NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-10-2015, 08:38 AM
sago sago is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 208
Default Ty Cobb - Not a Cheating Bigot or Dirty Player - new biography

http://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/book...wkN/story.html

Sounds like he has been misjudged on several fronts.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-10-2015, 09:11 AM
4815162342's Avatar
4815162342 4815162342 is offline
Daryl
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,216
Default Ty Cobb - Not a Cheating Bigot or Dirty Player - new biography

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1431270759.541892.jpg
I guess he was right.

Last edited by 4815162342; 05-10-2015 at 09:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-10-2015, 03:08 PM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is offline
Hank Thomas
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,494
Default

You can read what those who played with and against him had to say about him long after he is gone and they are now old men with nothing to prove or hide in "The Glory of Their Times." Even better is to hear it directly from them on the audio edition. In general, Cobb was not well liked at all by his contemporaries, got into a lot of fights on and off the field, and had some old-fashioned racial ideas--"Still fighting the Civil War" is how Sam Crawford put it. However, to a man they also defend his base-running as hard-nosed and aggressive, not cheating or dirty.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-10-2015, 03:51 PM
byrone byrone is offline
Brian Macdonald
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Prince Edward Island
Posts: 331
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
You can read what those who played with and against him had to say about him long after he is gone and they are now old men with nothing to prove or hide in "The Glory of Their Times." Even better is to hear it directly from them on the audio edition. In general, Cobb was not well liked at all by his contemporaries, got into a lot of fights on and off the field, and had some old-fashioned racial ideas--"Still fighting the Civil War" is how Sam Crawford put it. However, to a man they also defend his base-running as hard-nosed and aggressive, not cheating or dirty.

To be fair, Crawford to me often comes across as the "Cobb"-like personality. In "The Glory of Their Times" Crawford seems anti-social to a degree. Also, it must have been a tough situation for him during his playing days where the young Cobb came to Detroit and received all the headlines. Jealousy may have been an issue for Crawford. Not to mention, did Crawford join in heavily in the poor rookie treatment of Cobb?

Interesting too that accounts exist that Cobb lobbied hard on behalf of Crawford to help get him elected to the HOF

As with most things it seems, with Cobb, it's complicated

But I would caution the use of Crawford as a character witness for/against Cobb at least to some degree
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-10-2015, 05:23 PM
Joshchisox08's Avatar
Joshchisox08 Joshchisox08 is offline
J0$H B^ck!ey
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: C0nn3cticu+
Posts: 1,943
Default ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sago View Post
http://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/book...wkN/story.html

Sounds like he has been misjudged on several fronts.

My all-time favorite player and to me the greatest hitter and greatest PLAYER of ALL TIME. I don't know how I'd feel about this book being true. I definitely would like to read it.

I highly doubt that he was anything but what he has been portrayed as though.
__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81%
49/76 HOF's 64%
18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90%
22/39 Unique Backs 56%
80/86 Minors 93%
25/48 Southern Leaguers 52%
6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60%

237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW

Excel spreadsheets only $5
T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!!

Checklists sold (20)

T205 8/208 3.8%
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-10-2015, 06:08 PM
Joshwesley's Avatar
Joshwesley Joshwesley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 433
Default

Cobb was an awesome business man that's for sure.....

He did really well for himself after his playing days.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-10-2015, 09:53 PM
Orioles1954 Orioles1954 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,253
Default

Cobb was also an extremely intelligent and well-read man. I had the opportunity to review a couple dozen original Cobb full letters to a female fan and he does nothing but write about the weather and the several books he was reading.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-11-2015, 09:05 AM
vintagehofrookies vintagehofrookies is offline
Dan McHugh IV
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Madison, CT
Posts: 731
Default

with Cobb being my favorite HOFer this book is a must buy and should be an interesting read and comparison to Stumps book.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-11-2015, 09:53 AM
jlehma13 jlehma13 is offline
Jon L
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 354
Default

For a much different perspective into Cobb, this interview with his grandson is very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaA5KpAkKzc

Last edited by jlehma13; 05-11-2015 at 09:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-11-2015, 10:17 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,324
Default

Ty Cobb was not a racist. He defended the inclusion of African-Americans in baseball and all life on numerous occasions. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a quote in which he disparages them.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-11-2015, 10:22 AM
Enfuego's Avatar
Enfuego Enfuego is offline
Anthony Rodriguez
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Deltona, FL
Posts: 517
Default

Sounds like a good read IMO, might check it out.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-11-2015, 11:54 AM
vintagehofrookies vintagehofrookies is offline
Dan McHugh IV
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Madison, CT
Posts: 731
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlehma13 View Post
For a much different perspective into Cobb, this interview with his grandson is very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaA5KpAkKzc
thank you for posting, Im listening to it now
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-11-2015, 12:20 PM
HerbK's Avatar
HerbK HerbK is offline
member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 86
Default

I just finished reading Herschel Cobb's, Heart of a Tiger. A fantastic book which not only highlights the dysfunction of the Cobb family, but also the warmth and generosity of Ty Cobb in his twilight years -- albeit, through the eyes of a young teenager.

While it's hard to say what the man was like during his playing days (depending on who you believe - and for me, Stump isn't one of them), but as a man in his later years, stories of the time spent with his family and him helping out former players who were down on their luck, certainly conflict with how he is perceived by many baseball enthusiasts.
__________________
Herb.

______________________________________________

Successful transactions with: PSACJ, Double-P-Enterprises, RGold, CW, Iron Horse, tiger8mush, dtp717, Hcom24, floyd6294, omegalm1, Baseball Rarities -- among others.

Focusing on 1915 Cracker Jacks - high grade or very sharp cards. Please let me know what you have.

Last edited by HerbK; 05-11-2015 at 01:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-11-2015, 01:47 PM
HerbK's Avatar
HerbK HerbK is offline
member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 86
Default

Another interesting read for Cobb fans.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...back-65618032/
__________________
Herb.

______________________________________________

Successful transactions with: PSACJ, Double-P-Enterprises, RGold, CW, Iron Horse, tiger8mush, dtp717, Hcom24, floyd6294, omegalm1, Baseball Rarities -- among others.

Focusing on 1915 Cracker Jacks - high grade or very sharp cards. Please let me know what you have.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-11-2015, 03:43 PM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is offline
Hank Thomas
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,494
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by byrone View Post
To be fair, Crawford to me often comes across as the "Cobb"-like personality. In "The Glory of Their Times" Crawford seems anti-social to a degree. Also, it must have been a tough situation for him during his playing days where the young Cobb came to Detroit and received all the headlines. Jealousy may have been an issue for Crawford. Not to mention, did Crawford join in heavily in the poor rookie treatment of Cobb?

Interesting too that accounts exist that Cobb lobbied hard on behalf of Crawford to help get him elected to the HOF

As with most things it seems, with Cobb, it's complicated

But I would caution the use of Crawford as a character witness for/against Cobb at least to some degree
Don't believe Crawford? Try Davy Jones.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-11-2015, 06:59 PM
Gobucsmagic74
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

For the record, here's Buck O'Neil's take. If I was able to sit down and have a conversation with any former player or manager, living or deceased, I would probably choose this gentleman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zYopq-dFs

Last edited by Gobucsmagic74; 05-11-2015 at 07:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-11-2015, 07:33 PM
byrone byrone is offline
Brian Macdonald
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Prince Edward Island
Posts: 331
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
Don't believe Crawford? Try Davy Jones.
Davy Jones offers interesting insights, would like to know more about his take on Cobb
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-11-2015, 11:23 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Tim Hornbaker has written a biography of Cobb that has also just been released. His book, which features extensive footnotes and sourcing, concludes that Cobb was racist. Not so much in the KKK mold but in the "I'm white and you should act with deference to me at all times." mold. I asked Tim about this other new book and he told me he doesn't understand how anyone could draw the "not a racist" conclusion.

Hornbaker's book, btw, is fantastic.

FWIW, he agrees that Cobb was not a dirty player.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-12-2015, 10:36 AM
Joshchisox08's Avatar
Joshchisox08 Joshchisox08 is offline
J0$H B^ck!ey
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: C0nn3cticu+
Posts: 1,943
Default ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbK View Post
Another interesting read for Cobb fans.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...back-65618032/

Herb K thanks for that !!! I've never read that before. Looking forward to this book.
__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81%
49/76 HOF's 64%
18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90%
22/39 Unique Backs 56%
80/86 Minors 93%
25/48 Southern Leaguers 52%
6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60%

237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW

Excel spreadsheets only $5
T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!!

Checklists sold (20)

T205 8/208 3.8%
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-12-2015, 10:55 AM
Joshchisox08's Avatar
Joshchisox08 Joshchisox08 is offline
J0$H B^ck!ey
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: C0nn3cticu+
Posts: 1,943
Default ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshchisox08 View Post
Herb K thanks for that !!! I've never read that before. Looking forward to this book.
Interestingly enough this came out last Tuesday.

Cobb War On The Basepaths ...................... two Cobb's in two weeks ???

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/war-...=9781613217658
__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81%
49/76 HOF's 64%
18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90%
22/39 Unique Backs 56%
80/86 Minors 93%
25/48 Southern Leaguers 52%
6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60%

237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW

Excel spreadsheets only $5
T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!!

Checklists sold (20)

T205 8/208 3.8%
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-12-2015, 03:12 PM
Tyler's Avatar
Tyler Tyler is offline
Tyler Cox
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SWFL
Posts: 183
Default

Author coming up on Olbermann right now

Last edited by Tyler; 05-12-2015 at 03:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-12-2015, 07:28 PM
Joshchisox08's Avatar
Joshchisox08 Joshchisox08 is offline
J0$H B^ck!ey
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: C0nn3cticu+
Posts: 1,943
Default

Got my copy today 4 chapters deep.
__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81%
49/76 HOF's 64%
18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90%
22/39 Unique Backs 56%
80/86 Minors 93%
25/48 Southern Leaguers 52%
6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60%

237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW

Excel spreadsheets only $5
T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!!

Checklists sold (20)

T205 8/208 3.8%
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-12-2015, 10:11 PM
slidekellyslide's Avatar
slidekellyslide slidekellyslide is offline
Dan Bretta
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 6,122
Default

Ty Cobb was very complex, but he was not the racist that he's been painted to be by the likes of Al Stump. And there is plenty of evidence in Cobb's own words and actions to prove it.

https://nationaltycobbhistorian.wordpress.com/
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-14-2015, 08:24 PM
Jlighter Jlighter is offline
Jake
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida or VA
Posts: 1,010
Default

I'm surprised this hasn't been a more popular topic on here, if what Leerhsen writes is true than the popular conception that has been drawn of Cobb will be completely changed.

__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/themessage94/

Always up for a trade.

If you have a Blue Weiser Wonder WaJo, PM/Email Me!

Last edited by Jlighter; 05-14-2015 at 08:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-14-2015, 09:10 PM
Joshwesley's Avatar
Joshwesley Joshwesley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 433
Default

That link is completely awesome... Thanks for sharing.

Makes a pretty compelling case that Cobb wasn't exactly the monster that history has made him out to be...

Who knows? That just makes his mystique that much more interesting
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-15-2015, 01:40 AM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshwesley View Post
That link is completely awesome... Thanks for sharing.

Makes a pretty compelling case that Cobb wasn't exactly the monster that history has made him out to be...

Who knows? That just makes his mystique that much more interesting
A baseball writer who thinks a player can get an inside-the-park home run on a ball tapped back to the pitcher? Yikes. Doesn't instill me with a ton of confidence in the rest of the book...
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-15-2015, 04:13 PM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
Larry
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southfield, Michigan
Posts: 1,765
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
You can read what those who played with and against him had to say about him long after he is gone and they are now old men with nothing to prove or hide in "The Glory of Their Times." Even better is to hear it directly from them on the audio edition. In general, Cobb was not well liked at all by his contemporaries, got into a lot of fights on and off the field, and had some old-fashioned racial ideas--"Still fighting the Civil War" is how Sam Crawford put it. However, to a man they also defend his base-running as hard-nosed and aggressive, not cheating or dirty.
+1 as to what is said by his contemporaries in "The Glory of Their Times." The reviewer is also totally off base with regard to his contention that Cobb played in a time when high averages were common. In actual point of fact, Cobb played throughout the heart of the greatest pitchers' era of all time. He is, in fact, just one of 8 players who created more than 200% of the runs an average player would create during the same playing era, a Bill James stat which I consider the best yardstick to compare players across eras, playing their careers under vastly different conditions. Interestingly enough, when you utilize the "neutralization" factor at baseballreference.com, under neutral conditions, to perform up to the equivalent standards of the Georgia Peach, a player would have to hit .400 or better not 3, as Cobb did, but seven times, with an additional 3 seasons of .390 or better!

His legend is growing, and deservedly so.

May your collecting fill you with joy,

Larry
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-15-2015, 05:00 PM
Butch7999's Avatar
Butch7999 Butch7999 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 980
Default

We thought Stump's fiction had been largely debunked years ago.
Cobb may have been no angel, but what's to say the ancient old-timers bad-mouthing him were?
We've known bitter, sour old men who've held grudges for fifty years and more (we're some of them).
__________________
-- the three idiots at
Baseball Games
https://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/baseballgames/

Successful transactions with: bocabirdman, GrayGhost, jimivintage,
Oneofthree67, orioles93, quinnsryche, thecatspajamas, ValKehl

Last edited by Butch7999; 05-31-2015 at 04:53 PM. Reason: corrected typo
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-15-2015, 05:40 PM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch7999 View Post
We though Stump's fiction had been largely debunked years ago.
Cobb may have been no angel, but what's to say the ancient old-timers bad-mouthing him were?
We've known bitter, sour old men who've held grudges for fifty years and more (we're some of them).
In the case of Tim Hornbaker's book, at least, he used a ton of primary sources from Cobb's time. In particular, he made use of articles from African-American newspapers that have gone largely ignored previously.

The "Cobb was a racist" thing isn't just from Stump (who was a fraud) and it's not just from old guys airing a 50-year old grudge.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-15-2015, 07:26 PM
ZenPop's Avatar
ZenPop ZenPop is offline
John Mavroudis
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 335
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74 View Post
For the record, here's Buck O'Neil's take. If I was able to sit down and have a conversation with any former player or manager, living or deceased, I would probably choose this gentleman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zYopq-dFs
Would that every human being be blessed with the humanity and grace of Buck O'Neil.

Cobb was a racist. He was ruthless. He was also a brilliant ballplayer. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

Let me amend this post to say this: I truly, truly hope that what Leerhsen says is correct. I am a massive Giants' fan, but I could never collect Alvin Dark baseball cards after hearing so many stories of his racism. Years later, someone pointed to an obituary in the San Francisco Chronicle about Dark. It contained quotes by Alou and Cepeda about how Dark had asked for forgiveness for his words and behavior in his later days. While not absolving the individual of racist acts, the idea of contrition is a powerful one. I'll try to follow the example of Buck O'Neill in life... and hope that the truth about Cobb wins out. History should never be whitewashed, but it should contain the whole unvarnished record.
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
illustration * design * posters

www.zenpop.com

Last edited by ZenPop; 05-16-2015 at 01:13 AM. Reason: additional comments to clarify...
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-15-2015, 07:47 PM
CW's Avatar
CW CW is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,478
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74 View Post
For the record, here's Buck O'Neil's take. If I was able to sit down and have a conversation with any former player or manager, living or deceased, I would probably choose this gentleman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zYopq-dFs
Wow, thanks for sharing that link. Some men are smart, but few are wise. Buck O'Neil had wisdom to spare. What a great man, and a great American.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-16-2015, 09:14 AM
Jlighter Jlighter is offline
Jake
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida or VA
Posts: 1,010
Default

Another interview. I'm not seeking these out, the author so happens to be appearing on the programs I frequent.

http://onlyagame.wbur.org/2015/05/16...arles-leerhsen
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/themessage94/

Always up for a trade.

If you have a Blue Weiser Wonder WaJo, PM/Email Me!
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-16-2015, 10:00 AM
jhs5120's Avatar
jhs5120 jhs5120 is offline
Jason S!m@nds
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 867
Default

These are the Ty Cobb stories I have heard. Are all of these not true? They are all pretty damaging:
  • In spring training of 1907, a black groundskeeper, Bungy Davis, tried to either shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder. Cobb was outraged, slapping Davis in the face and chasing him until Davis’s wife attempted to intervene. Cobb choked her until Tigers’ catcher Charlie Schmidt pulled him off her and punched him in the face.
  • In 1908 in Detroit, Cobb stepped in freshly poured asphalt and a black workman named Fred Collins made his displeasure known. Cobb punched him the face, knocking him to the ground. A Detroit judge and likely Tigers’ fan found Cobb guilty of battery, but gave him a suspended sentence. Cobb paid Collins $75 to avoid a civil suit.
  • In 1909 in Cleveland, Cobb was charged with attempted murder after stabbing a black night watchman named George Stansfield. Stansfield had intervened after Cobb had slapped a black elevator operator. Cobb’s lawyers, one of whom was a former mayor of Cleveland, managed to get the charges reduced to assault and battery. Cobb pled guilty and was fined $100. Stanfield filed a lawsuit, but he and Cobb settled out of court. (In the comments, Fricks insists, without providing any evidence, that Stansfield was white, and that biographer Charles Alexander knew this but decided to lie about it.)
  • In 1912 in New York, Cobb attacked a white man for a change, charging into the stands during the sixth inning and administering a savage beating to heckler Claude Lueker. The insult that pushed Cobb over the edge? Lueker called Cobb “a half n**.” (Irrelevant to the question of Cobb’s racism: Lueker didn’t have hands. When the crowd pointed it out, Cobb yelled “I don’t care if he doesn’t have feet.”) Cobb was suspended ten games for the incident. “When I spectator calls me a half n*** I think it’s about time to fight,” Cobb told the Detroit Free Press.
  • In 1914 in Detroit, Cobb arrived home with a dinner guest, only to find his wife upset over an argument she had earlier in the day with a local butcher, William Carpenter. Cobb phoned Carpenter, telling him he was coming to see him in the shop, then grabbed his revolver and headed over. When Carpenter saw Cobb enter with a gun, he quickly apologized. Carpenter’s assistant, however, brandished a meat cleaver and advanced on Cobb. Cobb pistol whipped the assistant while Carpenter called the police. Cobb spent the night in jail, and although the assistant decided not to press charges – possible Tigers’ fan alert – Carpenter did. Cobb pled guilty to disturbing the peace and paid a $50 fine. You will never, ever guess Carpenter’s skin color.
  • In 1919 in Detroit, Cobb called hotel chambermaid Ada Morris a n******. Morris talked back, and Cobb responded by kicking her in the stomach and knocking her down a flight of stairs. Morris broke a rib and was hospitalized; the hotel manager threw Cobb out. Morris subsequently filed a $10,000 lawsuit against Cobb. Though the matter was covered in the black press, it was kept out of the white papers. Ultimately, Morris was paid an undisclosed sum and dropped the suit.

Edited to add:

Riley Cooper is known as a racist because he said n****** once (or twice?) after a game. Ty Cobb has done that.
Ron Artest is known as a violent animal because he climbed into the stands to beat up a heckler. Ty Cobb has done that.
Ray Rice is known as a woman beater because he punched his girlfriend. Ty Cobb has also done that!

Could you imagine an athlete more racist than Riley Cooper, as violent as Ron Artest and has the same regard for women as Ray Rice? Sounds like a pleasant fellow

Last edited by jhs5120; 05-16-2015 at 10:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-31-2015, 08:50 AM
Jlighter Jlighter is offline
Jake
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida or VA
Posts: 1,010
Default

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/bo...tml?ref=review
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/themessage94/

Always up for a trade.

If you have a Blue Weiser Wonder WaJo, PM/Email Me!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-31-2015, 09:41 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,494
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhs5120 View Post

Edited to add:

Riley Cooper is known as a racist because he said n****** once (or twice?) after a game. Ty Cobb has done that.
Ron Artest is known as a violent animal because he climbed into the stands to beat up a heckler. Ty Cobb has done that.
Ray Rice is known as a woman beater because he punched his girlfriend. Ty Cobb has also done that!
This obviously will come as a shock to you but are you aware that different standards existed in different eras?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-31-2015, 10:50 AM
Joshchisox08's Avatar
Joshchisox08 Joshchisox08 is offline
J0$H B^ck!ey
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: C0nn3cticu+
Posts: 1,943
Default ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
This obviously will come as a shock to you but are you aware that different standards existed in different eras?
Indeed there were. Not sure why he's being compared to Artest who is just a plain fucking nut job. Or Ray Rice these people have millions of dollars and are doing that crap.

Not to say that Cobb wasn't wealthy but at the times of doing what he did fighting (with fans) was common and not like it was EVER in the NBgay. Hitting women (though not saying he get's a pass) was quite common and a hell of a lot less looked down upon then.
__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81%
49/76 HOF's 64%
18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90%
22/39 Unique Backs 56%
80/86 Minors 93%
25/48 Southern Leaguers 52%
6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60%

237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW

Excel spreadsheets only $5
T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!!

Checklists sold (20)

T205 8/208 3.8%
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-31-2015, 01:07 PM
jhs5120's Avatar
jhs5120 jhs5120 is offline
Jason S!m@nds
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
This obviously will come as a shock to you but are you aware that different standards existed in different eras?

So you're not saying he didn't do these things, but that they were socially acceptable. I get it.

Back then it was socially acceptable to try to murder a man for intervening in your berating racist rant of another man?

Last edited by jhs5120; 05-31-2015 at 01:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-31-2015, 01:14 PM
jhs5120's Avatar
jhs5120 jhs5120 is offline
Jason S!m@nds
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshchisox08 View Post
Indeed there were. Not sure why he's being compared to Artest who is just a plain fucking nut job. Or Ray Rice these people have millions of dollars and are doing that crap.

Not to say that Cobb wasn't wealthy but at the times of doing what he did fighting (with fans) was common and not like it was EVER in the NBgay. Hitting women (though not saying he get's a pass) was quite common and a hell of a lot less looked down upon then.
Artest is considered a nut job because he went into the stands and beat a fan up. Cobb went into the stands and beat a veteran with no hands.

Cobb was fairly well off in 1919, when he savagely beat and hospitalized a woman for talking back to him.

I mean, you're right, things were different back then, but when people say he wasn't a violent, racist thug and a disciple human being they should probably take a look at what he has done.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-31-2015, 02:31 PM
Joshchisox08's Avatar
Joshchisox08 Joshchisox08 is offline
J0$H B^ck!ey
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: C0nn3cticu+
Posts: 1,943
Default

I wouldn't call him a racist thug that's a bit off the mark. Did you read the book ?? It doesn't dismiss things that he had done but it sure proves he wasn't a racist like Stump made him out to be.
__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81%
49/76 HOF's 64%
18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90%
22/39 Unique Backs 56%
80/86 Minors 93%
25/48 Southern Leaguers 52%
6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60%

237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW

Excel spreadsheets only $5
T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!!

Checklists sold (20)

T205 8/208 3.8%
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-31-2015, 04:05 PM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,494
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhs5120 View Post
So you're not saying he didn't do these things, but that they were socially acceptable. I get it.

Back then it was socially acceptable to try to murder a man for intervening in your berating racist rant of another man?
First, as the new book mentioned much of what you wrote has been debunked and Cobb is actually described as a supporter of integrating major league baseball and oftentimes a supporter of blacks. Second, your comparison of what was acceptable and deemed normal in society in 1910 is different from what existed 100 years later. To compare Ty Cobb's actions to Riley Cooper and Ray Rice and suggest that you are comparing apples to apples just makes zero sense. Are we actually having this discussion or do you not honestly see the point here? Bugs Bunny was a racist bastard too if you look at some of Warner Brothers' old cartoons.

Last edited by calvindog; 05-31-2015 at 04:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-31-2015, 04:07 PM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,494
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhs5120 View Post
Artest is considered a nut job because he went into the stands and beat a fan up. Cobb went into the stands and beat a veteran with no hands.

Cobb was fairly well off in 1919, when he savagely beat and hospitalized a woman for talking back to him.

I mean, you're right, things were different back then, but when people say he wasn't a violent, racist thug and a disciple human being they should probably take a look at what he has done.
What the hell is a 'disciple' human being? Like one of Jesus's followers?

Last edited by calvindog; 05-31-2015 at 04:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-31-2015, 04:24 PM
jhs5120's Avatar
jhs5120 jhs5120 is offline
Jason S!m@nds
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
First, as the new book mentioned much of what you wrote has been debunked and Cobb is actually described as a supporter of integrating major league baseball and oftentimes a supporter of blacks. Second, your comparison of what was acceptable and deemed normal in society in 1910 is different from what existed 100 years later. To compare Ty Cobb's actions to Riley Cooper and Ray Rice and suggest that you are comparing apples to apples just makes zero sense. Are we actually having this discussion or do you not honestly see the point here? Bugs Bunny was a racist bastard too if you look at some of Warner Brothers' old cartoons.
He tried to murder someone. That wasn't debunked. Ignore any comparisons to today's players (which paint Cobb as a psychopath) and tell me whether murder was socially acceptable back in 1910? Then let me know if beating a black woman near to death for being uppity is something that a person "who wasn't racist" would do. I'll admit I wasn't around back in 1910, so I don't know what was the norm, but I have never heard of other players beating blacks in the streets and trying to murder people.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-31-2015, 05:19 PM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,494
Default

You probably should read the book which counters much of what you say -- and actually was written by someone who did real research. Maybe then you'll become a disciple human being like Cobb too.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-31-2015, 05:34 PM
Joshchisox08's Avatar
Joshchisox08 Joshchisox08 is offline
J0$H B^ck!ey
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: C0nn3cticu+
Posts: 1,943
Default ,

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
You probably should read the book which counters much of what you say -- and actually was written by someone who did real research. Maybe then you'll become a disciple human being like Cobb too.
+1
__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81%
49/76 HOF's 64%
18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90%
22/39 Unique Backs 56%
80/86 Minors 93%
25/48 Southern Leaguers 52%
6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60%

237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW

Excel spreadsheets only $5
T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!!

Checklists sold (20)

T205 8/208 3.8%
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-31-2015, 06:24 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
This obviously will come as a shock to you but are you aware that different standards existed in different eras?

Well said, Jeff.

What has to be realized here is that 40 years after the Civil War ended....it really didn't end in many American's minds. Circa 1905 - 1908,
when the careers of guys like Cobb and Joe Jackson started, there were very few BB players from the "deep South". And, it wasn't easy at
the beginning for them to fit in.

Hey guys....after reading all these books on Cobb that have been written by guys who have an "agenda", try reading TY AND THE BABE.
Tom Stanton provides a fair and very interesting take on Cobb (especially Cobb's rivalry with the Babe....when Ruth pitched for Boston).

I'll not reveal anymore, but it's a great story on these two legends of Baseball, during their playing years and after. The Appendix is about
Ty Cobb versus Babe Ruth, Game by Game. It's fascinating to read the details of approx. 200 games that Cobb and Ruth played in from
May 11, 1915 > Sept 11, 1927.







TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 05-31-2015 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Correct typo.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 05-31-2015, 07:20 PM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,494
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post

Hey guys....after reading all these books on Cobb that have been written by guys who have an "agenda", try reading TY AND THE BABE.
Tom Stanton provides a fair and very interesting take on Cobb (especially Cobb's rivalry with the Babe....when Ruth pitched for Boston).





TED Z
.
Ted, I loved this book as well. I've read just about all the major bios on Cobb and will read the Leerhsen and Tim Hornbaker (War on the Basepaths) books which just came out.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 05-31-2015, 10:20 PM
Orioles1954 Orioles1954 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,253
Default

Jeff and others--

Probably one of the neatest projects I've had in the auction industry was reviewing the dozens of letters penned between Ty Cobb and Helene Champlain ranging over five decades from the 1910s through the 1950s. I'm not sure how Cobb and Champlain met and if there was "something more" to their relationship, but the letters were hardly dripping with sexual tension. What's more is that they were entirely absent of racial rhetoric, the ramblings of a psychotic mad man or even one mention of baseball. In short, they were really interesting book reviews with other personal anecdotes interspersed. In short, it helped me understand the depth of Cobb in greater detail....an astute and well-read business man who loved the weather in both California and Nevada

Last edited by Orioles1954; 05-31-2015 at 10:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Ty Cobb Biography - "War on the Basepaths" by Tim Hornbaker Tabe Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk 2 05-05-2015 03:20 PM
DBacks- dirty play against McCutchen Matthew80 Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk 30 08-06-2014 01:36 PM
Physics of Cheating in Baseball tachyonbb Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk 3 06-05-2011 07:46 AM
Cobb Biography BosseFieldBoy Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 3 05-22-2011 12:02 PM
Feeling Dirty? murphusa Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 10 05-07-2011 12:19 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:41 AM.


ebay GSB