the photographs were taken and when the printing took place (also why the banner was added for example with Mayo's if they weren't for production).
I had a very similar grouping of the small sized images I bought at the White Plains show around 1996 wrapped inside a black folding envelope like container - which I sold to Tery Knouse Sr.. They were all OJ type poses. The neat part were some notations on the packet seemingly related to the production. They were small like the one from the OP but can't remember much else about it (CRS/TMS).

[smokelessjoe]

Not sure if this helps or not, but here is an adv. for Meyrowitz Brothers.... From the Albany NY Evening Journal Dated June 23rd 1885. Appears to have the same address that is on the back of Tims frame.

[smokelessjoe]

Here is another one.... 1884 - Any idea what photographic outfits are? Clothes???

[sb1]

Photographic outfits would have been lens for the early day cameras.

[timn1]

Yeh, all the stuff you needed to outfit yourself as an amateur photographer -- your kit.

So far all the refs I've seen to Meyrowitz at 78 N Pearl have been from the 1880s (earliest 1880, latest 1889). There are plenty of references to 68 N Pearl extending into the 1920s. Still hoping to nail down when they moved to 68, because if that was soon after 1890, that would suggest the photo was made and framed soon after it was taken, and the piece is an Old-Judge era piece, not a 20th-c throwback.

Tim

[smokelessjoe]

Ok, here are a couple more ads.... These have the 68 Pearl address - the first one (cameras) is from 1895 and the second (thermometers) is 1899....

[timn1]

So we can pinpoint the shift of address (and presumably my frame) to between 1889 and 1895 -- nice!

[smokelessjoe]

I found another adv. (68 N Pearl St.) for 1893.... I think that is the earliest I have seen so far.