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  #51  
Old 06-15-2007, 10:59 PM
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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Well, I made one assumption that was wrong. I thought you were talking of postcard collecting in general. I didn't know you were talking of specialized postcard collecting. You may be right that there were less than 200 people who specifically collected baseball postcards.

I apologize for my misunderstanding, but you come across as very touchy quite often. I don't see anything in either my post or JK's that could be taken as a personal affront to you.

Relax....it's just cardboard.

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  #52  
Old 06-15-2007, 11:21 PM
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Posted By: JK

Daniel,

What in my post is a personal attack? That I dont get. As for assumptions, well, I think most of my points are backed up by circumstantial evidence at a minimum.

Finally, even assuming there were only 200 mega pc collectors back in the day, what makes you so certain there were that many more collectors of T, E, M, W, etc. cards? In other words, even if you buy the assumption of very few pc collectors, you have to make another assumption to reach your conclusion - namely that there where significantly more collectors of traditional cards (which, at the time, were in their infancy and were not traditional in any sense).

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  #53  
Old 06-15-2007, 11:33 PM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

I wasn't being touchy, as I saw it neither of you engaged me in what I wrote but instead just poo poo'd it. My thoughts on the issue were crap because they were assumptions, but in the end that's about all you have to give yourselves.

And with regards to T's and Candy, and all the other give-aways, I think the 'give away' part of it would make it comfortably more likely to be collected. While you think the assumption that postcards had to be paid for is some sort of leap of imagination, I think it the most likely scenario. This was a medium you didn't have to give away, people actually needed it to get by in general life. Telephones were available to very few, and keeping contact with friends and relatives was largely by hand written form. Why would you give away something that people will pay good money for because they actually NEED it?

Still, I will gladly listen respectfully if you have actual historical information you could share.


Daniel

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  #54  
Old 06-16-2007, 12:03 AM
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Posted By: JK

sporting news pcs - giveaways.

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  #55  
Old 06-16-2007, 12:57 AM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

The official figures from the U.S. Post Office for their fiscal year ending June 30, 1908, cite 677,777,798 postcards mailed. At that time the total population of the United States was 88,700,000.

I would guess that at nearly 8 postcards per person, people very likely bought postcards in bunches at an opportune time - then used them as the occasion arose. It seems likely that if you bought 8 but weren't super concientious about keeping up correspondence with the relatives, two or three cards might survive each year free of penmanship. Adding further to the survior rate of these unblemished pc's is the scenario that sports related PC's tended to focus on players and teams of particular years and their accomplishments. Thus, It might seem silly if you didn't get around to posting the 1908 Cubbies winning the championship in the correlating year, you'd just keep it rather than send it on to someone for whom the meaning might be lost by the non-recent nature of the subject.....



Daniel

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  #56  
Old 06-16-2007, 03:34 AM
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Posted By: dan kravitz

If the theory is that a card needs to be used as advertising ... No different than a 1912 Garter, also used to sell clothing. Where do you draw the line? Postcards are 100% baseball cards! Expand your mind.


\

From REA




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  #57  
Old 06-16-2007, 08:26 AM
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Posted By: JK

Daniel,

A little research on the web and I found the full paragraph that your numbers came from. The came from a website discussing the history of postcards and under the subheading "Undivided Back Era, December 24, 1901 - March 1, 1907". The particular paragraph states:

"At the end of this period in time, the hobby of collecting postcards became THE GREATEST COLLECTIBLE HOBBY THAT THE WORLD HAD EVER KNOWN. The official figures from the US Post Office for their fiscal year ending June 30, 1908, cite 677,777,798 postcards mailed. At that time the total population of the United States was only 88,700,000!" (emphasis added).

http://www.emotionscards.com/museum/historyofpostcards.htm


Why is it that you chose to leave out the collecting part of the paragraph? Regardless, how is it that collecting postcards could be the greatest collectible hobby in the world at the time, but you refuse to believe that they were specifically purchased to be collected?

Edited several times to try and fix the link.

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  #58  
Old 06-16-2007, 09:18 AM
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Posted By: Glenn

Would the USPS deliver an Exhibit card if I stamped and addressed it?

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  #59  
Old 06-16-2007, 10:00 AM
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Posted By: Chad

My friends and I used to use flotsam like pop tart box sides and so on as postcards.

--Chad

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  #60  
Old 06-16-2007, 10:09 AM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

because in both that specific article and every other I researched on the web, the suggestion is that people 'collected' them through the very process by which they were intended. That is, they were mailed to friends and family who kept the items as keepsakes for what I am sure is very many reasons, and this is what is meant by the term collecting at the time. No doubt the aesthetics and boom in sending postcards created a 'fad' interest for a number of years (referred to as the golden years of postcards) where people the world over kept and collected the items in scrapbooks and other mediums, memories of travels taken and new friends or family made, a short and filable "movie 8" of its time.

I have yet to read nary a sentence that describes people collecting postcards of the time as we understand collecting today. That is, buying the postcards themselves purely for the intent of creating a collection, based on specific areas of interest, and not for the purpose of sending greetings on beautifully rendered artworks to friends which was the primary intent and vehicle of the item.

No doubt some indeed were pure collectors (I read of a Jewish collector who amassed postcards with specific religious themes), but I would argue nearly all were postcard collectors then much as they are today, and that postcards even with sporting interests were viewed as such - and not baseball cards to be collected by children and idle men.

Further reading also makes an interesting point regarding blank baseball postcards.
"On December 24th, 1901, the U.S. Government allowed the use of the words "Post Card" or "Postcard" to be printed on the undivided back of privately printed cards and allowed publishers to drop the authorization inscription previously required by law. Writing was still only allowed on the front of picture side of the card but right at this time, other countries began to permit the use of a divided back, allowing the front to be primarily for the picture or artwork and the back left for the address and any message. England was the first to allow divided back cards in 1902, France followed in 1904, Germany in 1905 and finally the United States in 1907. These changes brought in the "Golden Age" of postcards as millions were sold and used."
The reason I think this date interesting is that quite a number of the postcard issues in our hobby appear dated to the 1907-09 period, and may well have been prepared to take advantage of the upcoming relent on messages printed on the back of the card. Because of the timing, it seems quite possible some people simply didn't jump on the bandwagon straight away or were unaware of the new govt. tolerances and decided they couldn't pen anything of worth across these often darkened black and white baseball images we find on many period baseball themed postcards. Or maybe they just liked them too much and kept them for the memory invoked.
And those Rose Co. cards, well, they were just too damn beautiful to butcher with fountain ink!
Again, for me this is very different to the active pursuit of sets of cards that are focus specific, finite in number per the issue, 'checklistable' at the time in some manner or other so that individual examples can be chased,
and is part of a longer (many years as opposed to a summer interest with the dashing Mathewson or Cubs immortalized in poem) penchant that is fuelled by manufacturers producing issue after issue, year after year, to sate the collector interest.

I haven't and am not interested in hiding anything in this discussion JK, I've done my share of reading on the subject and come to my own set of understandings - and am equally pleased to think on and incorporate other ideas that are shared openly and generously by others.

That's all I'd ask, but seemingly you are itching more for argument and one upmanship than real discussion that can arise from this post.
A shame as far as I see it.


Sincerely
Daniel

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  #61  
Old 06-16-2007, 11:55 AM
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Posted By: JK

Im not itching for an argument or one upsmanship. What you seem to continually overlook is that most of the baseball pcs do not seem to have come from a postcard company that was looking to sell them for profit. Most seem to have been produced by companies looking for a way to advertise something - just like tobacco and caramel cards. There is no reason to beleive that just because those companies took two stabs at making their advertising desireable (pc and baseball) people didnt collect them as sets. Again, I point to the Sporting News PCs as a primary example that you have yet to address.

That's it for me on this thread. So please have the last word, I promise not to argue or one up you any more.

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  #62  
Old 06-16-2007, 12:04 PM
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Posted By: Joe D.

they're real, and they're spectacular.





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