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  #1  
Old 01-21-2018, 04:41 PM
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Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
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Default After All: He's Only 40!

To no surprise, Tom Brady is headed to his Twentieth Super Bowl?

This time, he didn't need Gronk or his trainer, just a Bandaid!


I really thought they had him this time.
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Last edited by clydepepper; 01-21-2018 at 04:42 PM. Reason: even more embelishment...not (em)Belichik
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  #2  
Old 01-21-2018, 05:11 PM
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It's his 8th.
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  #3  
Old 01-21-2018, 06:39 PM
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Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
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I know, I know - just trying to be funny...

I am definitely NOT betting against him winning again either!

-
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Old 01-21-2018, 06:53 PM
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I hope the Patriots win their 6th title. Then the Pats fans and the Steelers fans can chestbeat each other to death and leave the rest of the other fans alone.
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  #5  
Old 01-21-2018, 08:03 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Eagles will win unless they miss a fg with less than 30 secs left...
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  #6  
Old 01-22-2018, 06:14 PM
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I hate the pats so much, that if they were playing the Taliban or ISIS I would root for the Taliban.

Seriously. I hope their plane crashes on the way to the game killing everyone on board. My hatred is deep, offensively deep, and I am very happy with my psychopathic POV of them.
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Old 01-22-2018, 07:03 PM
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I bet you've got 283 reasons too.
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  #8  
Old 01-22-2018, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
I hate the pats so much, that if they were playing the Taliban or ISIS I would root for the Taliban.

Seriously. I hope their plane crashes on the way to the game killing everyone on board. My hatred is deep, offensively deep, and I am very happy with my psychopathic POV of them.
Infraction given. I don't want to see that kind of rhetoric on this board. You can have all of the psychopathic thoughts you want, just not here. Nothing personal ....
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Old 01-23-2018, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
To no surprise, Tom Brady is headed to his Twentieth Super Bowl?

Brady is going to his 25th Superbowl - GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
I hate the pats so much, that if they were playing the Taliban or ISIS I would root for the Taliban.
Hilarious!!! A lot of people can't stand them, including me, because they are in the Superbowl almost every year. However, we all have to admit one thing: Brady is the GOAT. Every time he wins, football fans complain about him cheating or doing something else, but then he does it again and again and again. Brady could win the Superbowl with one leg and football fans would still accuse him of doing something wrong.
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Last edited by samosa4u; 01-23-2018 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Added more
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  #10  
Old 01-23-2018, 04:10 PM
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While I do realize I started this thread (like Brady needs any more attention) but truth be told, aside from Gronk, through whose life, sans injuries, I live vicariously, I do hate both the Patriots and Alabama...and all this gives the Yankees time to become the damn Yankees again...triple yuck!

'Everyone hates Goliath' - maybe not an exact quote but certainly from someone who knew it was true.

I stand guilty as charged....and all that goes for the red sox too!


- I'll add one more point: Some of the espn 'experts' were spouting off today about how Brady is difference from anyone else- be it Manning, Rodgers, Brees, etc...

and it's hard to believe ANYONE thinks this: Brady is committed enough to GIVE UP HIS LIFE to be the best of all time.

Here's my question: Since when has being married to a super model, having healthy kids and making millions been considered 'giving up your life'?
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Last edited by clydepepper; 01-23-2018 at 04:16 PM.
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  #11  
Old 01-23-2018, 07:49 PM
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I generally root against Brady, unless the opponent is someone I dislike more. Falcons? Saints fan here... Had to pull for Brady. Seahawks? Hard to pull for Richard Sherman... Had to pull for Brady. Giants? Nobody I disliked, so couldn't root for Brady. Eagles? Gotta like Filed (and Wentz). Ajayi, Jeffries, and the defense. Plus Philly fans are passionate. So, gotta root against Brady on this one.
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Old 01-23-2018, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
'Everyone hates Goliath' - maybe not an exact quote but certainly from someone who knew it was true.
"Nobody roots for Goliath" - Wilt Chamberlain

I hate the Pats, but as a Giant fan I love being the only team that has beat them in the Superbowl in the Belicheck/Brady era, so I root for them when they're not playing the G-Men.
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Old 01-23-2018, 10:01 PM
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If Brady were on our team, we would love him.

He's one of the VERY few quarterbacks in the NFL who's job is to win the game for his team. The vast majority of quarterbacks have the job of not losing the game.
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:07 AM
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I don't think Brady is the greatest of all-time. Why do people continually confuse team accomplishments with individual greatness?

He's won five Super Bowls. Fact.
He's an all-time great. Fact.
He's a first ballot Hall of Famer. Opinion, but I can't see any way he's not.

He's the greatest of all-time. This is pure conjecture.

Football is a team sport. Brady is one part of a very successful Patriots franchise. But let's be honest, he's benefited tremendously from having one of the top three head coaches of the modern era, a Hall of Fame tight end for the past eight years, an owner who, time and time again, has shown a willingness to spend in free agency to make the team better, and, oh yeah, an historically great defense.

The names on the defensive side of the ball might not be sexy, and they have changed over time. But look where the Pats have finished in scoring defense the years they have won it all with Brady:

2001: 6th
2003: 1st
2004: 2nd
2014: 8th
2015: 1st

This year? They're 5th in scoring defense.

Say what you want about Brady. I don't dispute that he's a tremendous quarterback. Easily one of the best all-time. But if you take some of the other guys in the conversation, somebody like a Dan Marino, or even an Aaron Rodgers---give those guys the ridiculous wealth of resources that Brady has enjoyed--is it a stretch to imagine that they'd have just as many rings, if not more?

Tom Brady has a career 97.6 QB rating; he's thrown 488 TD passes against 160 INT, a career ratio of 3.05:1.
Aaron Rodgers, in the same era, has a career 103.8 QB rating; he's thrown 313 TD passes against 78 INT, a career ratio of 4.01:1. Brady is the only other guy with a 3:1 career ratio, and Rodgers is a full TD pass better.

What about Brady's performance during Rodgers' career as a starter, from 2008 on? Brady's QB rating while Rodgers has played is 100.8. Very close to Rodgers' 104.2, but still below it. Now, his TD to INT ratio is better, 291 TD to 74 INT, or 3.93:1, but it's still not as good as Rodgers'. And, you cannot simply compare the numbers from Rodgers first start forward against Brady, who'd already started six seasons in the NFL. Before 2008, Aaron Rodgers had only attempted 59 passes as Brett Favre's backup. Wanna say that "he learned so much from Favre?" Yes, he learned a good deal. But Favre was the ultimate gunslinger, making the impossible throws, but also making boneheaded turnovers. Rodgers is the anti-Favre. He's every bit as deadly, but he takes care of the ball much better than Favre ever did, even when he was winning three consecutive MVP awards.

Tom Brady, in his first MVP season, 2007, had Randy Moss, who went for 98 catches, 1,493 yards and 23 TD. He also had Wes Welker grabbing 112 passes. Gronkowski, though he has been dinged up from time to time, has been dominant. He's caught 76 TD passes in 102 career games.

Has Aaron Rodgers ever had a Hall of Fame receiver or right end? Nope. Jordy Nelson is very good, but he's not Moss. And Rodgers has never had that kind of weapon in the middle of the field.

Rodgers does every single thing that Brady can do, every bit as well. And he's absolutely lethal outside of the pocket, and as a scrambler.

But he doesn't have five Super Bowl rings. So, he's not the GOAT. Rodgers, in his third year as a starter, destroyed the Pittsburgh Steelers' #1 ranked defense in the Super Bowl, even though he lost the franchise's all-time leading receiver, Donald Driver, in the first half. He had Greg Jennings, James Jones who dropped a pass that would have been a 60 + yard touchdown, and Jordy Nelson, who was unproven. He also had James Starks at running back, who hadn't played all season.

Then, look at somebody like Dan Marino, who re-wrote all the passing records with absolutely nothing on his team besides Mark Clayton and Mark Duper. Give him the defense Brady has had, and that kind of a ridiculous mismatch at tight end. How many Super Bowls does he win?

If you want to call him a Hall of Famer, and all-time great, the greatest winner in the Super Bowl era--no problem. But when you start hailing him as the greatest to ever play the position, better-than-compelling arguments can be made that, while near the top, he is not the greatest all-time running away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
However, we all have to admit one thing: Brady is the GOAT. Every time he wins, football fans complain about him cheating or doing something else, but then he does it again and again and again. Brady could win the Superbowl with one leg and football fans would still accuse him of doing something wrong.
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:56 AM
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I like that comparison with Rogers. Being in the same era it's an nice direct comparison.

Comparison with Marino is a bit less direct, but the point that Marino was spectacular on some iffy teams is a good one. Sometimes big traditional passing stats from anyone are because the defense wasn't good, and the QB had to pass a lot.

The team certainly has a lot to do with the results. As far as I can tell, stability is a major part of that.

If they'd lost that first superbowl, would they have stuck with Bledsoe? And when would Brady have gotten a chance?

And if they'd lost and then had a down year like they did, but decided to get rid of Belichick .. Maybe Brady never gets a shot.

At the time he was very much a system guy, loads of short passes with a good chance at completing them. Another coach maybe decides to make him a scrambler or pushes for more downfield low percentage plays, and if his confidence suffers as a result he ends up being average or worse.


There's so much that can go wrong or right during a career.


One player that I think just might actually be the best at his position all time is Gronk. Sometimes even the numbers he's put up in a half season where he missed games hurt would be a very nice season for most tight ends.
And yes, a part of that is system, and another part Brady.
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:46 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
I don't think Brady is the greatest of all-time. Why do people continually confuse team accomplishments with individual greatness?


Then, look at somebody like Dan Marino, who re-wrote all the passing records with absolutely nothing on his team besides Mark Clayton and Mark Duper. Give him the defense Brady has had, and that kind of a ridiculous mismatch at tight end. How many Super Bowls does he win?

If you want to call him a Hall of Famer, and all-time great, the greatest winner in the Super Bowl era--no problem. But when you start hailing him as the greatest to ever play the position, better-than-compelling arguments can be made that, while near the top, he is not the greatest all-time running away.
Quarterbacks dont play defense so Marino not having a Defense didnt impact his passing stats...he also had more weapons than just Clayton and Duper

I know its a team game but eventually year after year, if you keep winning super bowls not sure how that doest put you ahead. All of these comebacks even in last years super bowl against the falcons.. How do you measure that statistically. I know there are arguments you can make now even though 8 super bowls is getting silly...what if it gets to 14 super bowls? when the next 'great qb' in all history is stuck at 5...i do think it matters...and i hate brady by the way...
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:52 PM
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Bill you should watch the games, not just read the stat sheet. After all these years, and titles, and comeback victories, with innumerable different receivers, with or without decent running backs, with Gronk playing or not playing, it doesn't seem to matter, there is no question in my mind he is the greatest QB ever. The more interesting discussion is about the rest of the top 5, or 10.
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Old 01-24-2018, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector View Post
Quarterbacks dont play defense so Marino not having a Defense didnt impact his passing stats...he also had more weapons than just Clayton and Duper
If the defense is average to bad, there's more chance you're playing while behind, and that traditionally means more passing. So it does affect the stats. If I had the time and inclination I'd do some sort of math study of it, but I'm just not that into the math.

I did use that sort of concept playing fantasy FB, which is pretty much about nothing but stats. I only put maybe 2-3 players in my draft list, and by week three there was always a good idea who was becoming "good" and had been overlooked. SO for me the revolving door spun a lot!
Had Welker on the Dolphins when we got points for return yards..
And Gore with SF the same.
Then the guy running it took away return yards.
Had a nice run of kickers with range who played for teams with really average offenses. Made the difference a few times.
The he took away the huge point difference between 30-50 yard FGs and 50+
Had Brady for a change when Moss was on the team.
Next year he changed QB touchdowns from 6 points to 4....

Eventually he gave up.
I think I won 3 times in 7 years, second twice more and only missed the playoffs once.
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Old 01-24-2018, 02:33 PM
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Look no further than Green Bay this season for how important the quarterback is. The loss of AR flipped their season. Even with other injuries, the quarterback was key, and usually is with teams.

Brady drives the Pats. They can have injury and turnover at other positions, but not at QB.

It's not the X's and O's, it's the Jimmy's and the Joe's. Play calling is important, more importantly is the players and execution. High performance. Brady brings that to level not seen before. His overall body of work is superior to others and is the GOAT.
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Old 01-24-2018, 02:54 PM
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Ah the vitriol for Brady, Belichick and the Pats.
It reminds me of the hate for Alabama.

Not a Pats fan as I am a Cards fan but I marvel at what they have done and continue to do. In my mind without question he is the best to ever play the position. Of course, it's a question with no answer merely points of view.

My guess is if he played most folks' team with the same results they would feel the same way about him that the Pats fans and many others do. Success breeds contempt and also affects viewpoints.
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Old 01-24-2018, 05:29 PM
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Woohoo go Pats!🎈📌
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  #22  
Old 01-25-2018, 02:11 AM
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Come on, Peter. That's kind of a dismissive statement, don't you think?

I have watched the games. Many of them. Every Super Bowl. A great number of the playoff games. I've not only watched them live, I've taped several of them, and watched them a second time. And, I've watched a plethora of key plays on Youtube more times than I can count. I allow for "the human factor" in my analysis; I have to. Not everything translates, statistically. You can't quantify the pressure of the moment. A receiver (or a safety) falling down. A tipped pass. I would never make a statement about Tom Brady, or any other player, simply off of statistical data.

I remember the 2001 AFC Divisional playoff game against the Raiders where Charles Woodson caused Brady to fumble. Brady should have never even gotten to that first Super Bowl, because the Raiders recovered, and the game should have been over with a Raiders victory. The "tuck rule" is complete BS. He wasn't in the process of throwing a pass. He started to, but brought the ball back down to his body, and then the ball got stripped. Part of his "legacy", his five rings, is a joke.

And I don't care what anybody else says. Having an elite defense in every one of those years he's won it all makes his job a hell of a lot easier. No matter who he has on the offensive side of the ball with him, if he screws up, he's got the security that his defense is going to bail him out a great deal of the time. It's much easier to win playoff games when the defense is incredible because you can push the ball downfield. You don't have to be perfect. No mistake? You score, and your chance of winning greatly increases. Screw it up? Your defense is not likely to allow the other team to score. Don't you think there's infinitely more pressure to perform on the shoulders of a guy like Aaron Rodgers? If he doesn't make a play, his team likely loses. More on that in a bit.

He should have lost the Super Bowl to Seattle. A brain fart call cost them a second title, and gave Brady another ring.

Again, I'm not saying Brady's not an incredible quarterback. He's clearly one of the best of all-time. But it's not a walk off (to use a baseball term in a football discussion) that he's the best to ever play the position. Look past the rings. Too often, we get distracted by shiny things. You have to look deeper at the individual's play within the success.

He's only ranked 13th in postseason passer rating. If he were the greatest ever, wouldn't he be higher? This whole discussion is based on what he's done in the post season. Well, I'm sorry, but a 90.1 QB rating is very good, but not outstanding. Bart Starr put up a 104.8 career passer rating in the post season. He went 9-1 in the playoffs. A .900 winning percentage. Both of those destroy Brady, and Starr played in an era where passing the ball was infinitely more difficult. He won five World Championships in seven years, and his one loss was in the 1960 NFL Championship against the Eagles.

Starr played in an era where the quarterback and receiver didn't get the ridiculous amount of protection they do now. They could, you know, actually get hit. If the ball came out when Starr got tackled, it was a fumble. No zebras were on the sidelines helping him out.

You know how many times the Patriots, in 36 post season games with Tom Brady at QB, have allowed more than 30 points to an opponent? 3 times. 1 time in every 12 starts, or 8.3% of the time Brady takes the field. They've never given up 40.

Compare that to the Packers with Aaron Rodgers. In 16 games with Rodgers at the helm, the Packers have surrendered 30 or more points 5 times. 1 time in every 3.2 starts, or 31% of the time Rodgers takes the field. And in 3 of those 5 games, the Packer D surrendered over 40 points, something the Patriots have never done under Brady. So much is made about Rodgers' legacy of "failure" in the post season. "He's only won one ring." In his first playoff start, Rodgers threw for 423 yards and 4 TD, and ran another in. The Packers put up 45 points--and lost 51-45 because the defense imploded. And the final play of the game, a fumble by Rodgers returned by the Cardinals for a score, should have been overturned. The Cardinal defender grabbed Rodgers facemask, and pulled his helmet down over his face. Had that been Brady, you know the play would have been overruled by the officials. By the way, in 36 career post season starts, Brady has thrown for more than 423 yards once, and more than 4 TD passes once. Rodgers did it in his first post season start. And lost. Was it Rodgers fault the defense gave up 45 points? How about when the Packers lost 31-45 to the 49ers in 2012? Is it Rodgers' fault that Collin Kaepernick, who can't even get a job in the NFL five years later, passed for 262 yards, and ran for 184? Is it Rodgers fault that the Packer D and special teams imploded in Seattle in the NFC Championship Game? Or, that the Packer D gave up 44 to the Falcons in the NFC Championship Game last year? Rodgers played without his #2 receiver, Davante Adams. His #1 receiver Jordy Nelson had missed the Cowboys game the week before, and could barely walk because of a broken rib. Both his starting halfbacks, Eddie Lacy and James Starks, were out for the season, so his wide receiver Ty Montgomery had to start at running back. But it's Rodgers "failure" as a quarterback. Tom Brady would have won, right?

Now, Brady has played slightly over twice as many games as Rodgers, but there's enough of a sample size to make these comparisons.

Brady has a career 90.1 passer rating in the post season.
Rodgers has a 99.4.

The Patriots have scored 969 points in 36 playoff games under Brady, or 26.9 ppg.
The Packers have scored 457 points in 16 playoff games under Rodgers, or 28.6 ppg.

So, under Rodgers, the Packers have outperformed the Brady Patriots by 1.7 ppg. Not a huge difference, about a safety. But it's still clear that Rodgers and the Packer offense have been better than Brady and the Patriot offense in the playoffs.

But here is the difference.

The Patriots have allowed 722 points in 36 playoff games with Brady, or 20.1 ppg.
The Packers have allowed 423 points in 16 playoff games with Rodgers, or 26.4 ppg.
The Patriots defense have surrendered nearly a full touchdown, per game, less than the Packers. 6.3 ppg. At least two field goals. And that is why Brady has five rings, and Rodgers only one. It's not because Brady has performed better. It's because the Patriots have had a terrific scoring defense. The Packers have not, outside of the season they won the Super Bowl (they were #2 in scoring allowed).

Look at the point differential.

The Pats have scored 247 more points in the playoffs than they have allowed, in 36 games.
The Packers have scored 34 more points in the playoffs than they have allowed, in 16 games.
The Pats have an average margin of 6.86 points per game. Nearly a touchdown.
The Packers have an average margin of 2.12 points per game.

And that's post season. Look at how the two teams have fared in scoring defense in the regular season.



In 17 seasons with Brady, the Patriots defense has finished outside the top 10 in scoring defense only 3 times! And every season they've won the Super Bowl, they've been top 10: 6th, 1st, 2nd, 8th and 1st.

In 10 years with Rodgers, the Packer defense has finished in the top 10 in scoring defense only 2 times! Look where the Packer D has ended up each season in points allowed. The last seven seasons, since winning the Super Bowl, the Packers have finished, on average, 18th in the league. The last 5, 19th in the league, out of 32 teams. Put another way, the Packers have finished in the bottom half in the NFL in points allowed four of the last seven seasons. The Patriots? They've done that twice in 17 seasons. Average finish in the NFL in scoring for their careers? The Patriots have finished 8th (7.52) in the NFL in scoring defense, on average, for Brady's career. Top 1/4 of the league for the entirety of the time he's been in the NFL. The Packers? 16th, on average (15.7). Middle of the NFL.

And that's just the defense.

Anybody saying that Tom Brady is simply "the greatest" because of his rings really needs to look deeper.



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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Bill you should watch the games, not just read the stat sheet. After all these years, and titles, and comeback victories, with innumerable different receivers, with or without decent running backs, with Gronk playing or not playing, it doesn't seem to matter, there is no question in my mind he is the greatest QB ever. The more interesting discussion is about the rest of the top 5, or 10.
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Old 01-25-2018, 02:19 AM
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See, now the bolded part is pure hyperbole. Because in 2008, they did lose Brady. The year after he was First Team NFL All Pro, and NFL MVP for the first time, he blew out his ACL in week one. Attempted 11 passes before getting hurt.

The Patriots without "Tom Terrific" went 11-5. They suffered soooo mightily as Matt Cassel came in and threw for 3,700 yards and 21 TD passes. Somehow, without Captain America, Wes Welker and Randy Moss both managed to go for over 1,000 yards. Welker went to the Pro Bowl.

And this?

"High performance. Brady brings that to level not seen before."

What level is that? 13th best, all-time, in the post season?

Again, pure hyperbole. It sounds good. But factually, inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by KCRfan1 View Post
Look no further than Green Bay this season for how important the quarterback is. The loss of AR flipped their season. Even with other injuries, the quarterback was key, and usually is with teams.

Brady drives the Pats. They can have injury and turnover at other positions, but not at QB.

It's not the X's and O's, it's the Jimmy's and the Joe's. Play calling is important, more importantly is the players and execution. High performance. Brady brings that to level not seen before. His overall body of work is superior to others and is the GOAT.
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Old 01-25-2018, 02:42 AM
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Oh, and before any of you guys want to dismiss what I'm saying as "being a Brady/Patriots hater"...please, just stop before you begin. If I didn't have Aaron Rodgers at quarterback, would I have Brady taking snaps from Corey Linsley? Hell, yes. In a New York minute. He might be smug, at times, but so is Rodgers. Show me a Hall of Fame athlete in any sport that doesn't come across as confident at one time or another? I think the Patriots have done some questionable things, yes. But so have other NFL teams. The difference is that the Patriots had the spotlight shined on them because of their success.

I don't hate Brady, or the Pats. Now, if he played for the Vikings, that would be a different story. But the basis of my analysis is made without any personal bias. I'm a Packer fan, absolutely. I think Rodgers is the best to ever play the game. He doesn't have the rings because his team and coaching staff haven't been as good as those in Boston. But as a pure passer, nobody has ever played the game at a higher level. I say that with a caveat because the rules of the game have changed. Marino might have thrown 50 TDs every year had he played today.

But when the narrative of Super Bowl rings is removed, how can you objectively state that Brady is the best ever? The numbers don't support that assessment. Rodgers has had one comeback after another. Only, he doesn't get the press because the Packers defense blows it. He loses. Brady wins. He has the Packers ahead of Seattle with a few minutes left, and then the D and special teams turn into the keystone cops. With a minute remaining, he drives them the length of the field, and Crosby kicks a field goal to tie it. Then the Packer D falls flat on their face again. Rodgers, playing on one leg, misses a chance to go to his second Super Bowl. And therein is the difference. The Patriots wouldn't have done this:

With 3:52 left in the game, the Packers leading 19-7...
The Packer D allowed Seattle to go 69 yards for a touchdown in 1:16. 19-14 Pack.
The Packer special teams then allowed Seattle to recover an onside kick.
The Packer D allowed Seattle to go 50 yards for a touchdown in :40. 20-19 Seattle.
The Packer D allowed Seattle a two-point conversion. 22-19 Seattle.

Aaron Rodgers takes the Packers 48 yards in 1 minute, and Crosby kicks the tying field goal. 22-22.

On 3rd and 7, the Packer D gives up a 35 yard pass play to Doug Baldwin.
Next play, the Packer D gives up a 35 yard pass play to Jermaine Kearse. Touchdown. Seattle wins 28-22.

Think that would have ever happened in New England?
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Old 01-25-2018, 05:05 AM
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I`ll take Brady.
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Old 01-25-2018, 06:33 AM
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Bill, I don't know the answer to this, but is it possible the Patriots' defensive statistics are in part attributable to the success of the offense under Brady, either in that the opponents' time of possession is reduced, and/or that the opponents are behind more than usual and forced to play out of their normal game? I've certainly seen a lot of that in watching games but not sure it's a statistically valid observation.
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Old 01-25-2018, 07:00 AM
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If the defense is average to bad, there's more chance you're playing while behind, and that traditionally means more passing. So it does affect the stats. If I had the time and inclination I'd do some sort of math study of it, but I'm just not that into the math.

I did use that sort of concept playing fantasy FB, which is pretty much about nothing but stats. I only put maybe 2-3 players in my draft list, and by week three there was always a good idea who was becoming "good" and had been overlooked. SO for me the revolving door spun a lot!
Had Welker on the Dolphins when we got points for return yards..
And Gore with SF the same.
Then the guy running it took away return yards.
Had a nice run of kickers with range who played for teams with really average offenses. Made the difference a few times.
The he took away the huge point difference between 30-50 yard FGs and 50+
Had Brady for a change when Moss was on the team.
Next year he changed QB touchdowns from 6 points to 4....

Eventually he gave up.
I think I won 3 times in 7 years, second twice more and only missed the playoffs once.
We not talking about fantasy football. When you are down, yes you can get more passing yards but also at a risk of INTs...you dont see QBs who lose 40-24 usually throw for 3 tds and 0 picks....

its not like Brady is throwing for 220 yards and managing the games. He is throwing for enough yards and 'winning' enough games in my book to reach critical mass to be declared the best even when compared to any players that 'crush' him in yards/tds etc or would have crushed him if they played today.

Plus Brady has shown to win games with a bunch of rotating WR RBs that have cycled throughout the league. Marino clayton and duper is not even closes to montana having Taylor/Rice and many more other better options.

Basically if we list the best options Brady had , i believe for the most part its Brady (and the Brady/Pats system) that made them great.

Matt Cassal did win 10 games though...anyway..


Bill Russell is sort of lumped into the great, but it was his team category. I dont think Brady is remotely close to Russell. In todays modern era in football and salary cap and concussions, good luck ever seeing another QB go and start in 8 superbowls ever again.

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Old 01-25-2018, 08:05 AM
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Bill you should watch the games, not just read the stat sheet. After all these years, and titles, and comeback victories, with innumerable different receivers, with or without decent running backs, with Gronk playing or not playing, it doesn't seem to matter, there is no question in my mind he is the greatest QB ever. The more interesting discussion is about the rest of the top 5, or 10.
I remember when football was a game played by the players, before their helmets were headsets and the real quarterbacks called their own plays.

Now you have offensive coordinators, defensive coordinators, all with access to instaneous video of what the other team is doing in alignments and reactions to each other. Every team has a plethora of coaching personnel both on the sideline and in the press box.

The NFL has become a giant video game orchestrated from off the field. Yeah, they can call audibles before the snap, but many of these can be communicated from off the field.

Let’s face it, the players are like pawns on a chess board. Does anyone ever talk about the best bishop or rook of all-time? Does anyone think that Brady or Rodgers is a queen? Hell no.

Is any quarterback solely responsible for calling dumb ass play that costs team a game? Rarely if ever.

In my opinion the responsibility for the Patriots run falls squarely on the shoulders of the man in the hoodie, Bill Belichick.
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Old 01-25-2018, 08:05 AM
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The Patriots without "Tom Terrific" went 11-5. They suffered soooo mightily as Matt Cassel came in and threw for 3,700 yards and 21 TD passes. Somehow, without Captain America, Wes Welker and Randy Moss both managed to go for over 1,000 yards. Welker went to the Pro Bowl.
The season before, with the same receivers and playing a tougher schedule, Tom Brady put up 50 TDs and 4,800 yards. That is a major drop off, especially as all 5 of the 2008 Patriots losses were to playoff bound teams. In 2007, Randy Moss alone caught 23 TDs from Brady, 2 more than Cassel put up the entire following year. You can’t look at the stats and not see how losing Brady hurt them in a big way, especially on a team that missed the playoffs on tiebreakers.

As for the Patriots defense bailing him out all the time, he dragged the 31st ranked defense to Super Bowl 46, where Bill Belichick had so little faith in them he gave up a score to the Giants to get the offense back on the field sooner. Then two years ago, he lead the #1 offense even though all his favorite targets missed significant time that year. Gronkowski and Edelman missed several games as did Amendola, and defense captain Jerod Mayo was banged up so badly he retired after the season. In spite of this, in Denver, against the #1 defense with his center, Bryan Stork, tipping the snaps, they were a pair of missed PATs away from going to SB 50.
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Old 01-25-2018, 08:42 AM
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Bill, I believe that Brady caught a break on the tuck rule as well. But, if you are using Starr's 9-1 record, you also have to acknowledge the break he caught. In 1965, trailing 10-7 with 1:58 left in a playoff game against the Colts (in which Tom Matte, the running back, was the Colts' quarterback due to injuries to Unitas and Cuozzo), the Packers' kicker made a 22 yard field goal. Well, the referee said he made it, but television replays showed it was wide. There was no replay, so it stands. The Packers go on to win the game in overtime (with Zeke Bratkowski at QB for the Packers after Starr was injured, yet Starr gets credit for that win), and the following week, the Packers beat the Browns for the title. If the field goal is ruled correctly, it is a Colts vs Browns NFL Championship Game. Starr has one less ring. Maybe they dismantle some of the pieces and don't go on to win those Super Bowls. Who knows?
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Old 01-25-2018, 01:13 PM
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The season before, with the same receivers and playing a tougher schedule, Tom Brady put up 50 TDs and 4,800 yards. That is a major drop off, especially as all 5 of the 2008 Patriots losses were to playoff bound teams. In 2007, Randy Moss alone caught 23 TDs from Brady, 2 more than Cassel put up the entire following year. You can’t look at the stats and not see how losing Brady hurt them in a big way, especially on a team that missed the playoffs on tiebreakers.

As for the Patriots defense bailing him out all the time, he dragged the 31st ranked defense to Super Bowl 46, where Bill Belichick had so little faith in them he gave up a score to the Giants to get the offense back on the field sooner. Then two years ago, he lead the #1 offense even though all his favorite targets missed significant time that year. Gronkowski and Edelman missed several games as did Amendola, and defense captain Jerod Mayo was banged up so badly he retired after the season. In spite of this, in Denver, against the #1 defense with his center, Bryan Stork, tipping the snaps, they were a pair of missed PATs away from going to SB 50.
From memory that was a weak 11-5 team that everyone knew had no chance of going deep into the playoffs. It's just pointless to try to minimize Brady's role in the Patriot's dominance.
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Old 01-25-2018, 01:15 PM
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Bill, I believe that Brady caught a break on the tuck rule as well. But, if you are using Starr's 9-1 record, you also have to acknowledge the break he caught. In 1965, trailing 10-7 with 1:58 left in a playoff game against the Colts (in which Tom Matte, the running back, was the Colts' quarterback due to injuries to Unitas and Cuozzo), the Packers' kicker made a 22 yard field goal. Well, the referee said he made it, but television replays showed it was wide. There was no replay, so it stands. The Packers go on to win the game in overtime (with Zeke Bratkowski at QB for the Packers after Starr was injured, yet Starr gets credit for that win), and the following week, the Packers beat the Browns for the title. If the field goal is ruled correctly, it is a Colts vs Browns NFL Championship Game. Starr has one less ring. Maybe they dismantle some of the pieces and don't go on to win those Super Bowls. Who knows?
You can always play what if. What if Tyree doesn't make that absurd catch, or the refs call one of the multiple holds that gave Manning time to throw? What if Welker doesn't drop an easy ball, or that other guy doesn't make another circus catch?
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Old 01-25-2018, 01:53 PM
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Every close game is subject to partisan second guessing of the officiating and conspiracy theories of their participation in bribery and/or collusion.

NB: This post refers only to football.

Oh, and by the way, "Kill The Ump, da bum."
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Old 01-25-2018, 03:59 PM
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In my opinion the responsibility for the Patriots run falls squarely on the shoulders of the man in the hoodie, Bill Belichick.
I agree. BB as GM and head coach has orchestrated this dynasty. He finds all the right pieces to the puzzle. Goes after players who are coachable and will do what he tells them. Put Brady on the Browns for the past 15 years and how many SB rings (or even appearances) does he have? BB wants players who put the team before themselves. You won't see them tweeting about how they're gonna win, etc.
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Old 01-25-2018, 05:06 PM
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I agree. BB as GM and head coach has orchestrated this dynasty. He finds all the right pieces to the puzzle. Goes after players who are coachable and will do what he tells them. Put Brady on the Browns for the past 15 years and how many SB rings (or even appearances) does he have? BB wants players who put the team before themselves. You won't see them tweeting about how they're gonna win, etc.
And put BB on the Browns and see how many he wins. Oh wait, been there, done that.
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Old 01-25-2018, 05:22 PM
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S

The Patriots without "Tom Terrific" went 11-5. They suffered soooo mightily as Matt Cassel came in and threw for 3,700 yards and 21 TD passes. Somehow, without Captain America, Wes Welker and Randy Moss both managed to go for over 1,000 yards. Welker went to the Pro Bowl.
.
and they didnt make the playoffs....
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Old 01-25-2018, 07:31 PM
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And put BB on the Browns and see how many he wins. Oh wait, been there, done that.
Was he given full GM power like he has now? I don't know the answer, but guessing no.
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Old 01-26-2018, 11:50 AM
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Bart Starr put up a 104.8 career passer rating in the post season. He went 9-1 in the playoffs. A .900 winning percentage. Both of those destroy Brady, and Starr played in an era where passing the ball was infinitely more difficult. He won five World Championships in seven years, and his one loss was in the 1960 NFL Championship against the Eagles.
Starr also played on a team with a great defense.

I haven't looked, but I'd think there are few superbowl winners who haven't had at least a very good defense.
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Old 01-26-2018, 12:09 PM
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We not talking about fantasy football. When you are down, yes you can get more passing yards but also at a risk of INTs...you dont see QBs who lose 40-24 usually throw for 3 tds and 0 picks....

its not like Brady is throwing for 220 yards and managing the games. He is throwing for enough yards and 'winning' enough games in my book to reach critical mass to be declared the best even when compared to any players that 'crush' him in yards/tds etc or would have crushed him if they played today.

Plus Brady has shown to win games with a bunch of rotating WR RBs that have cycled throughout the league. Marino clayton and duper is not even closes to montana having Taylor/Rice and many more other better options.

Basically if we list the best options Brady had , i believe for the most part its Brady (and the Brady/Pats system) that made them great.

Matt Cassal did win 10 games though...anyway..


Bill Russell is sort of lumped into the great, but it was his team category. I dont think Brady is remotely close to Russell. In todays modern era in football and salary cap and concussions, good luck ever seeing another QB go and start in 8 superbowls ever again.
No, but the results there are directly tied to the real world stats.
Teams with mediocre offenses or good offenses against better defenses will use the kicker more.
A good QB on a team that has a poor defense will throw for more yards more often. - Rogers, Brees



I do think the team has been amazing, and I've been fortunate to be a fan during that run. A long way from them getting crushed by the bears, or Rod Rust nearly getting electrocuted by the microphone at his introductory press conference..

That there are QBs like Rogers and Brees who put up flashy enough stats to make an argument that winning the most might not make you the best player at a position also says a lot about the entire last 20 years.
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Old 01-26-2018, 02:04 PM
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Are you referring to Mr. Roger’s neighborhood or Aaron Rodgers? Good grief!!!


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No, but the results there are directly tied to the real world stats.
Teams with mediocre offenses or good offenses against better defenses will use the kicker more.
A good QB on a team that has a poor defense will throw for more yards more often. - Rogers, Brees



I do think the team has been amazing, and I've been fortunate to be a fan during that run. A long way from them getting crushed by the bears, or Rod Rust nearly getting electrocuted by the microphone at his introductory press conference..

That there are QBs like Rogers and Brees who put up flashy enough stats to make an argument that winning the most might not make you the best player at a position also says a lot about the entire last 20 years.
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Old 01-26-2018, 03:55 PM
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No, but the results there are directly tied to the real world stats.
Teams with mediocre offenses or good offenses against better defenses will use the kicker more.
A good QB on a team that has a poor defense will throw for more yards more often. - Rogers, Brees



I do think the team has been amazing, and I've been fortunate to be a fan during that run. A long way from them getting crushed by the bears, or Rod Rust nearly getting electrocuted by the microphone at his introductory press conference..

That there are QBs like Rogers and Brees who put up flashy enough stats to make an argument that winning the most might not make you the best player at a position also says a lot about the entire last 20 years.
theres winning and then theres WINNING.

people used to argue bradshaw/montana etc cause of a whopping 4 superbowls...versus some passing stat stud with 1 or 0 superbowls

when you are getting to 8 superbowls..possibly 10 ...this type of argument really looks silly now when going against a guy with all those SB appearences

manage the game qbs like Dilfer etc , yeah they will get to a super bowl perhaps..but to get into 8, the QB has to be good..again its not like brady averages 200 yards a game either...his passing stats are up there too..and the counting stats etc..
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Old 01-26-2018, 05:09 PM
TUM301 TUM301 is offline
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It seems as though the G O A T discussion as of late more often than not comes down to Brady and A Rodgers. Rodgers can make any type of throw at any time and is the most talented QB I`ve ever seen. Brady has the best understanding and feel for the game of any player I`ve seen. What sets Brady apart from all the rest in my opinion is his complete devotion, on and off the field, to his team winning the championship. In a strange way, documented in an upcoming 6 part series, he seems to eat/sleep/obssess his craft almost 24 hours a day. This attitude and realizing if you want to win you don`t have to be even among the top say 15 highest payed QB`s has led to stronger teams and unequaled longevity. Hey it`s a lot easier to do when the queen`s bringing in another 30+ million a year also.
The final piece to the puzzle is of course Belichick and to a much lessor degree but still, Bob Kraft. Being sports fans we all know and appreciate how tough (basically impossible) it is to be a pro. player in this country in the "Big 4" leagues. To do what Brady/The Pats have done the stars have to align sort ta speak. Brady lasts to pick # 199, mostly luck N E got him. Bel. carries 4 QB`s for some time which is now never done. Bledsoe gets smoked playing the J E T S the "Tuck Rule" etc etc etc. But the coach and this player are the same guy in their approach to the game that met at exactly the right time.
Well my 2 cents and pardon the long winded response, combo of coffee/nite shifts and the N E winter. So, Rodgers as THE most talented and Brady as the best over all. On a side note some of my buddies and I love to play the "what if Belichick coached "fill in the blank" team. Try it with G B, Dallas or Pitts, fun discussions.
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Old 01-27-2018, 04:47 PM
steve B steve B is online now
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Originally Posted by frankbmd View Post
Are you referring to Mr. Roger’s neighborhood or Aaron Rodgers? Good grief!!!
Weren't you saying that Aaron Rogers has done amazingly well despite not having a good defense?

I agree with that, but I also think that the defense not being all that good or reliable has contributed. Typically, a team that's out in front by whatever they think a decent margin is will run more. A team that's not comfortable with the lead or that is behind will throw more, or at least throw as much as usual deeper into the game.
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Old 01-27-2018, 04:59 PM
steve B steve B is online now
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Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector View Post
theres winning and then theres WINNING.

people used to argue bradshaw/montana etc cause of a whopping 4 superbowls...versus some passing stat stud with 1 or 0 superbowls

when you are getting to 8 superbowls..possibly 10 ...this type of argument really looks silly now when going against a guy with all those SB appearences

manage the game qbs like Dilfer etc , yeah they will get to a super bowl perhaps..but to get into 8, the QB has to be good..again its not like brady averages 200 yards a game either...his passing stats are up there too..and the counting stats etc..
My friends and I used to have the same sort of debate - Brady or Peyton Manning? Manning was flashier, especially early on, more yards, more TDs. But Brady won more. With us it was a lot more basic than it is here. More like "manning is awesome! he threw for 350" ( or 400 or whatever it was.)
"Brady only threw for 147". Yeah, but the Colts lost and the Pats won, so who's really better?

Brady was a game manager early on, that was the knock against him, that he just killed people with so many 5-10 yard passes and not making to many risky throws or trying to force a play that wasn't there.

One of the non-stat things that would make me put him up there as the best would be that over the 18 years he's changed from a fairly conservative manager to someone that throws down field, to someone very different from most, neither a manager or shooting for long plays, but taking what's left available for him. There aren't many players in any sport that can change styles without a few years of adjustment.
That he's got a coaching staff that adjusts plays and styles to match a players abilities, and ownership that provides stability by not panicking if there's a season that isn't spectacular has made that easier, but how many players do you see who can't adjust when there's a new coach with a different style.
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Old 01-29-2018, 06:14 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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My friends and I used to have the same sort of debate - Brady or Peyton Manning? Manning was flashier, especially early on, more yards, more TDs. But Brady won more. With us it was a lot more basic than it is here. More like "manning is awesome! he threw for 350" ( or 400 or whatever it was.)
"Brady only threw for 147". Yeah, but the Colts lost and the Pats won, so who's really better?

Brady was a game manager early on, that was the knock against him, that he just killed people with so many 5-10 yard passes and not making to many risky throws or trying to force a play that wasn't there.

One of the non-stat things that would make me put him up there as the best would be that over the 18 years he's changed from a fairly conservative manager to someone that throws down field, to someone very different from most, neither a manager or shooting for long plays, but taking what's left available for him. There aren't many players in any sport that can change styles without a few years of adjustment.
That he's got a coaching staff that adjusts plays and styles to match a players abilities, and ownership that provides stability by not panicking if there's a season that isn't spectacular has made that easier, but how many players do you see who can't adjust when there's a new coach with a different style.
right...i also hate the 'more talented' argument for other players... talent is like potential. The goal is to win games. Id take someone that actually goes to superbowls than someone with all the talent in the world that cant.

Bird in the hand is the QB that's been there and done that. The what if game can work for a little bit (what if this guy was on that team ) if the margin is small but with brady its just silly to compare. There are players that that get hurt and never play again after a few years and I'm sure we can do the 'what if' game being that if the never got hurt and played on X team and since they are the most talented now THEY are the best player...not the guy that actually played 18 years and won more championships than anyone else..


there are also gimmick years. ie run and shoot etc but after a yearly adjustment, the stats change. Brady is no gimmick. Who cares if he doesn't have the strongest arm versus this guy or doesn't do this versus that guy.. If you don't play the seasons, you don't get the credt.

if some guy played 5 years and won 5 superbowls and retired and was the most talented ever, i would still put him behind brady because the guy that plays 10 more years plus gets more credit...

basically if i had a franchise, would i want a guy for 5 years with 500 touchdowns and 5 championships or a guy like brady...
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Old 01-29-2018, 10:15 AM
steve B steve B is online now
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The problem with that reasoning is that none of what a player does happens in a vacuum. There's an entire team, plus the coaching staff, plus the office people and owner. Everything they do affects what happens on the field.

Yes, the individual players have to be good or great. And they all have tendencies, but that only goes so far. Farve was a great QB, but had a tendency to try to force plays and that led to a lot of interceptions.
The Giants beat the Pats twice because they had a tendency to be beatable on long plays especially late in the game. Maybe an over focusing on stopping first downs made the secondary beatable?
I was always surprised that teams didn't try long plays more often against them. Happy, but surprised.
Would you blame Brady for those losses? Of course not.

But that's what happens on other teams, success isn't immediate, so someone, either a QB or coach or someone else is picked as the cause and they're out.
Look at the 49ers. Harbaugh was pretty good for three years, then one not so good year and he's out. The next year they were worse - Bring in another coach, worse still. Blame the QB who was actually just about as good as he'd been the year they went to the Superbowl as he was that year when he was 1-10. Bring in still another coach and QB, and lose everything until one really lucky trade. Is Garoppolo that good? Or were Bethard and Hoyer that bad? Or did Garoppolo simply bring a better attitude and process to things. Or maybe the way the other two guys work best isn't what the coach wanted to do.
We'll have to wait and see, but I think Garoppolo is in for some rough times in SF.


Brady is great, but a part of that has to be due to the team and overall system and the ownership that has the patience to give them the stability to take some risks. (How many other coaches would have survived a 4th and short failure handing the ball to Peyton Manning late in a playoff game? How many other owners would have supported that position and carried on like it was business as usual? )
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:15 AM
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Of course it takes a whole team and organization to win consistently. That misses the point, and there are no "buts" qualifying Brady's greatness. Nobody in the history of the game, in my opinion, has more consistently made good use of that 3 or 4 seconds you have after the snap to choose a target and throw than Brady. He has won with and without great receivers, with and without strong running backs. And here he is at age 40!!! coming off an MVP season and going to yet another Super Bowl. Nuff ced.
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