Opinions on the book "The Card"

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Posted By: David Simon

Just wondering how many people bought and read the book 'The Card'.

Good or bad?

Accurate or inaccurate?

Thoughts...?

ds

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Posted By: jay wolt

David - check the search function, there was a big thread
on the book when it first came out.

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Posted By: David Simon

Would you be so kind as to point to the thread title... did searches before the post, but only found a few single posts... thanks,ds

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Posted By: Tim

http://tinyurl.com/6rg9jk

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Posted By: dan mckee

Great book, extremely accurate.

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Posted By: Paul Carek

Quick, fun read. Worth a look.

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Posted By: leon

I have changed my tune a little bit on "The Card". It has some good info in it....very entertaining especially for collectors. Man, are there some skeletons in a few closets that are close to that card!!

edited typo

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Posted By: Rob Fouch

I work for a newspaper on Long Island (Newsday) and volunteered to write a review of the book shortly after it came out. Here's the review, if you're interested. It ran on June 17, 2007.
Rob


THE CARD: Collectors, Con Men, and the True Story of History's Most Desired Baseball Card, by Michael O'Keeffe and Teri Thompson. Morrow, 245 pp., $24.95.


Michael O'Keeffe and Teri Thompson have written a book on baseball card collecting that will probably annoy a lot of collectors and won't interest non-collectors all that much. So one wonders exactly who the audience is for "The Card. "
But darned if it isn't an interesting read.
"The Card" of the book's title is the most famous - or perhaps infamous - baseball card in the world. Even many non-collectors have a passing familiarity with the card because Wayne Gretzky once owned it. And the odd-looking fellow depicted on the front is Hall of Famer Honus Wagner, who, legend has it, didn't want kids using tobacco and objected to having his image on something inserted into cigarette packs. More cynical types argue it probably had more to do with Wagner wanting more money. But whatever the reason, his cards were pulled from the 1909-11 set produced by the American Tobacco Company, making it exceedingly rare. Only about 50 to 60 are known to exist.
What's special, and ultimately questionable, about The Card is its condition. Wagner cards that look like they've been run over by a truck can still sell for $100,000. But The Card is immaculate, with sharp corners, blazing color and a clean front and back. How could a card that old and that rare survive in such pristine condition?
The book's premise is that this one had a little help.
Rumors have swirled in collecting circles for years that the Wagner was cut from a sheet decades after it left the factory. You may ask, "So what? " But that's a huge no-no in the hobby. Cards were disposable, and examples that have survived in top condition, escaping the grubby fingers of young boys, wartime paper drives, spring-cleaning moms, fires and the like, are highly prized. So cutting a card from a sheet or altering it to improve condition is akin to cheating and would significantly devalue a card.
The book's clear-cut villain is Bill Mastro, who runs Mastro Auctions, an enormously successful sports collectible auction house. He "discovered" the card in 1986 in a sports memorabilia shop in Hicksville. Where the card came from and what happened to it after Mastro paid a then unheard-of sum of $25,000 remains shrouded in mystery.
O'Keeffe and Thompson, a reporter and editor for the Daily News respectively, build a strong circumstantial case that the card was altered along the way, with quotes from many of the hobby's biggest players.
"Josh Evans, Bill Mastro's long-standing rival, said Mastro told him several times that he had trimmed the card to make it the best card in the history of the hobby. 'The first time he said it, was at a show after it sold for $110,000 to [prominent collector Jim] Copeland,' Evans remembered. 'I said, "How could you trim a card like that? " He said, "What's wrong with that? It was oversized. " I said, "It doesn't matter. You still have to tell the people who bought it. " It was always an interesting topic of conversation. '"
But there's no smoking gun - or Exacto knife, as it were. Mastro has steadfastly denied claims of trimming, and Professional Sports Authenticators, a card-grading company, declared the Wagner authentic and unaltered and graded it an 8 out of a possible 10. (The book also raises serious questions about the accuracy of the grading. )
Supposedly, photos exist of the Wagner in its pre-cut state, but O'Keeffe and Thompson were unable to get their hands on one.
The book follows The Card as it passes from one rich collector to another, selling for more each time and culminating with the recent $2.3-million sale.
The authors seem to take pleasure in pointing out the ridiculous sums paid for questionable cards and memorabilia, which undoubtedly will raise the ire of collectors. (I must admit, I'm one of them. ) It's like being told your sister's homely. You might be perfectly aware of her warts, but you don't want someone outside the family pointing them out.
Collectors know there's fraud in the hobby. Go on eBay and you'll find listing after listing of cards supposedly found in an attic, including no shortage of "real" Wagners. The authors haven't exactly broken new ground in pointing out the hobby's warts.
Nonetheless, "The Card" is a compelling tale. O'Keeffe and Thompson nicely illustrate the obsessive nature of collectors while sprinkling in the history of players who spawned the obsession. At this point in the story, The Card has transcended the hobby - so much so that even if someone does prove it was altered, it probably won't matter.
Next time The Card comes up for auction, old Honus very well might be the first baseball player on a $3-million card.

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Posted By: david Poses

I just finished reading "The Card." I know the information contained therein is extremely touchy. I've followed all the threads on the board and never contributed my own opinion, but for a long time, I've had a tough time believing that a small piece of cardboard, which was by all accounts worthless when it appeared 100 years ago, managed to survive so well when important family heirlooms (photos, letters, army cards, report cards post cards, whatever. PAPER), that DID have value (not monetary value, but value nevertheless) withered, while stored in presumably the same vessels these (at the time "worthless") (now valuable) "blazer" cards were stored in.

The more I think about it, the harder it is for me to fathom that anything from 1909 can look as good as so many baseball cards look. Before grading, I hardly ever encountered such pristine examples of so many of the cards I see today. I do not claim to be an expert, but as a litmus test, I assume that the pristine T206s that survived were put in the same storage vessel as the T210s and anything else somebody decided to save back then. Fine, there weren't any stars in the t210 set, and the postcard my grandfather sent to my grandmother in 1924 has no value on the open market, but that doesn't mean either were stored in a lesser-quality shoebox with a mechanism that chips paper off of corners, etc.

My question is this: What is the retort to the “mass restoration conspiracy” argument? Does anyone know anybody who is related to the person who pulled a PSA 10 out of the book/box where it hid for 90 years?

As someone who rarely posts, i’d hate to come off as “the guy nobody knows who shows up and unloads this crazy crap.” But as a curious person relatively new to the hobby, its a dialogue I’m interesting in having.

None of this changes the focus of my collection or my want to expand it. The last thing I want to do is make waves. I love this hobby and while in any hobby there will always be a rift between the purists and the investors, I just want to understand, or hear some evidence which indicates that the entire high-end market is not full of s**t.

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Posted By: leon

IMO- There are very rare instances of cards surviving in pristine condition. When they have the provenance to back them up then they are really great. I feel many of the top graded cards in the hobby didn't used to be as high of a grade; pre-holder. That is my personal opinion. I don't own this anymore but the provenance was really good and made a lot of sense when I bought it (them) from REA.....It now resides in the collection of an absolute expert in the hobby that knows more about grading than almost anyone....though I can't divulge the name....or I would have to kill ya' ....

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Posted By: david Poses

I wonder if provenance will start to play a bigger part in high-grade high-end sales. whether the controversy is founded in reality or conspiracy, good provenance will put collectors' minds at ease, just as it does in the art world where restoration is lauded...

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Posted By: leon

I believe it (provenance) will absolutely become more important as the hobby progresses.

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Posted By: barrysloate

David- whether or not you are new to the board (and we were all new at one time) you bring up many excellent points, as well as some provocative topics. When I entered the hobby in the early 1980's there were some high grade cards but not nearly as many as you see today. There's no question this raises many reg flags.

Also there is no question that skilled paper conservators can do extremely high quality work that is difficult to detect. It would take a fairly thorough examination of a card to uncover repairs, and some of the grading services are clearly overburdened with submissions and don't have the time to spend with each card. As such, I can't help but imagine how many altered cards currently reside in holders.

And provenance is an extremely important part of collecting; unfortunately, not enough is known about the majority of cards that trade for large dollar amounts.

Something tells me that in the next year or so there are going to be some major revelations in this hobby. Think I'll stick around to find out.

And Rob- I enjoyed your review- well written.

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Posted By: Steve

I can see paper items from 100 years ago remaining in mint condition.

That I have no problem with accepting, it is possible.


As for the card I have no opinion.

Steve

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Posted By: boxingcardman

You raise some good points that have been explored in the past at various times. One of the worst issues we have as hobbyists when dealing with "pristine" cards is lack of provenance. "The Card" is a perfect example of that. No one is ever going to get to a true conclusion as to whether The Card is the remainder of a larger card or a sheet because the people who know aren't going to talk and we have no way of tracing its provenance.

What I will say about high grade cards is this: it is a mixed bag. I have been asked into a few "finds" of prewar cards as a buyer or advisor. By "find" I mean discovered outside the hobby with either an original owner's successors or in a second-hand location where the value of the item (hence the quality of the item) is not appreciated and is not likely to result in fraudulent alterations of the cards. Some people here have found a lot more; others none as of yet. The T card finds I've had (two) have yielded cards ranging from poor to ex-mt. The postwar card "finds" I've been involved with have involved cards anywhere from 30-50 years old and have yielded cards ranging into true mint condition (believe me, I've purchased quite a few raw cards from original collections that have found their ways into 7-8-9 slabs, some of which I happily still own). I've also acquired paper collectibles from sources in the entertainment field that have yielded materials (tickets to Hollywood events, primarily) ranging from poor to mint condition for very old materials. Certainly, it is possible for finds to yield top condition cards and early paper collectibles. My personal experience and observation from doing this since the 1970s is that with prewar cards the finds are nearly always of midgrade materials with a smattering of higher grade stuff. For postwar cards (1948-up) finding 7-8-9-10 condition cards is not a rare event.

My other view on the issue, which echoes those of others here, is that prior to the 1990s there was nowhere near as much ultra high grade prewar material out there. I am firmly of the belief that a lot, not all but a lot, of the prewar ultra high grade cards we see have been enhanced, whether that is something as benign as cleaning or as serious as trimming. I am also of the belief that as grading services have evolved, they have learned, but that part of the learning curve has been the slabbing of a great many cards that should never have been slabbed and that, consequently, there are many altered cards in high grade slabs. I sold back to SGC a T206 Waddell that had slipped into an ex-mt slab with trimming; you could tell from the flip that it was an older grade of theirs.

Now The Card, to me, is a special instance. As I recall from the book, Bill Hughes, who was one of the graders at PSA who examined it raw, believed that it was in fact cut down from a larger item but agreed to the 8 anyway because it would have been a shame to trash such a magnificent card. Had PSA done an "A" at time, we might have seen an "A"; we will never know. What we can say for certain about the card is that its provenance is twisted and suspect, and is in need of clarification which we may still receive at the end of a Federal subpoena.

By no means am I claiming that every card in a top slab is bad, but I do believe that extreme caution needs to be exercised in dealing with these cards because there are bad ones out there.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Robert B

I am new to the boards, but have been a collector
since the late '70's.
Although my experience with T206's is limited,
oddly enough in my early days most of what I saw
would grade out around PSA5-6 today.
That being said, I've been apart of two collections
that were "boxed" away. I picked up a box
that contained 1968 Topps (yuk) Baseball
that were put away shortly after being opened in '68.
And I saw first hand a box of '48 Leaf baseball
opened. Now with all that, it was still hard
to find a card that would grade out as a 8/9/10.

The 68 Topps were put away immediately after
they were opened, and even though they seem secure
in the box there were alot of dings, nicks on the cards.
Not all but on most of them. Enough to keep them from
a mint/gem mint grade.

Same with the 48 Leafs, the packs
were in excellent shape but the cards probably would
have graded out 7-8. In both cases the cards were
in the families who originally bought them so they
were moved around.

Now my point is, I see more
high grade cards than ever before. It amazes
me to see cards over 100 yrs
that are high grade. Sure it can happen
but I can't imagine the circumstances on how
a card that old can survive without anything
happening to it.

By the way, I enjoyed that book very much.


Robert B

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I bought a big collection of 1970 basketball, football and hockey cards from the original owner who'd opened them as a kid. He came to me with the cards the original tall boy basketball display boxes (wish I still had them; a casualty of the 1994 Northridge Earthquake, unfortunately. Squashed flat under a collapsed shelf). The cards had been sitting in an attic for 22 years at his parents' house. The cards were mostly 7-8 quality owing to normal centering and yielded some 9's too. I also purchased a good sized 1952-1954 Topps collection that had been sitting with the original owner for about 45 years. His cards yielded mostly 7s with some 6s, 8s and a few 9s.

Here's the kicker: There were also a good number of cards with hairline creases that I did not buy from that 1950s seller, including some gorgeous 1952 Topps cards, because he wanted half of high Beckett (remember that term?) for them. I now know that a halfway decent doctor can take out those creases well enough to get them past PSA; just check out the altered cards link "upstairs" for some spine-chilling info. It would not surprise me a bit if some enterprising person of low character purchased those cards, removed the creases, and got them slabbed, because they were otherwise just as nice as the 7-8-9 cards I bought. I think that is what accounts for the number of high grade cards we see versus what we all remember from 25-30 years ago. 30 years ago we saw a lot more flawed cards due to a minuscule removable flaw, a flaw that wasn't worth the time and trouble to address then but that an enterprising fraudster now sees a huge financial incentive to remedy. Hang around this hobby long enough and you will hear rumors of dealers who make their money cleaning up cards, playing crack-out roulette, etc. Some are even dum [sic] enough to admit they do it. There is simply too much money to be had. I pity the collectors who are naive enough to simply assume that if it is in a slab it must be good; it might (stress the "might" aspect since getting satisfaction isn't a sure thing) be subject to a buy-back when the grader is called out, but it is by no means good just because it is in a slab. As far as who is "enhancing" these high end cards, I hope we see some names named a la the Marino crew on the autograph side when the Feds get into high gear.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

An interesting question is what, if anything, will happen next to these altered cards that found themselves in graded slabs? With many of them will it ever be possible to know upon re-examination whether they were altered? If the answer is no, then presumably all high grade cards without provenance will, as the market absorbs this information, sell at a discount, perhaps even substantial discount, to their provenanced counterparts.

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Posted By: Dave S

Isn't there a relative level of sophistication issue as well? How many people outside this board and a few others have a discerning eye or would even know the difference?

In the comicbook space, pedigree information has been a part of their holder for sometime and I've noticed that the same book in the same grade with the same eye appeal, will always go for more than the non-pedigree which gives credence to the the arugment... however that doesn't necessarily make it better.

ds

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Posted By: david Poses

Corey, I could see that happening, but I can also see how it would be close to impossible. Again, I am a relative newcomer to this hobby but have certainly studied up and am extremely well versed in other markets where provenance is everything.

This is an interesting situation because nobody cares about provenance about a common $20 T206 with rounded corners, and those tend to be the cards with some notion of provenance (how many razor sharp-edged cards have you seen with someone's name stamped on the back?)

So if it is the high-grade, high-end cards that have the most to gain by provenance gaining importance, it is those very same cards that have the most to lose...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Corey makes a great point, and given that a rare high grade card with solid provenance will sell for a premium, conversely a card with a questionable or unknown background may sell for a discount.

Whether it all shakes out that way is uncertain; but what I feel pretty sure about is that we are going to see some major changes in the way cards are perceived in the near future. Once the greater hobby realizes the extent of problem cards that have been slabbed, there will be a major shift in the marketplace.

Cards perceived as problem free will continue to be in great demand, and the others will sell at deep discounts. What the hobby needs is more information, and I predict that is forthcoming.

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Posted By: Rob L

Wow, looks like the heat is on Mastro now (amazing, card doctoring also?)

Feds' memorabilia case heating up

BY MICHAEL O'KEEFFE
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Monday, September 8th 2008, 9:20 PM

Several sports memorabilia officials have testified in recent weeks before a grand jury in Chicago that is investigating Mastro Auctions and fraud in the collectibles business.

Additional hobby insiders are also scheduled to testify before the grand jury, sources said, while others have been asked to provide records and other documents.

"There has been a parade of people going to the grand jury," said a source close to the case. "The feds are closing in."

The grand jury deliberations are part of an investigation into memorabilia fraud initiated last year by the Chicago division of the FBI, whose "Operation Foul Ball" smashed a multistate autograph forgery ring in the 1990s.

Although the target of the investigation is Illinois-based Mastro Auctions, sports memorabilia's largest auction house, other businesses and individuals may be involved.

Some of the hobby insiders who received subpoenas to appear before the grand jury are former Mastro Auctions employees. "The FBI told me I am not a target, but they want to talk to me," said one former Mastro worker.
Mastro Auctions president Doug Allen did not return a call for comment.
As the Daily News first reported, investigators from the FBI and the United Postal Service crashed the National Sports Collectors Convention in Rosemont, Ill., in August, delivering subpoenas to industry executives and questioning memorabilia companies' employees.

The investigation of Mastro Auctions has focused on shill bidding, card doctoring and other allegations of fraud.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba.../08/2008-09-08

Rob L

http://www.freewebs.com/loefflerrd/

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Posted By: jdrum

Although I own several high grade pre-war cards, some of which I have had slabbed myself; I have come to regard high grade specimens with the same jaundiced eye as I do any career home run totals amassed after 1990. In other words, I ain't buyin' it.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

One way a 100 year old card can remain in near pristine condition is if the original collector pasted them into a scrapbook as soon as he got them, the card retains its corners and once soaked from the page (assuming they used the old water based paste) the cards are again almost perfect.
-Rhett

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Posted By: JimB

We know there are plenty of legitimate high-grade vintage cards out there. Everybody seems to know of finds that have yielded them. The "Southern Find" of T206s is just one of the more famous of many such finds. I have no doubt that cards with some degree of alteration at times make it into higher grade holders than they otherwise would have gotten, but the suspicion that a large percentage of them are altered is probably not accurate and does not do the hobby much good.

I think we all see many more than we did twenty years ago because communication avenues in the hobby are so much greater today, both due to the internet and the high-profile major auction houses. How many hobbyists who have been around more than 20 years saw two Just So cards and two Four Base Hits cards all offered within a couple months of each other, as is currently the case? Does it mean these cards are not real? No, it means the offerings are much more widely visible today than they were twenty years ago. Before jumping to conclusions based on faulty reasoning, I think it would be wise to think this all through a bit. Casting suspicion on legitimate cards does not benefit anyone.

If it were so easy to manipulate cards into high grades and get them slabbed, the relative populations of high-grade cards would not be so low seventeen years and ten million+ cards into third party grading.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- it would be impossible to know the number of bad cards that may be holdered, and I agree that anyone who throws out a percentage is just guessing, with no proof whatsoever.

But to look at this from a different perspective, I can say with confidence that a skilled paper conservator can perform such sophisticated work on a baseball card that it would be extremely difficult to detect. And you can be certain that where there is big money to be made, cards will continue to be worked on and improved.

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Posted By: jdrum

Jim,
You make some good points and certainly it is not the case that all high grade (7-up to me) cards have been altered. However, I think it would be very naive to think with the money involved that a significant portion are not questionable. I have no idea what the percentage is. I hate to be so cynical. I have collected over 20 years and have made a number of small finds myself, some of which have yielded a high grade card or to (7's) when graded.

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Posted By: Dave S

Why not just steer clear of high grade examples...

Is it the card people are after or the condition?

And why do you guys think high grade examples are so much more desireable?

Are they really worth paying the multiples?

ds

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Posted By: Larry Pliss

Fun book. Read it cover to cover in one sitting.

All perceptions of reality are subjective.

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Posted By: tfever

Does anyone still has the "The Card" book that I can borrow? I am being cheap and don't want to pay $20 for the book.

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Posted By: Dustan Hedlin

Good timing for this thread. This book was just given to me as a gift last week, and it has now moved to the top of the stack of books I need to read.

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Posted By: DS

$10. for softcover and has updates from the hardcover version...