Our Hobby's biggest mysteries...

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Posted By: Jason

So, with all of the collective research that's been done surrounding the various aspects of card collecting and the vast number of issues, what are the biggest mysteries or otherwise unexplained questions that still nag at our hobby?

What are the biggest puzzles still in front of us?

To get us started, by way of example, there's:
-The PSA 8 Wagner's lineage, supposed alteration, etc.???
-The reasons behind single or relatively few finds that can account for our entire knowledge of an issue, such as Tango Eggs, or Pirate backs???


What else is bugging the collective "us"???

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Posted By: Mark T

I learned all i know from Scott B. and a few google searches.

Other than the few guesses we have, not much is known why only a handful of players are on Oval frames and square frames.

Scott i think believes all players have a connection to Boston where the Cigs were made.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

what did a pack of G & B chewing gum look like?

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Posted By: peter chao

The manner in which the T206 Cobb with Cobb backs were distributed.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Jay

Richard--The pack was about four inches long and two inches wide with a celophane wrapper over it. The gum was in little pillow shaped candy coated pieces and there were twelve to a box. Oh, sorry--that's chiclets. Forget it.

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Posted By: Jay

Old Judge Mysteries:

1-Why was no card of Cap Anson issued in 1886/1887?

2-Why are California League cards so rare?

3-What caused the poor photographic quality on most 1890 cards?

4-Why were California League cards issued for three of the four teams in the California League(San Francisco, Oakland and Sacramento) but not for prior year league champion Stockton?

5-Why were Player's League cards issued for four of the teams in the Player's League (N.Y., Boston, Philadelphia and Chicago) but not for the other four teams?

6-Why do some players have as many as 17 different poses and others have as few as one?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Richard- of all the possible mysteries to solve, I don't think that's the one racking the collective hobby's brains.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- I'll tackle # 3.

Because all the 1890 poses are recycled, they probably used old worn out negatives to develop the pictures.

The others truly are a mystery.

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Posted By: Ed McCollum

Why anyone, besides me, wants little pieces of cardboard with pictures of dead guys on them? The only thing everyone else is doing is driving up the price for themselves and I as I continue my quest for total world domination of owning every card ever produced! WhaaaHaaaaaHaaaaaHaaaaaa!?!?!

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Posted By: Eric B

When are we ever going to find out how many known different Old Judge poses currently exist?

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Posted By: barrysloate

One of the mysteries that puzzles me is why a set such as Four Base Hits is so rare. They were clearly issued to be distributed in some way to the general public, yet only one or two examples of each player survive, and in some cases none do. Therefore, what kind of distribution did the cards have back in 1887?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here are a few to ponder.....

1....Why wasn't Yale's Walter Camp (Father of Modern day FB) in the N162 set ?
Yale's Captain Henry Beecher was.

2....Why wasn't Walter Johnson in the E90-1 set ?

3....Why was the T206 Plank....yanked ?
Could there have been a mutual agreement between ATC and Am Caramel....Johnson for Plank ? ?

4....What happened to all the other Red Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back cards ?
No printer ever prints just 12 cards ! !

5....Why wasn't Gehrig and/or Ruth in the 1934-36 Diamond Star set ?

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Matt

Ted - in the CJ thread it was said that 300 Million T206s were originally printed. That's 600,000 per card on average - of which what percentage remain - 1%? .5$? So if we know of 12 Cobbs, applying the same percentages, they must have printed a few thousand at least.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

The longer I am on this board, the less convinced I am that the Cobb with Cobb back is a T206. Even if it is, I don't think you can extrapolate T206 production figures to this particular card's print run.

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Posted By: Jay

Barry--Many 1886/1887 poses were reused in later years and there is not a similar problem with clarity.

Eric--There are currently 2467 different Old Judge poses known representing 520 different players.

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Posted By: Joe D.

but I always wanted to know:
what trophy is Hal Chase holding?

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Posted By: JimB

Why is the N172 Anson in uniform so rare? Why are there only two poses (and essentially only one) of Anson when he was one of the top players of his day and there are upwards of 17 of others?
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- another interesting aspect regarding the Anson in uniform, and perhaps Jay has a theory about this, is if you take a loupe to the lower left side of the card, just to the left of the name ANSON, you can see the word COPY printed into the negative. Now it may stand for copyright, but why does this appear at all?

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Posted By: Richard Masson

are you sure there aren't 2468?

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Posted By: dstudeba

Joe - I think it was a loving cup given to him by his teamates after returning from a suspension. Below is a report about the game I believe it is from.

HAL CHASE IN GAME; YANKEES TRIUMPH First Baseman Presented with Silver Loving Cup by Teammates. LONG AND RAGGED CONTEST Both New York and Philadelphia Make Many Costly Errors -- Athletics Employ Four Pitchers. The Yankees signalized the return of Hal Chase to the game yesterday at the American League Park by taking Connie Mack's Philadelphia Athletics into camp by the score of 9 to 6. It was an old-fashioned game, in which errors were almost as numerous as runs and hits. The crowd of nearly 10,000 fans gave Hal Chase a hilarious welcome, and he also received a magnificent silver loving cup from his teammates, the presentation being made by Elberfeld.

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Posted By: Matt

"a hilarious welcome"

Did they tell knock knock jokes?

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Ah yes, glad to see a little OJ discussion. As usual Jay asked some great questions. To add to the list with a "Detroit bias" influence . . .

Why no Baldwin, Bennett, Getzien, & White for the initial 1887 '0' numbered cards? Baldwin lead the league in just about every pitching catagory the previous year, Bennett was considered by many to be the League's best catcher, Getzien was also coming off a solid year (30-11 W-L), and Deacon White was highly respected as a very accomplished player nearing the end of his career. Detroit was short changed several key players in '87. All other National League teams had better representation. I intend to figure out why in good time.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Jay

Barry--The most interesting thing about the Anson in Uniform is that if you put the card on a turntable and you rotate the platter counterclockwise at just the right speed you can hear the words; "Paul is dead."

Richard--You are right--I forgot to include the new Chinese discovery.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Perhaps on the day the photos were taken for the Old Judge cards Anson was impatient and didn't want to sit for more than one or two photos? Maybe he had a dental appointment?

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Posted By: leon

Agree with Richard

1. What does a G and B gum container look like?

2. What would a Four Base Hits pack, or case/carton, look like? (not that they necessarily would have come in it)

3. Why are T231's so scarce and why can't I find a reference to Fans Cigarettes anywhere?

4. What did a Standard Caramel package look like?

5. What did a Philadelphia Caramel package look like and what were the differences for E95/E96 product/packaging?

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

My mysteries:

1) How were W502s distributed, and were the blank-backed W502s actually a part of a different set?

2) Who was Henry Johnson, and is it even possible to build a complete set of Henry Johnson Confectioners-backed E121s?

3) Why did Goudey buy National Chicle's assets but not really use them?

4) Why were 1938 Goudeys reprinted twice (with and without cartoons), and why do the backs of the second series allude to another 24 cards? Were the "missing" 24 cards ever designed, and who were the subjects?

5) Why do most of the 1938 Goudey high number Joe Vosmiks have a pronounced tilt?

6) What do the pencil markings on the back of E121 Herpos signify?

-Al

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Posted By: JimB

What is the relationship between sets which share some poses like E93 Standard Caramel and E98 Anonymous?
Was the E97 a follow-up to E93, much like E95 and E96? I ask this because of the similar appearance, the lack of repeated players or images, and the fact that uncut sheets of E93 and E97 were found together in a recent find.
JimB

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Posted By: Paul S

Mystery: If the richest 5% of Americans own 90% of the country's wealth, why must they also own 90% of the best cards?

Solved: They are the only ones who can afford them!

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

Al,

#6) I believe the markings on the back of the e121 Herpo's were prices added by a seller. The commons tend to be $1 and the stars are $5 and up. Maybe Jeff can let us know what's on the back of the Cobb, likely the highest priced card aside from the Ruth.

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Posted By: John S

Were Colgan's "proofs" actually issued by Colgan's?

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Posted By: Paul

Does a W600 Branch Rickey exist? Why would anyone have ordered a picture of this third-string rookie catcher from the Sporting Life company?

Who in their right mind would have ordered an N173 cabinet of an unknown rookie named Delahanty from Old Judge?

Why isn't Jesse Burkett in E107? Or the Allegheney set? Or the Mayo set? And why is his W600 so rare?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"....the presentation being made by Elberfeld." Interesting. The one guy on the Yankees that Chase hated the most.

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Posted By: Ken W.

Why is there only one card of Josh Gibson - and that was issued after he had died?

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Posted By: Marc

Why do most T205 backs state that there are 400 designs when in fact there are only slightly over 200? Was a second series planned and never completed? If so, why not designate series as T206 backs did? Why instead move on to the T207 set which the vast majority feels was a tremendous step down as far as player selection and artistic quality? Would it not have made more sense to finish the T205 set which by most accounts seems to have been relatively popular? Are there even any proofs as clearly at least 400 subjects were planned? There are quite a lot of top level stars and personalities...Crawford, Keeler, Cole, Donlin, Jackson, Plank, Lajoie, Waddell, Wagner, Wood, etc...that were obviously not represented in the first release. So a second series seems to be a no-brainer.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Bruce:

I've heard the theory that the pencil markings were from a seller. I've also heard a theory that they were supposed to be coupons of some sort for the store. I think your theory is more likely, although if the seller assigned values up to $5 for a Ruth or a Cobb (I have Schalk and Maranville, and both are $2), I would say it had to have been done within the last 20-30 years or so.

I'd obviously also like to know why there is only one set. They're printed on the front and the back. Seems like an awful lot of trouble to print one set of sheets and cut them down, if they never made more than that one set.

It's a mystery. I like trying to solve mysteries. I'm hoping to meet Velma and Daphne soon.

-Al

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Posted By: Mike

Why wasn't there a...

- 1911 T-205 Napoleon Lajoie?
- (Right there with you Ted on the 1935 DS Ruth and Gehrig) but also no 1940
Play Ball for them either? And where's Ty Cobb with the rest of the
greats in the set?
- Bob Feller and Lefty Grove Play Balls?
- Jimmy Fox 1939 Play Ball?

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Posted By: Jason L

ok, lots of questions concerning why certain players were or were not in certain sets, and then plenty of questions surrounding distribution methods and quantities.

When this information has been found in the past for some of the sets that we know plenty about, what does the source look like?
Do people find company records -like advertising budgets, printing orders, sales orders, etc??? Or is our entire body of knowledge been pieced together from the issues themeslves -like what the backs say, etc???

What are we looking for? aside from some miraculous lucky find of the actual items in someone's attic?

Should we be searching company archives, legal records, elsewhere?

Seems to me there's just so much that we don't know!

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Posted By: J Levine

How Mr. Mint is still around...

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Posted By: peter chao

I really can't believe Mr. Mint is still around...not only that it appears that he is thriving. There was an article about him in the SF Examiner recently...the guy collects antique robots.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Paul S

The guy IS an antique robot!

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Mintman lucks out-toy robots are on fire right now

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Posted By: David Smith

Didn't Mr. Mint win the two different lots of Scrapps that were on eBay recently?? I looked at the winner's feedback and it showed they bought robots....

I just looked at those two auctions and "Howdy-09" was the winner.

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Posted By: anthony

with so few cobbs with cobb backs, i personally think it was sometime type of promo or insert that never got off the ground. especially since he is the only player with that back. so "no it is not part of the official t206 set"

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Posted By: Ed Ford

Why does he have a St. Louis jersey. He never played nor was he associated in any way with St. Louis. Did Mayo confuse him with his brother who played for St Louis in 1893 ? Is this the first photoshop card ?

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Posted By: Rich Klein

1) How many T206 Honus Wagners are truly out there. My personal belief is that there are more than you think

2) Why the "glut" of cards issued 1909-11; after a basically dormant period of nealy 20 years.

3) How much is left out there for us to find? I would venture some "regional" issues may be unknown to this day.

4) Not quite a card issue, but where is Eddie Grant's Polo Grounds memorial plaque, where is the Duvray (sic) cup?, where is the "Merkle boner" ball,

5) Why do WE all collect (obsess?) over these cards and for some of us, their grades?

Regards
Rich

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Why were T202's cut across the top and bottom after being folded?

I believe the Cobb w/Cobb back is a salesman's sample and not distributed to the public.

I also think they needed players permission to make cards of them and those not all were willing to pay what was needed to add them to their sets.

Lee

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Lee