Rea

[Teamgluck]

What an unbelievably high quality depth of signatures in this auction from Josh Gibson, to Vic Willis to Billy Hamilton.

Good luck to you all!

[Klrdds]

I have already placed bids on multiple items with the knowledge that I will probably not win any. But it is always fun.
Good Luck to all!!!

[theshleps]

I always get outbid on REA too. Do any of you do well at bidding REA or are there some deep pocket folks who aren't on this site other than K.O.?

[Klrdds]

I believe that there are many deep pockets bidding in REA. This site as great as it is is just a small portion of the collectibles population. There are many collectors bidding and buying who are not aware of this site.

[tazdmb]

From some reason, REA brings in higher realized prices the any other auction house I know of on similar items. EG-They had a "normal" Cobb check that Richard/Jim/Heritage would sell for $700-$800 go for $1,300.

Plus the quality of consignment is almost always A+.

I put in ten minimum bids in when it first in, and don't expect to win any, but as Kevin alluded to-it is fun just to be in the game.

[Klrdds]

I agree with Taz . No matter what your opinion of Rob Lifson may or may not be he has worked hard over the years to become in my opinion the foremost AH for consistently( note I said consistently) presenting quality, rare, and unique vintage cards, autographs , and memorabilia. And his prices realized reflect that also, and I believe his consigned believe it as well.

[mighty bombjack]

This auction is just ridiculous. I've never seen anything like that scorecard in lot 18.

[Klrdds]

LOt#18 is an interesting lot for sure.
Let us consider this for a moment, and I am not being a naysayer or a proponent of the lot, just trying to express an opinion on it.
Is this lot really any different from the photographic album lots with the Joe Jackson, Christy Mathewson, John McGraw , etc autographed photos that was in Heritage Auctions a short while back? I mean we have an amazing story of the scorecard's history of being signed 80+ years ago for the great grandfather who had great passion for this game and the Giants especially; of it being unknown since being put up for 60 + years in a box and suddenly found in a box in miraculous condition in a house a few years later. I would think a true baseball fan would have saved more than this 1 scorecard, however I may be wrong about that. It was discovered in approximately 1989 and where has it been for these past 26 years, in that same box? Also besides the story you have 3 of the rarest HoFers together on this sheet along with a few others. Plus we have a cert from a TPA with a questionable history on certing autos. especially those of the rarer nature. Is this too good to be true? Additionally the signatures seem a little too neatly packaged and well executed in perfect straight lines and perfect ink. Doesn't this story seem to parallell the HA auction story a bit , and doesn't it ring familiar with what we hear a lot in this hobby?
Now granted these players are not as popular as Joe Jackson is in the overall baseball autograph market and their is no myth or iconic or pop culture status for them either, as it is for Joe Jackson. However, I would bet you that there are more Joe Jackson autos out there in the hobby than the total autographs out there for McGinnity , Welch and Rusie, and Gore all combined.
Yet this amazing find, whether good or bad, will not get a fraction of the comments that the HA Joe Jackson did.
The reasons are we have fewer samples of those 3 to compare to for authenticity compared to Joe Jackson, and the selling price will be nowhere near what the Jackson photo was, and fewer people will be in the market for this piece compared to the Jackson photo. On the otherhand is this piece real since there are far fewer forgeries in the market for these 3 players combined than totally for Joe Jackson, and Mathewson(since he was in that HA offering)? If this were the Joe Jackson piece we would have 50 posts and opinions about this lot by now.
This lot poses a problem for me at this time for those reasons. I will need time to decide what I will do or not do on this lot .It is interesting that most autograph lots already have bids , but this one as of my posting does not, so I wonder if others have the same concerns as I.

[tazdmb]

I will wait for Peter Nash to finish his investigation

I think one difference between this and the Heritage lot was that there was talk that perhaps someone, perhaps the photographer, innocently secretarial signed those photos. With this lot it is either authentic or a clear forgery for malicious purposes.

[RichardSimon]

I have no opinion on Lot 18 as I have never had the chance to examine any of those autographs in person.
However Lot 20 the Negro League Satchel Paige contract made me take a second look.
Satchel signed his name Satchell on the contract and the handwritten receipt. This despite his name being typed correctly below the signature line. My belief has been that those signatures with the double letter "l" were ghost signed by his son.
Any thoughts?

[jad22]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I have no opinion on Lot 18 as I have never had the chance to examine any of those autographs in person.
However Lot 20 the Negro League Satchel Paige contract made me take a second look.
Satchel signed his name Satchell on the contract and the handwritten receipt. This despite his name being typed correctly below the signature line. My belief has been that those signatures with the double letter "l" were ghost signed by his son.
Any thoughts?

I thought all the "ll" signatures were considered secretarial according to Keurajian's book.

[theshleps]

When you look in Rons book the ll signature of Paige is very different then the legit ones. I have seen ll signature that look identical to the real ones except for the ll that I consider legit.

[Klrdds]

I studied the "ll" variation on Paige several years ago before I purchased my "ll" version signature. Photos are listed below and as you can see this is a mortgage deed from 1950 and is 4 pages and it is a legal document and therefore is not a forgery. On the typed name page it is Satchell and it is signed Satchell very clearly. Paige used the double l version until the early 1950s and for an unknown reason he dropped the double l for a single l version. No explanation was ever given why.
The contract on Lot 20 was the correct spelling of his name as a white person probably typing this contract would do and not realizing the Negro League spelling of his name as well as Paige's own spelling of it.
When he got into the Hall of Fame and his mail increased he would sign some things and have a ghost signer sign others..no pattern ever existed as to who signed what. When he signed after his election he signed Satchel with 1 L but for some unknown reason the ghost signer almost always signed Satchell with 2 Ls and in a form that in no way resembled real Paige autographs.
So if you want the double L version it should be from 1953 and earlier.
Ron's book does a bad job explaining this key and important variation in Paige's signature.
Keating"s Autograph Guide to Negro Leagues does a good job of explaining this variation.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by Klrdds

I studied the "ll" variation on Paige several years ago before I purchased my "ll" version signature. Photos are listed below and as you can see this is a mortgage deed from 1950 and is 4 pages and it is a legal document and therefore is not a forgery. On the typed name page it is Satchell and it is signed Satchell very clearly. Paige used the double l version until the early 1950s and for an unknown reason he dropped the double l for a single l version. No explanation was ever given why.
The contract on Lot 20 was the correct spelling of his name as a white person probably typing this contract would do and not realizing the Negro League spelling of his name as well as Paige's own spelling of it.
When he got into the Hall of Fame and his mail increased he would sign some things and have a ghost signer sign others..no pattern ever existed as to who signed what. When he signed after his election he signed Satchel with 1 L but for some unknown reason the ghost signer almost always signed Satchell with 2 Ls and in a form that in no way resembled real Paige autographs.
So if you want the double L version it should be from 1953 and earlier.
Ron's book does a bad job explaining this key and important variation in Paige's signature.
Keating"s Autograph Guide to Negro Leagues does a good job of explaining this variation.

Good information.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by jad22

Good information.

+1

[Klrdds]

I am glad that I could help

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by jad22

Good information.

+1 Thanks for the detailed info on this Kevin.
Love the Satchel Paige deed, BTW!

Here is my Satchel Paige vintage signed luggage tag from his days in the Negro Leagues which exhibits the "ll" variation of his signature.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Klrdds

LOt#18 is an interesting lot for sure.
Let us consider this for a moment, and I am not being a naysayer or a proponent of the lot, just trying to express an opinion on it.
Is this lot really any different from the photographic album lots with the Joe Jackson, Christy Mathewson, John McGraw , etc autographed photos that was in Heritage Auctions a short while back? I mean we have an amazing story of the scorecard's history of being signed 80+ years ago for the great grandfather who had great passion for this game and the Giants especially; of it being unknown since being put up for 60 + years in a box and suddenly found in a box in miraculous condition in a house a few years later. I would think a true baseball fan would have saved more than this 1 scorecard, however I may be wrong about that. It was discovered in approximately 1989 and where has it been for these past 26 years, in that same box? Also besides the story you have 3 of the rarest HoFers together on this sheet along with a few others. Plus we have a cert from a TPA with a questionable history on certing autos. especially those of the rarer nature. Is this too good to be true? Additionally the signatures seem a little too neatly packaged and well executed in perfect straight lines and perfect ink. Doesn't this story seem to parallell the HA auction story a bit , and doesn't it ring familiar with what we hear a lot in this hobby?
Now granted these players are not as popular as Joe Jackson is in the overall baseball autograph market and their is no myth or iconic or pop culture status for them either, as it is for Joe Jackson. However, I would bet you that there are more Joe Jackson autos out there in the hobby than the total autographs out there for McGinnity , Welch and Rusie, and Gore all combined.
Yet this amazing find, whether good or bad, will not get a fraction of the comments that the HA Joe Jackson did.
The reasons are we have fewer samples of those 3 to compare to for authenticity compared to Joe Jackson, and the selling price will be nowhere near what the Jackson photo was, and fewer people will be in the market for this piece compared to the Jackson photo. On the otherhand is this piece real since there are far fewer forgeries in the market for these 3 players combined than totally for Joe Jackson, and Mathewson(since he was in that HA offering)? If this were the Joe Jackson piece we would have 50 posts and opinions about this lot by now.
This lot poses a problem for me at this time for those reasons. I will need time to decide what I will do or not do on this lot .It is interesting that most autograph lots already have bids , but this one as of my posting does not, so I wonder if others have the same concerns as I.

I agree with you here. I am not looking into the autos deeply because I cant afford this item, but I think it may fall into the "too good to be true" column.