Grange "Rookie"?

[Webster]

What is the earliest Red Grange issue? His W590 is listed as 1925-1931, and the Shotwell cards I have seen are 1926. Are there other earlier cards, and what do most football collectors consider to be his "rookie"?

[TanksAndSpartans]

I think most collectors consider the "1933 Sport Kings" to be his rookie. That is the case on the PSA set registry. Also, check out this link ("Notes" column): http://www.footballcardgallery.com/s...?search=Grange

[Webster]

That an interesting link, but funny that they don't show the W590 - which predates the Sport Kings by more than 5 years. It is also a great image (maybe from college?) and much more scarce. Here's a link to the only one I could find that sold on ebay - although there is another PSA graded copy listed now.

http://bit.ly/NavnGv

[jefferyepayne]

Cards designated as Rookie cards in the hobby are not necessarily the first card of a player (as strange as that sounds). It's their first card in a mainstream set. Cards considered outside the mainstream that are older are often called pre-rookie cards and there are A LOT of famous players with pre-rookie cards.

I built a list of all HOFers and their pre-rookie cards a while back and have been spending some time trying to pick them up. It's a fun and interesting subset to go after!

jeff

P.S. Red Grange's official rookie card is the 1933 Sport Kings. As mentioned, there are a bunch that are earlier.

[HRBAKER]

Jeff,

How does one certain card get deemed to be the "official" RC?
Thanks.

Jeff

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by Webster

What is the earliest Red Grange issue? His W590 is listed as 1925-1931, and the Shotwell cards I have seen are 1926. Are there other earlier cards, and what do most football collectors consider to be his "rookie"?

There are several other Grange cards earlier than the 1933 Sport Kings that are extremely rare. 1926 Spalding Champions, 1928 Star Player Candy, 1929/30 Rogers Peet, 1932 C.A. Briggs are four that all have a total POP under 5, meaning across all grading companies and all grades there are less than 5 known to exist. I've been looking for all four for a long time.

I don't know of any that are earlier than 1926. Star Player Candy (SPC) cards are designated by SGC as 1925 but most agree this date is incorrect. PSA designates SPC cards as 1928.

jeff

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Jeff,

How does one certain card get deemed to be the "official" RC?
Thanks.

Jeff

No clue who decided this for vintage cards.

jeff

[novakjr]

I think when the modern rookie card rules were created, they just went and applied them to the vintage market as well. Despite the fact that it was a completely different hobby back then. And with the internet, it's a completely different hobby now.. Given the restrictions at the time, I understand designating something like the 33 Grange as his rookie. BUT nowadays, EVERYTHING(no matter how regional, or limited, the item was) is available to everyone, everywhere. Those rules and designations are simply outdated.. Forget the designations, and use your own judgment as to what you feel is a rookie.

Am I gonna let MLB and Beckett tell me that(just an example) 2008 is Evan Longoria's rookie card, just because of their rules? F*ck no. The damn guy had MLB cards in '06. Those are his rookies.. The hobby and collectors dictate the rules as to what is, or isn't, a rookie card. Not MLB, NFL, NBA, Beckett, or whoever.

[TanksAndSpartans]

I would agree with David. When I was a kid, if "rookie" card was documented someplace, I certainly didn't know about it. We had Fleer, Topps, and Donruss so the way I thought about it was looking at the first card in each and if there were ties i.e. 2 companies issued an 81 card and the 3rd not until 82, I considered both 81s rookies.

The only relevance I see to what someone says is a rookie is the Set Registry - something like HOF rookie set - someone made that call, but you can obviously choose not to collect the set if you disagree with the designations. The one caveat is - and I have no idea if the data bears this out - but logically if more people are collecting the 33 Grange because they are going along with the crowd, demand is higher, so the price might actually be more than one of the earlier cards.

Finally, if you throw the word rookie out the window, it would be interesting if someone could say which Grange card was first - I didn't even know those 1926 cards existed, so it isn't me.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

I would agree with David. When I was a kid, if "rookie" card was documented someplace, I certainly didn't know about it. We had Fleer, Topps, and Donruss so the way I thought about it was looking at the first card in each and if there were ties i.e. 2 companies issued an 81 card and the 3rd not until 82, I considered both 81s rookies.

The only relevance I see to what someone says is a rookie is the Set Registry - something like HOF rookie set - someone made that call, but you can obviously choose not to collect the set if you disagree with the designations. The one caveat is - and I have no idea if the data bears this out - but logically if more people are collecting the 33 Grange because they are going along with the crowd, demand is higher, so the price might actually be more than one of the earlier cards.

Finally, if you throw the word rookie out the window, it would be interesting if someone could say which Grange card was first - I didn't even know those 1926 cards existed, so it isn't me.

As far as I know, no one is sure which card in 1926 was produced first. There isn't a lot of good information about some of these sets and when they were produced.

jeff

[HRBAKER]

I think the larger point (to me at least) is that there really is no such thing as a Grange RC or most other players for that matter. It's largely a hobby-only construct and mostly people define it however they want, usually in a way that is most beneficial to themselves.

[clamendo]

I recently bought a wrapper from 1926 Shotwell. It was nearly perfect. It was between the pages of a football program from 0ct/1926. I have seen some of the promotional material and letters from the 1925 Spaldings trying to entice a baseball player to sign up. The second letter was I believe April /26. There are other grange cards which are not listed in this chain. Two different foreign ones and three exhibit cards from the movie one minute to play. I have also seen a non-sport small card of Grange that Chad Dreier showed me one time. My vote is for the 1926 Spalding which I believe there are three to four known. Most of the rare pre-war football cards that have been graded are in SGC holders so I don't think PSA has seen or even knows what some of these cards look like. If the grading companies allowed you to register any cards (forgetting about the awards) then the hobby would see


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[Webster]

Great information Carl.

Weren't the W590 Strip Cards issued in 1925?

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by clamendo

I recently bought a wrapper from 1926 Shotwell. It was nearly perfect. It was between the pages of a football program from 0ct/1926. I have seen some of the promotional material and letters from the 1925 Spaldings trying to entice a baseball player to sign up. The second letter was I believe April /26. There are other grange cards which are not listed in this chain. Two different foreign ones and three exhibit cards from the movie one minute to play. I have also seen a non-sport small card of Grange that Chad Dreier showed me one time. My vote is for the 1926 Spalding which I believe there are three to four known. Most of the rare pre-war football cards that have been graded are in SGC holders so I don't think PSA has seen or even knows what some of these cards look like. If the grading companies allowed you to register any cards (forgetting about the awards) then the hobby would see


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+1

The further you dig on vintage football, the more cool and interesting items you find. That's what makes collecting this stuff so interesting.

And Carl is right about the grading companies. They only want sets in there registry that they've verified there are at least two of some of the cards. They have no interest in grading one of a kind cards/sets for historical purposes so the registry is missing a LOT of cards.

jeff

[Publius]

I agree with Carl and consider Granges true rookie t be the 26 Spalding promotional card.

Probably issued earlier than the Shotwells as the movie came out late in 1926' October I think?
I definitely give a nod to the Star Player card or the Rogers Peet as those are pretty damn close too. Most SPC cards were of college players so that could be a clue as well.

Great topic, lets see some examples

[clamendo]

Okay Joe


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[clamendo]

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[clamendo]

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[jefferyepayne]

You know I love your C.A. Briggs, Carl, but you're holding out my favorite Grange of yours!

Here are some more for those who are interested.













jeff

[jefferyepayne]

jeff

[jefferyepayne]

jeff

[clamendo]

I thought Mike B. would show a few of his? Then we'll have them all shown.

[Publius]

Carl
agree, we have that one special card that Mike needs to show. Nice to see you post those, spectacular collection man!

Since Im a day late to the show, Ill just add a few fun things.

One card Ive always attributed to Grange is the Ya-lo set. Heck, we was president of development of the company and wrote the intro to the instruction manual, makes sense they used his image.







Ive noticed these come from different locations printed at the bottom of the redemption card. I dig the Anacortes one as I used to scuba dive there alot


Ticket stub from that famous game that put football and Grange on the map.

[Publius]

Almost forgot the Wheatie panel.

[jefferyepayne]

Great stuff, guys! Here's one that hasn't been covered.



jeff

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by Webster

Great information Carl.

Weren't the W590 Strip Cards issued in 1925?

I know PSA designates the W590's as 1925-31 but I don't know what that means. Does it mean that ALL of the W590's were distributed in all of these years or SOME W590's were distributed in each of these years. If they were all distributed in all of these years, you might argue that his W590 card is Grange's earliest card. However its been validated that the SGC designated 1948-52 Exhibit set contains cards that were NOT produced in 1948 so who knows regarding the W590s?

It does appear that the 1926 Spalding card was produced earlier than the Shotwell sets.

Who went after the W590 Grange that just sold on ebay?

jeff

[Exhibitman]

The W590s were issued in 1925 then revised in 1931. Dating can be determined from caption and subject changes on some of the subjects. For example this card of Benny Leonard identifies him as champ; he retired in 1925.

[clamendo]

I have another football player from the set while on Columbia, but SGC notated Grange and Koppisch as W580s not W590s 1925-31Koppisch played for Columbia in 1924, the Buffalo Bisons of the NFL in 1925, and the NY Giants in 1926. So, I think its difficult to pin down a year?