Next Generation of Grading Cos.

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Posted By: peter chao

We all have fancy ideas about how SGC and PSA can improve their service. The problem is most of the improvements would be too costly to implement. How about something simple and inexpensive that would improve the grading companies?

To me, it would seem like a good idea for the card companies to keep track of cards that have been commonly counterfeited, this way I can go on their website and find out if I have to be extra careful in making a particular purchase. Is that asking for too much?

How about your ideas?

Peter C.

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Posted By: Phil Garry

While it only applies to a very small percentage of the vintage card market, I believe the grading companies should find a way to assess the player images on the old 19th century tobacco cards like Old Judges, etc. Darker, clearer images would be rewarded and lighter, fainter images would be penalized.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"To me, it would seem like a good idea for the card companies to keep track of cards that have been commonly counterfeited, this way I can go on their website and find out if I have to be extra careful in making a particular purchase. Is that asking for too much?"



Then you wouldn't send them the cards to reject (or slab) and they would lose income.



Kevin

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Posted By: boxingbaseballgolf33

The card grading business is a very subjective process. There has to be a way for large companies like SGC and PSA to communicate better in the hobby. They need to work with all dealers, auctions and collectors large or small to come up with a solution to improve the overall market. Just this past year I have heard more stories about counterfeits, fakes, reprinted cards, cards being slabbed that should not have been. Also the problems with law suits and court cases are growing. The sports market or should I say industry now is growing, but is it for the better? I am a small independent collector/dealer that enjoys the hobby and if we can get the large companies to listen to our needs we maybe better off. Maybe they need to setup meetings for the public at shows for an hour so they can listen to suggestions or have a live online "town meeting" like some sites have. I enjoy this hobby too much to see it get wasted away by some of the larger companies that do not want to listen but instead collect fees for a process that is very subjective to begin with.

Jimmy

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Jeez, I must be on a different planet. I've not heard any increase in stories of "counterfeits, fakes, or reprinted cards" making their way into slabs from either legitimate grading company. I saw a '38 Goudey common reprint in a BVG holder once a few years ago. That's about it.

Personally, I believe that it is the grading company's job to grade cards. Given the fact that several million cards a year are submitted to them, I think they do a fine job. Once in a while we see a blatant error, and occasionally we see an obvious alteration in a slab. Of course we don't see is the amount of cards that get rejected (the grading company makes money whether they reject the card or not), we don't see the dollars they invest in improvements or technology, and we don't see most of the cards that are graded accurately - mostly because it's way cooler to post an obvious mistake on a message board than it is to say "Hey, look at my perfectly-graded 1979 Stan Papi."

The only issue I have with grading is the degree to which some people depend on grading companies to take the place of actually having to possess real knowledge about the cards they spend money on.

-Al

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

What should happen next is that Topps or Upper Deck should enter the slabbing business. They should issue a set that comes slabbed from the manufacturer. A kid could open up his wrapper, and there would be one or two factory slabbed cards. That is they way to go.

Given time, PSA and SGC will get all of the old stuff slabbed. Then they're out of business. Because all 2008 cards and later will come pre-slabbed.

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Posted By: peter chao

Dream on...it would be far to expensive to have wax packs of slabbed cards. In 1989 Upper Deck put a hologram on their cards that was suppose to make their cards counterfeit proof, that's probably the best Topps or Upper Deck can do.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Peter, something simple and inexpensive to improve the grading companies sounds to me like saying "I can not afford to fix the leak, but Im going to put a new coat of paint on the pipe"!

Gosh, SGC has told us that they can not detect the removal of wax, gum, glue, light pencil and other enhancements including corner flattening, and wrinkle removal. Now admittedly, some collectors feel that this is acceptable, but not all collectors.

My recommendation is to offer an option for those collectors who want their cards held to a higher standard. Perhaps this is not feasible from the current grading companies. But if collectors want to determine whether their cards have undergone these modifications, they need to make their requirement known. And they need to recognize that the employment of specialized diagnostics will require specialized training, equipment and personnel (ie. costs).

So, if nobody wants to foot the bill, that subject is closed. And the general griping about mistakes, inconsistencies, etc. is what is on the menu. Personally, I've had enough of that fare.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

Ganz produces these little furry beanie baby type of things and sells them for a whopping $12.99 retail - I know my store sells a boat load of them. Sure they are cute and all, but collectible - not. Whats the point - every kid that gets one gets a freekin web site to go with hit - an innovative life long (yes life long) web site with routine updates on "life" and all kinds of things.

So why can't a grading company offer every card a nifty web site, a nice scan, high resolution image if you want to click on it, tracking of ebay activity for the card, registry position, and maybe even a buy \ sell click. Its a "web site" and it probably would cost all of $2 to implement.....I'll bet they could sell it for more then $2 too.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jim,

That's the thing if the grading company implemented ideas that showed they were seriously concerned with the hobbyists, the hobby would be healthier and more people would submit cards for grading.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Eric B

Take a picture of the slabbed card, front and back, and allow you to pull up the pic so you can tell if you are getting what was slabbed. Could also help with peer review.....oops, guess that isn't going to happen.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Eric:

I like that idea, but let me ask:

Are you prepared to pay more for that service? In terms of time, overhead, storage space, and profit, I would imagine that it cost cost somewhere between $2.50 and $5 more per card. I would pay it, but that's just me.

-Al

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Posted By: Jimmy

Peter, this maybe the time for real change, I have invested a lot in PSA and SGC and even started buying more ungraded cards this past year - so why can’t they reach out and do more then just a few shows a year to explain how the process works - the hands on technical approach may work well to get new collectors in the hobby

and Al

most of the counterfeits are people opening the PSA cases and slipping a fake card in its place - for the past few years some of these cards were coming out of Japan. There is just too much going on, read some of the posts and you will know what I mean about too many reprints and other problems.

Jimmy

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Posted By: Jim VB

I think, generally speaking, authenticators in any field don't really want you to know what steps they take. If they did offer a clinic explaining everything they do, or don't do, all the people in the front row would be the ones trying to beat their system.

I think it would be a very interesting topic, but I won't hold my breath.

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Posted By: Marc

Anyone familiar with arrowgrade.com grading service? I've seen some cards from them before, but I've never heard of them. The only thing I've found out is their short description from their website. Are they legitimate? Has anyone had any problems with them before?

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Posted By: Kevin Sacuier

""I think, generally speaking, authenticators in any field don't really want you to know what steps they take. If they did offer a clinic explaining everything they do, or don't do, all the people in the front row would be the ones trying to beat their system.""



Agreed.

As one who tries to describe what to look for, words must be well thought out. It's not so easy trying to please everyone yet not give a hint of how it's done. This is why, at times, only a pic can be shown.


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: boxingbaseballgolf33

Guys,

I don't expect them to do a step by step process, just a 15 minute talk at shows and then they can take questions which can be answered by them or not. The focus here is to get the companies making the money to improve the overall experience in collecting - other then sites like net54, are really the only place collectors can turn to. If they can set up computers and some of the equipment they use that might gain some interest to new collectors. What they do at shows is really nothing at all - take your fees and cards. If you know some of the workers that is great then you could have a talk, but most people do not get that chance.

Jimmy

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Posted By: Marc S.

a few issues of modern product with inserts (per box) with cards being pre-slabbed. And a lot of what comes out from Topps Pristine and others come in sealed plastic tombs with holographic seals over them....so basically you can say that Topps has already been leading the charge in having essentially graded cards in its boxes of new product.

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Posted By: Steve f

Frank, The graders would still be in business... If Topps, Fleer etc sold packs pregraded then folks would be busting out those countless 10's and resubmitting in hopes of getting a bump down. Then they can say they have a grade 9!

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Posted By: Anonymous

Frank, you didn't include a smiley face w/your post so I'm not sure if you were joking or not. If you were, good one! This wouldn't put the grading companies out of business, though. Sometimes those slabs get nicked, scratched or cracked. Soon collectors would be sending in the slabs themselves to be graded. : )

Howard

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Posted By: barrysloate

Okay, I've said it before and I'll say it one more time.

I think the grading services should stop grading cards and spend all their time authenticating. I think their ability to detect alterations, trimming, and counterfeiting is a monumental contribution to the hobby. But I think their system of grading is a joke.

Any collector/dealer with a little experience can learn to grade his own material. Everyone would learn how to do it right because overgraders would soon find themselves out of business. Collectors would quickly recognize who the good graders are and who are the bad ones.

It would also end the practice of endless resubmissions, the influence that major submitters have on the final grade (don't tell me it doesn't happen), and it would likely do away with the registry, the single greatest cause of runaway prices.

Collectors would still have all the protection they need to combat the scoundrels in the industry, and would learn a valuable skill themselves. And prices would probably level off a bit and the hobby would be more fun again.

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Posted By: Rob

Barry,
I agree with what you state above would be best for the hobby. But IMO the grading companies aren't in it for the good of the hobby - they're in business for the almighty dollar bill. Handing out low grades and getting resubmissions in effect gets them twice the money for grading the same card.

For buying online, sometimes a grade helps. There could be a hairline crease that makes an otherwise NRMT card become a VG-EX card. I'm sure we've all paid NRMT prices for a raw card only to receive it in the mail and its got a teeny tiny surface crease/wrinkle that didn't show up in the scan.

But for the most part, I agree. I just want a service that will authenticate a card. I can grade it myself.

Now, would this authentication service be cheaper than the full-out grading service? If a company charges $15 to grade a card, would authentication be, say, $10? Would authentication tell you a card is trimmed or has paper loss or recoloring? Or just that the card is a real card?

Rob

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Posted By: barrysloate

Rob- you make a very good point which I agree with, and that is the grading companies have a bottom line too. But if that's what grading is all about then I think the consumer may eventually lose confidence in the whole process. Time will tell, but I have predicted for a long time that something major is going to happen- I'm not smart enough to know exactly what it is- that will ultimately change the way the grading system operates, and likewise have ramifications on the baseball card hobby.

I will liken it to what is happening to the real estate and mortgage business today; that is, the realization that something very wrong was going on and we all seemed to miss the warning signs.

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Posted By: Steve f

Then an affordable apartment on Manhattan isn't just a pipe dream!

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Posted By: barrysloate

An affordable apartment in Manhattan- those days are over!

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Posted By: Bob

I agree with Barry, I wish the grading companies would spend their time autheticating cards instead of assigning grades. Grading is too subjective and the detection of trimmed, bleached, colored, restored, altered or counterfeit cards needs to be given priority. That said, I am sure the post war collectors would disagree as the grading game is too important to many of them.

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Posted By: peter chao

Limiting the role of grading companies makes sense from the hobby perspective, but not from the seller's perspective. It's not just postwar dealers that would object it's almost every seller. The dealers are making money from buying raw and then submitting the card to the grading companies. Without that "value added" many of the dealers would be out of business.

Peter C.

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Posted By: JimB

I like what Barry has to say, but I don't think it will come to pass. Partly because it is not in the interest of the grading companies for reasons already mentioned and partly because one of the gifts that grading gave the hobby was a standard system(s) of grading. Dealers were all over the map before slabbing. A person would never know what they were getting in mail order before standard grading (and the internet). As a rule, they undergraded when buying and overgraded when selling. And the poor graders, like Fritsch did not parish.

I would suggest that the grading companies offer an option of simple authentication which varifies the card a authentic and unaltered, and a separate grading option. Then if someone just wants their card authenticated but prefers to assess condition themselves, they can do so without interference. My guess is most of those cards which are only authenticated will eventually be resubmitted for a grade because that is what the market wants in general, but the option is nice. Then those who want to quibble with dealers about the actual condition of the card can do so. It would also benefit the grading companies because they will get multiple submissions of the same card in most cases.
JimB

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Posted By: Jim Dale

In the dot com era a small company employed about 40 people to run scanners, insert images and entered more then 600,000 catalog items into a web site in 8 weeks. Why the card companies can not offer a thumbnail, actual size and high res. scan on a simple web page for the consumer is beyond me - it does cost money but NOT a lot of money.

Cardtarget.com tracks ebay auctions for a select group of cards (etopps) and I'm guessing someone could script with ebay the monitoring of all of the same cards in all available grades and even raw and have it disclosed on that same web page - once the script is written the cost of the service is nominal. The issue is people not labeling cards correctly - but common variations can be added to the script.

Both of these additions would have value to a collector or a person speculating on the value of his or her cards. They would cost very little to implement. Add to this registry links, perhaps owner links to other cards, etc...it would rock.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I agree my idea never will come to pass, it's just theoretical. I realize collectors demand a numerical evaluation but it would be a good skill to learn. Before grading we were all forced to grade our own cards, and it wasn't that difficult. Plus, while grading can be inconsistent, most items sold today are pictured on the internet so it would take some of the mystery out of the process.

Peter- while dealers do buy raw and then send the cards to get graded, couldn't you just buy a card raw for $10 and ask $15? There's still a profit built in. Again, I don't expect the system to change unless something forces it to.