needed: walter johnson feedback

[chaddurbin]

won this in legendary, supposedly it comes with a full JSA loa, but the piece is frame and matted. description states it's black fountain pen on magazine paper. a board member has already stated his doubt about the signature to me. any feedback welcome. hopefully the scan is sufficient, i don't want a $750 forgery.

[Runscott]

I don't like it. I have two of his hand-written letters, and three signatures. Comparing against his writing in those, including two envelopes that he also addressed, I don't like it.

Sorry to say that.

[chaddurbin]

thx scott. i want to hear the truth, i haven't sent payment so if it's bad i will inform them i'm not paying. i will be surprised tho that if everyone think it's bad how it got a full letter from JSA.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

thx scott. i want to hear the truth, i haven't sent payment so if it's bad i will inform them i'm not paying. i will be surprised tho that if everyone think it's bad how it got a full letter from JSA.

All I'm saying is "I personally don't like it". But I am NOT an autograph expert. There are plenty of things that look good about it. Also, I primarily collect hand-written letters, partly because I'm paranoid about autographs.

What you have is a simple personalized autograph, which he might not sign the same way he would write the same words/letters in a handwritten letter. Basically, when he's signing a letter, he's not providing an autograph as a collectible item, but with your item, he IS. I know that would affect the way I signed something.

I would take advantage of Mr. Stinson's offer (assuming it's still being offered) - he's one of the most respected authenticators around.

[Runscott]

One more thing - I am NOT one of the anti-JSA guys. I have plenty of items with JSA letters, and I'm certain they are all legit.

[Kawika]

"Please keep in mind that is the job of any forger to make the signatures MATCH, its easy to do; for a good authenticator the signature itself (in most cases) is the LAST thing he looks at." - Jim Stinson

Bearing the above in mind, the signature on my Exhibit card looks a lot like yours and I wouldn't rule out it being authentic until Jim has had a chance to give his opinion.

[Scott Garner]

Do you have any information on when this magazine photo was signed? This could possibly give me one bit of info that would help. Also, could you please post the entire picture of WaJo? Thanks!

Although there are some similarities with exemplars that I own in my personal collection and others that I have gathered through the years, there are also several differences that make me question its authenticity.

Given the time frame in which it was signed, I might be able to comment with more conviction.

[Runscott]

Re-reading my second post in this thread, my response sounds kind of wimpy. If anyone cares, here's my reason: we had a thread a while back that involved a questionable 'Cy Young' autograph. I posted the EXACT reasons I thought it was bad (very detailed stuff), and I thought I had done a good thing, providing information for potential victims on this board, which, to my way of thinking, is composed of a bunch of Net 54 hobby buddies who should want to help each other.

Result: I was ignored by the authentication experts and got my wrist slapped by one or two board members. Quite a surprise. Apparently it's a no-no to give such detail, as it will help forgers hone their skills. I personally feel that by learning such detail, we help the collector and the authenticator, much like the detail Mark provides regarding photo identification has helped collectors avoid ridiculous assertions made by sellers. I also feel that such detail (at least the kind I provided) provides almost ZERO help to a forger, as most of it can NOT be applied to their forgeries. I won't bore you by explaining why, but I'm sure the autograph authenticators here understand.

It is frustrating when someone asks for an autograph opinion here, and board members state that it is authentic, and I am certain that it is not, but I cannot give the detailed reason why, because the experts will get upset.

So...that's why I'm not posting my detailed reasons here. Carry on.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Do you have any information on when this magazine photo was signed? This could possibly give me one bit of info that would help. Also, could you please post the entire picture of WaJo? Thanks!

"circa 1924 WJ signed". here's a link to the auction: http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...ntoryid=151891. thanks for all the opinions/thoughts so far on the thread and pm.

the area of the picture below is 3.75" x 5.25" to give some visual context

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

"circa 1924 WJ signed". here's a link to the auction: http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...ntoryid=151891. thanks for all the opinions/thoughts so far on the thread and pm.

the area of the picture below is 3.75" x 5.25" to give some visual context

I'm going to go out on a limb and tell you that I would be not be comfortable with some of the inconsistencies of this Walter Johnson autograph, especially given the time frame it was supposed to be signed. I will PM you with my specifics...

[Hankphenom]

I like it, but here's how I do Walter Johnson autographs: I look at them for several seconds and then say, "If I had to say yes or no, here's what I'd say." I'm no autograph expert, in the technical sense, but I might have seen (as in paid attention to, because I always pay attention to Walter Johnson material) more Johnson autographs short of somebody like Jimmy, Grad, or other longtime major authenticators. I've also been known to be wrong, at least according to "experts." So there's my two cents. I especially like the writing of the salutation. I've seen so many variations of his autograph that I know were real, so the name itself is less important to me, although I like this one, too. However, if any of the guys that really know their stuff, and there are at least two of them here on Net54, declared that they didn't like it for one reason or another, I'd go with them. Of course, the big guys also disagree with each other ALL the time. I'll run it by Keating and see what he says.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I like it, but here's how I do Walter Johnson autographs: I look at them for several seconds and then say, "If I had to say yes or no, here's what I'd say." I'm no autograph expert, in the technical sense, but I might have seen (as in paid attention to, because I always pay attention to Walter Johnson material) more Johnson autographs short of somebody like Jimmy, Grad, or other longtime major authenticators. I've also been known to be wrong, at least according to "experts." So there's my two cents. I especially like the writing of the salutation. I've seen so many variations of his autograph that I know were real, so the name itself is less important to me, although I like this one, too. However, if any of the guys that really know their stuff, and there are at least two of them here on Net54, declared that they didn't like it for one reason or another, I'd go with them. Of course, the big guys also disagree with each other ALL the time. I'll run it by Keating and see what he says.

Hank, What do you think of the "J"? My concern is the break at the top. Because I sign the "S" in my first name that way, I'm fairly sure that Johnson would have started at the bottom of the top loop, gone to the left, NOT STOPPED, then come down on the right, gotten some air at the bottom, the up and to the right. The break seems very weird to me.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Hank, What do you think of the "J"? My concern is the break at the top. Because I sign the "S" in my first name that way, I'm fairly sure that Johnson would have started at the bottom of the top loop, gone to the left, NOT STOPPED, then come down on the right, gotten some air at the bottom, the up and to the right. The break seems very weird to me.

That was one of 4 concerns that I had as well...

Hank,
I appreciate you checking in with your thoughts!

[chaddurbin]

yes interesting i've had a couple WJ collectors saying they think it's bad, then hank with about as much of an authority on WJ as anyone saying he thinks it's good. just when i thought i had figured it out .

the J is a big sore spot for me also, have you seen writings like that from WJ hank? i appreciate your input.

[Rob L]

The "j" is all sorts of wrong. The rest isn't bad, but the J pops out! All IMHO obviously. I'm not an auto expert but my favorite dead ball era player is The Big Train so I have seen many of his autographs!

[Hankphenom]

I don't have a file of exemplars, so I don't know if the J is so different from all others as to be conclusive that it's bad. And even if so, things can happen during the course of signing an autograph to make it different. But for all the rest of it, and especially the salutation, if this is a forgery the guy really got it down as I look at it. Another point: if this is a forgery, why wouldn't he do the "J" in a more common way? I'd like to hear what our resident experts think, and that will be good enough for me.

[Runscott]

Looks like it must be real.

Congratulations.

[Hankphenom]

This is how Keating judges it, with the caveat that he would really need to see it in person:

"I didn’t say I would rule it out—and I agree that the “Best Wishes” are dead on. Not sure about the other “W’s” and the vertical stroke at the very end—added to concerns over the “J” making a group of ‘issues’ one would have to overcome."

[RichardSimon]

Hi guys, I have not been posting lately, I am recovering from major knee surgery and my surgeon told me not to sit in front of the computer for any length of time, so I have not been reading the board much. Starting to feel a little better so here goes,,,.
I would not be a buyer of that Johnson.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Hi guys, I have not been posting lately, I am recovering from major knee surgery and my surgeon told me not to sit in front of the computer for any length of time, so I have not been reading the board much. Starting to feel a little better so here goes,,,.
I would not be a buyer of that Johnson.

Richard, sitting in front of a computer is not good, even if you aren't having knee problems

Glad to hear you are feeling better.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Hi guys, I have not been posting lately, I am recovering from major knee surgery and my surgeon told me not to sit in front of the computer for any length of time, so I have not been reading the board much. Starting to feel a little better so here goes,,,.
I would not be a buyer of that Johnson.

Hope you heal up fast, Richard!

[chaddurbin]

with richard chiming in that about wraps it up. i want to thank everyone that took the time to respond, especially chris who initially told me he didn't like it. i was hoping the sig to be good as i thought it went for a low price, but alas...

i was planning to make another donation to red cross after the verdict from jim good/bad but he stayed away from the thread for whatever reason, but i've done so to the disaster relief and am grateful for all the opinions.

p.s. thx to leon for giving us an opportunity to play, jim for the brilliant idea, and richard for giving his opinion from the emergency room

[Runscott]

An interesting website:

PSA Autograph Facts - Walter Johnson

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

with richard chiming in that about wraps it up. i want to thank everyone that took the time to respond, especially chris who initially told me he didn't like it. i was hoping the sig to be good as i thought it went for a low price, but alas...

i was planning to make another donation to red cross after the verdict from jim good/bad but he stayed away from the thread for whatever reason, but i've done so to the disaster relief and am grateful for all the opinions.

p.s. thx to leon for giving us an opportunity to play, jim for the brilliant idea, and richard for giving his opinion from the emergency room

Thank you for your contribution ! Sorry if it seemed like I stayed out of it intentionally but the issues I have with it one way or the other really could not be addressed without your having the item in hand. Basically Kevin's response would echo my own. But here are the points I'd be looking at.

1) I would REALLY hope that the item was examined OUT of the frame before sold. I have to think any responsible autograph guy would do that
2) In the photo it appears the pen ran off the left side of the photo, I would look for excess ink on the edge as runoff
3) Actual stress marks indentations in the photo itself
4) In the portion of the salutation and signature under magnification where the lines intersect there should be a slightly darker halo
5) And I would want to examine the reverse
________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[chaddurbin]

thx jim.

i believe JSA's policy to include they DO examine stuff under glass, no reason to think they actually took the piece out in this case to look at it.

with all the ink examination and indentation comments, what are you trying to determine?