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  #1  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:29 PM
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Default The 'Modern Era' Ballot: Who You Got?

The players listed on the ballot and their WAR:

Lou Whitaker...………………………………………..75.1
Dwight Evans...………………………………………..67.1
Tommy John...………………………………………….62.1
Ted Simmons...………………………………………..50.3
Dale Murphy...………………………………………….46.5
Thurman Munson...………………………………….46.1
Don Mattingly...……………………………………….42.4
Dave Parker...………………………………………….40.1
Steve Garvey...………………………………………..38.1

elected last year:
Baines...…………………………………………………….38.7

and the three Cubans who, IMO, should already be in:

Luis Tiant…………………………………………………….65.6
Minnie Minoso…………………………………………….50.5
Tony Oliva...……………………………………………...43.1

I realize that WAR is not the only measurement used, but it's a convenient starting place (the list had already been put together - so lazy me is just using their 'trade craft')

The ESPN writer had Ted Simmons as the only one with an excellent chance of getting in, but also made comment on Harold Baines.
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  #2  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:46 PM
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All of these guys are in the Hall Of Good. With the people they have put in recently most if not all might go in eventually.
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  #3  
Old 11-08-2019, 01:56 AM
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Marvin Miller is on the ballot as well and his exclusion to this point is a complete joke. The pettiness of executives who sat on the various incarnations of these committees is the only thing that has kept Miller out all these years. His contributions to the game are undeniable and IMHO more significant than those of Bud Selig or Bowie Kuhn. It's a shame he didn't live to see his induction but it's time the Hall erased this black mark on its voting history and elect him. Aside from that, Whitaker and Simmons have the "steam" heading into this election and I don't feel the HOF is significantly lessened with their inclusions.

Edited to add, I would've liked to see some new blood on this ballot. All but 2 of these guys have been examined ad nauseum on past veterans committees and fell short, so unless they are specifically trying to shoehorn a couple of these players in, it's probably time to look more closely at players like Bobby Grich, and a man I was definitely hoping to see get his shot this year, Al Oliver.

Last edited by dgo71; 11-08-2019 at 04:12 AM.
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  #4  
Old 11-08-2019, 09:51 AM
Jstottlemire1 Jstottlemire1 is online now
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I think Munson should be a lock for sure. His career untimely cut short shouldn’t effect his induction. Yankee Captain, ROY, MVP, 7 AS, 3 gold gloves and 2 World Series championships in a abbreviated career. He was in route so I would put him in.
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  #5  
Old 11-09-2019, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstottlemire1 View Post
I think Munson should be a lock for sure. His career untimely cut short shouldn’t effect his induction. Yankee Captain, ROY, MVP, 7 AS, 3 gold gloves and 2 World Series championships in a abbreviated career. He was in route so I would put him in.
Don't forget his great playoff and WS numbers. I think too many people dismiss him because they think his career was too short. Anyone thinking that the hall would be less for putting him in is just flat out wrong.
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  #6  
Old 11-09-2019, 03:11 PM
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I dont think any of those players should be in the HOF

The HOF is showcase of the history of the greatest players of each era.


Joe Jackson
Pete Rose
Bonds
Arod
Schffield
Clemens

Imo all should be in 😳

Yes pete should be banned from the dugout never to return, but that dosnt erase his stats.
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  #7  
Old 11-09-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by EvilKing00 View Post
I dont think any of those players should be in the HOF

The HOF is showcase of the history of the greatest players of each era.


Joe Jackson
Pete Rose
Bonds
Arod
Schffield
Clemens

Imo all should be in ��

Yes pete should be banned from the dugout never to return, but that dosnt erase his stats.

In MY opinion, as long as there are deserving players who DID NOT cheat who aren't in, those bums should NEVER get in.

But, you are entitled to your opinion...but you are, of course, wrong.

.
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  #8  
Old 11-10-2019, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
In MY opinion, as long as there are deserving players who DID NOT cheat who aren't in, those bums should NEVER get in.

But, you are entitled to your opinion...but you are, of course, wrong.

.

There are many players in the HOF who cheated.

Heres the argument for bonds and the rest

https://metsmerizedonline.com/2014/0...-of-fame.html/
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstottlemire1 View Post
I think Munson should be a lock for sure. His career untimely cut short shouldn’t effect his induction. Yankee Captain, ROY, MVP, 7 AS, 3 gold gloves and 2 World Series championships in a abbreviated career. He was in route so I would put him in.
Munson was on the decline, when he died. Yankee Captain...who cares. Rookie of the Year, who cares.

Unfortunately, I just don't think he played long enough. He might have rebounded, but catchers don't usually drop off, and then spring back. Ultimately, I'm on the fence when it comes to him.
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  #10  
Old 11-13-2019, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by EvilKing00 View Post
There are many players in the HOF who cheated.

it's one thing to lower standards for someone like Baines or Mazeroski...it's a whole different ball game...literally, when great players STILL cheat.

barry bonds is someone who had EVERY advantage and STILL chose to cheat! He deserves NOTHING.



'There are many players in the HOF who cheated.' Doesn't mean the standards have to be lowered to let in ALL that do.


The bottom line is that it is a disservice and an insult to all those who played the game without cheating to let all those who didn't get in.


Baseball is just one area of life where standards have been lowered...I find it sickening.
_

Heres the argument for bonds and the rest

https://metsmerizedonline.com/2014/0...-of-fame.html/
=
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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson


MY BIG CONCERNS ABOUT AMERICA:

Internally- We spend too much time assuring our rights without learning the responsibilities that should accompany them.
Externally - No matter how much we claim to take the higher moral ground, we have neither respected nor attempted to understand other cultures.

Last edited by clydepepper; 11-13-2019 at 06:10 PM.
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  #11  
Old 12-08-2019, 10:21 PM
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Default Ted Simmons and Marvin Miller

The Hall has two new members after this committee vote.

Interesting that veteran catcher Simmons was more well regarded than our board seemed to think. 21 seasons of being pretty good can get you in the Hall now.
I liked Ted as a player , and don’t mind that he got voted in, but I don’t recall anything dominant about his game. That skill is usually observed in Hall of Famers.

The 1971 Topps set adds another card moved to the HOF column...
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  #12  
Old 12-09-2019, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by familytoad View Post
The Hall has two new members after this committee vote.

Interesting that veteran catcher Simmons was more well regarded than our board seemed to think. 21 seasons of being pretty good can get you in the Hall now.
I liked Ted as a player , and don’t mind that he got voted in, but I don’t recall anything dominant about his game. That skill is usually observed in Hall of Famers.

The 1971 Topps set adds another card moved to the HOF column...
He was the only catcher in baseball history with a 50 + WAR not in Cooperstown. I've felt he deserved to be in a long time. The guy was a fantastic hitter from a position that just didn't get a lot of offense, especially in the 70s and 80s.

I'm thrilled both Marvin Miller and Simba are in.
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  #13  
Old 12-09-2019, 09:55 AM
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Ted was the best hitting catcher of his era, Bench hit very well in big moments but day-to-day Simba was the man! He now held in high reverence by baseball insiders as the best talent judge in the game. A true gentleman too.
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  #14  
Old 12-09-2019, 02:16 PM
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Comparing Simmons to Bench...interesting...certainly never thought of that.
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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson


MY BIG CONCERNS ABOUT AMERICA:

Internally- We spend too much time assuring our rights without learning the responsibilities that should accompany them.
Externally - No matter how much we claim to take the higher moral ground, we have neither respected nor attempted to understand other cultures.
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  #15  
Old 12-09-2019, 02:33 PM
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Ted Simmons seems like the epitome of having to take someone's word for how good they were. He never finished higher than 6th in MVP voting in any single year over his entire career. Seems like "best hitting catcher of his time" would have a better showing.

Last edited by packs; 12-09-2019 at 02:36 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-09-2019, 03:53 PM
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Ted Simmons seems like the epitome of having to take someone's word for how good they were. He never finished higher than 6th in MVP voting in any single year over his entire career. Seems like "best hitting catcher of his time" would have a better showing.
Even by WAR, Bench is 1 among catchers, Simmons is 10. Let's not get carried away.
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  #17  
Old 12-09-2019, 04:18 PM
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I'm not picking up on the 50 WAR thing either. It seems like that's just a coincidence. Simmons had 50 WAR but it took him 21 years to do that. Munson only played 11 seasons, finished with a WAR of 46 and people think he's not even close to the Hall.
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Old 12-09-2019, 04:21 PM
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I'm not picking up on the 50 WAR thing either. It seems like that's just a coincidence. Simmons had 50 WAR but it took him 21 years to do that. Munson only played 11 seasons, finished with a WAR of 46 and people think he's not even close to the Hall.
Bench had 75. I would say he was the man, not Simmons.
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Old 12-09-2019, 04:28 PM
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I just can't figure it out. Even Simmons' defense was league average. His caught stealing percentage and fielding percentages are both exactly league average. He's got more walks than strike outs and his career on base is still below 350. How is he not only one of the greatest players of all time but also the best hitting catcher of his era?

Last edited by packs; 12-09-2019 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 12-09-2019, 04:48 PM
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I just can't figure it out. Even Simmons' defense was league average. His caught stealing percentage and fielding percentages are both exactly league average. He's got more walks than strike outs and his career on base is still below 350. How is he not only one of the greatest players of all time but also the best hitting catcher of his era?
Carter and Fisk were better too.
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Old 12-09-2019, 05:57 PM
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I just can't figure it out. Even Simmons' defense was league average. His caught stealing percentage and fielding percentages are both exactly league average. He's got more walks than strike outs and his career on base is still below 350. How is he not only one of the greatest players of all time but also the best hitting catcher of his era?


Easy folks...Harold needs company.


.
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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson


MY BIG CONCERNS ABOUT AMERICA:

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  #22  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:45 AM
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I'm old school, and Johnny Bench is one of my all time favorite players...best catcher of all time in my opinion as well. With that said, Bench was a "slugger" more than a hitter. You can take all the new metric WAR this and that, and that's fine, but Simmons was a better "hitter". Simmons hit over .300 seven times and had more BB's than K's. All I can say is that you try catching 1771 games (those are the games he played catcher, not just played) and still have a career .285 avg. Too many people lump catchers with other position players, and that's a shame because it's the toughest position out there...and comparing Simmons with Baines is just wrong on so many levels.
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Old 12-10-2019, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr2686 View Post
I'm old school, and Johnny Bench is one of my all time favorite players...best catcher of all time in my opinion as well. With that said, Bench was a "slugger" more than a hitter. You can take all the new metric WAR this and that, and that's fine, but Simmons was a better "hitter". Simmons hit over .300 seven times and had more BB's than K's. All I can say is that you try catching 1771 games (those are the games he played catcher, not just played) and still have a career .285 avg. Too many people lump catchers with other position players, and that's a shame because it's the toughest position out there...and comparing Simmons with Baines is just wrong on so many levels.
Mike - no slight intended. I was trying to lighten the discussion with a little humor.
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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson


MY BIG CONCERNS ABOUT AMERICA:

Internally- We spend too much time assuring our rights without learning the responsibilities that should accompany them.
Externally - No matter how much we claim to take the higher moral ground, we have neither respected nor attempted to understand other cultures.
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  #24  
Old 12-10-2019, 02:10 PM
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Mike - no slight intended. I was trying to lighten the discussion with a little humor.
Yeah, that's what I figured but I forgot to put a funny emoji at the end of mine. It's all good. It's just that there's a real obvious gorge between the people that want only Babe Ruth/Lou Gehrig etc in the hall, and the people that are more for the best of an era. Obviously there has to be a happy medium...I mean, it is called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of only the freakishly talented.
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Old 12-10-2019, 04:48 PM
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I'm old school, and Johnny Bench is one of my all time favorite players...best catcher of all time in my opinion as well. With that said, Bench was a "slugger" more than a hitter. You can take all the new metric WAR this and that, and that's fine, but Simmons was a better "hitter". Simmons hit over .300 seven times and had more BB's than K's. All I can say is that you try catching 1771 games (those are the games he played catcher, not just played) and still have a career .285 avg. Too many people lump catchers with other position players, and that's a shame because it's the toughest position out there...and comparing Simmons with Baines is just wrong on so many levels.
Bench had an OPS+ of 126, Simmons 118. If you are going strictly by batting average, Munson was better, so was Manny Sanguillen. I am not aware of any metric that says Simmons was the best hitting catcher of his era.
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Old 12-10-2019, 10:59 PM
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Doesn't hitting include power?
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