How does a player get WAR points ?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by nat

No, it doesn't only count their errors. The problem that first baseman have got is that pretty much any major league baseball player can make almost all of the plays that a first baseman gets called on to make. (With the occasional exception.) Scooping those throws is important, but WAR measures wins _above replacement_ and pretty much any replacement first baseman would be able to make most of those plays. The really good defensive first basemen do well by WAR. Pujols himself (who was really good at first when he was young) was averaging about 2 WAR a year from defense from 2006 to 2009.

That's the part I just can't agree on. Centerfield in most parks isn't much more than a test of running speed. Especially in a typical symmetrical fan shaped park.

But to say that's harder than either left or right field at say Fenway is just silly. Left field especially has made even some excellent fielders look silly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's the part I just can't agree on. Centerfield in most parks isn't much more than a test of running speed. Especially in a typical symmetrical fan shaped park.

But to say that's harder than either left or right field at say Fenway is just silly. Left field especially has made even some excellent fielders look silly.

I agree with you on left field in Fenway, but surely there's more to center field than speed, there is throwing, a huge question of judgment and instincts on whether to charge a sinking liner or play it on the bounce, same for judging the flight path of a deep ball. And so forth.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I agree with you on left field in Fenway, but surely there's more to center field than speed, there is throwing, a huge question of judgment and instincts on whether to charge a sinking liner or play it on the bounce, same for judging the flight path of a deep ball. And so forth.

Other than the throwing, those things are mostly the same for other fields. Maybe marginally more difficult because of covering more ground, but in many parks not by much. And the speed usually balances that out.


What seems weird now you mention it, is that the two best I've seen for throwing both played right field. Evans and Ichiro, I can't count Mays because I only saw his last year when he was way past his prime, but I hear he was amazing.

And of course the Sox had Damon in center who couldn't throw well at all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Other than the throwing, those things are mostly the same for other fields. Maybe marginally more difficult because of covering more ground, but in many parks not by much. And the speed usually balances that out.


What seems weird now you mention it, is that the two best I've seen for throwing both played right field. Evans and Ichiro, I can't count Mays because I only saw his last year when he was way past his prime, but I hear he was amazing.

And of course the Sox had Damon in center who couldn't throw well at all.

RF to 3B obviously longer than from other fields so yeah the strongest arms (Parker, Clemente, etc.) often play there. And centerfielders cover a LOT more ground because CF is much deeper almost everywhere.

[robkas68]

An example of how it can be misapplied:

Offensive WAR numbers:

Ozzie Smith 1980
Rod Carew 1983

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO AVE OB% SLG OPS oWAR
609 67 140 18 5 0 35 57 71 49 .230 .313 .276 .589 2.7
472 66 160 24 2 2 44 6 57 48 .339 .409 .420 .820 2.9

The fact that their offensive WAR is similar does not suggest that they are equal offensive players. Ozzie is almost 3 wins better than the dismal offensive AAAA
shortstop as he at least gives you some walks and stolen bases. Carew even at age 37 was almost 3 wins offensively better than the dime a dozen replacement first baseman who will hit .240 with 12 homers. But they are not equal offensive players. If it’s the bottom of the ninth and you are down a run, you clearly want Carew to pinch hit, not Ozzie. (you can use Ozzie to pinch run after Carew gets on base).

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by robkas68

An example of how it can be misapplied:

Offensive WAR numbers:

Ozzie Smith 1980
Rod Carew 1983

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO AVE OB% SLG OPS oWAR
609 67 140 18 5 0 35 57 71 49 .230 .313 .276 .589 2.7
472 66 160 24 2 2 44 6 57 48 .339 .409 .420 .820 2.9

The fact that their offensive WAR is similar does not suggest that they are equal offensive players. Ozzie is almost 3 wins better than the dismal offensive AAAA
shortstop as he at least gives you some walks and stolen bases. Carew even at age 37 was almost 3 wins offensively better than the dime a dozen replacement first baseman who will hit .240 with 12 homers. But they are not equal offensive players. If it’s the bottom of the ninth and you are down a run, you clearly want Carew to pinch hit, not Ozzie. (you can use Ozzie to pinch run after Carew gets on base).

I don't know how offensive WAR is calculated but the OPS shows Carew is clearly the better hitter.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

RF to 3B obviously longer than from other fields so yeah the strongest arms (Parker, Clemente, etc.) often play there. And centerfielders cover a LOT more ground because CF is much deeper almost everywhere.

Which is my point that CF is almost entirely about running ability. Unless a CF is slow but positions well, it really doesn't take more skill than any other outfield position.

[nat]

Robert is exactly right, that would be a terrible way to use oWAR (that is, the offensive part of WAR). oWAR doesn't tell you who is the better hitter, it tells you who is the better hitter _relative to AAAA guys at the same position_. And even guys who would be iffy major leaguers at 1B hit better than your ordinary shortstop. WAR is a good tool if you're using it right, not if you aren't.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by nat

Robert is exactly right, that would be a terrible way to use oWAR (that is, the offensive part of WAR). oWAR doesn't tell you who is the better hitter, it tells you who is the better hitter _relative to AAAA guys at the same position_. And even guys who would be iffy major leaguers at 1B hit better than your ordinary shortstop. WAR is a good tool if you're using it right, not if you aren't.

Chimps figured that out when using a stick to fish ants out of their holes.


On the subject of Trout vs. Pujols, I'm guessing the WAR numbers mentioned were overall, not oWAR or dWAR - isolated those two stats may bring things more into focus.