Board's opinion on BST behavior

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Posted By: PC

I've purchased a lot of cards off the B/S/T, including from at least four of the posters on this thread, and have had a good experience every time. And while I agree with a lot in Seth's original post, I really do not think the B/S/T is broke (yet) so there's no need to fix it. I also do not see the need to single out a particular seller, especially when there are numerous others using the B/S/T for the same purpose.

I'm not happy about a lot of the overpriced stuff on the B/S/T, and while Jim may have listed some items for too much money, that's his decision ... they either sell or they don't. I actually think a lot of what Jim lists is priced reasonably, and he is flexible on price (even on the items that are reaonably priced to start). I can't say that for many sellers on the B/S/T, whose listings I just skip over.

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Posted By: leon

Actually since I spend the most time on the board I get 3 cents of an opinion. The BST isn't broken. I do agree with the sentiment behind Seth's view. This is a place for collectors to come and share cards, experiences, stories etc. It's the best place on the web for that, hands down. As for folks asking an arm and a leg for a card. More power to us . If it's more than market then it won't sell. With any hobby or business with this kind of money trading hands, and the passion of collecting mixed in, you will have issues. The BST is also a relatively safe place to trade (used in broader sense of the word). As far as I am aware in the last year and half only a $25 card has not been delivered, by Shane Killian, to another board member. He will not be allowed to come back until that transaction is made right. Also the BST is free so I sort of feel like saying "shut the hell up it's free". If you don't like it don't click on it. But I won't say that...it's just what I feel like saying. I know I am in disagreement with some folks about the frequency with which someone can post on the BST. There is no limit until it becomes detrimental to the welfare of the board. I see no one, including Jim, that is remotely close. Again, this is my opinion and my other moderator guys might not feel the same way. I also have no issue with anyone only posting in the BST pages and not on the main forum. I don't see any rule that says they have to. I am not making another rule either. Every rule needs to be enforced. I don't like rules for that reason as well as others. As far as someone buying something for $1 today and selling it to me for $500 tomorrow, whether they bought it on ebay, or elsewhere....all I would say to that is "thank you"......This is America and capitalism is our way of life..... I know I am a true collector though as I still get the tingle when I find something I need.....Last week it was a Sawyer Biscuit card of Hartnett off of the BST...from Jim......breast regards

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Posted By: Mike Peich

I enjoy this Board enormously, and have the generous Tim Newcomb to thank for guiding me to it a number of years ago. Now one of the first things I do each day is read the posts, and check to see if there is anything interesting on the B/S/T. The B/S/T has helped me learn about other sets and their values, discover who is collectiing which sets/cards, and sometimes uncover cards I need. The B/S/T experience is one of the reasons I enjoy this Board--it is not as impersonal as ebay, and I don't have to worry about paying an auction house VAT.

As a result of the cards I have acquired/discussed via the B/S/T I have met interesting people, and made new friends, e.g., the inimitable Bob Marquette, Bill Cornell, Scott Mosley, Keith O'Leary, Scott Brockelman, and, yes, even Leon. And, I have always had good transactions with Board members. Last week Jim Manos and I agreed upon a price for T222 dupes I had listed, and a T209 he had listed. It was a very smooth and amicable transaction, and we both felt good about the it. I have had similar dealings with the afore-mentioned members, as well as Brian McQueen (thank you, again, for helping me acquire some needed T222s), Joann (I still would like that Mullin T-3!), Don Johnson, and the list goes on.

I regard the B/S/T as a place where I can find difficult cards, as well as a community in which I can occasionally announce that I need assistance in finding items. I guess the key word from my perspective is community. I live in a small town where I interact commercially with a number of people who are also my friends. If they offer me an item that I feel is over-priced, I simply don't buy it. It doesn't ruin our friendship, and our community spirit survives, as it will regarding our Board's B/S/T.

Cheers, Mike

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Posted By: joe

Cat, unlike you I don't have extra cards to trade. Although I have been doing this for 25-30 years I was never one to get duplicates of cards I collect. Any cards I trade I would have to rebuy somewhere down the road. I finally made a trade with a board member where I traded a high grade card for a lower graded card of the same player along with some other cards that I needed. This was tough to do because I did like the original card. But it worked out and the other board member will be happy with the trade. Anyway if I post a want for a card I probably don't have a card to trade, usually cash.

Joe

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Mike: VAT instead of VIG; how Continental of you Doesn't quite convey the same spirit though.

I prefer the wide open BST thread concept. I've bought cards from and traded cards with many collectors here and haven't been disappointed yet. I reiterate: if the deal looks good to me, who cares what the person selling the item to me paid for it? Life is too short to get all bunged up over someone else's good fortune. I got all bummed out at the National at one point watching a dealer fleece a walk-in of a $2,500 card (that I really need) for $250 and let it ruin part of my evening, esp. when he refused to flip it to me at market price. Who did that benefit? Certainly not me and certainly not the walk-in.

I also see a lot of bashing here over what can only be termed style. If you don't like a seller's style, ignore him. Pretty soon the market will take care of any a-holes out there (I notice how much business we all do with Hager, Rosen, etc.).

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Posted By: Bob

When leon created the BST thread on this board, it was a God send because every now and then some card I need comes a calling. I agree with the previous posters that the transactions not only are beneficial but, as Mike pointed out, create friendships. Ebay is so impersonal that it is nice to work a deal with a fellow collector here. I try to post cards on the BST thread at prices which would be advantageous for me but would also be a good deal for the buyer. Ebay is a piranha pit where timing and perserverance are everything. I must admit I agree somewhat with the "hobbyist aspirations" but also agree with John and Adam that it is also capitalism at its best. Still, I don't like the market cornering, jack the price up for money sake, practice. But I understand that not everyone here is here for the cards and the history and the comaderie, some are here for the cash, period. I just don't like it, but I don't begrudge anyone doing it.

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Posted By: Brian

Nope

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Posted By: leon

Is not an option in this thread...i don't give a rat's patoot if you ask permission or not...It ain't happenin'...grow some bXXXXX....thanks


edited to say I just deleted two posts.....please don't make me delete more by being anonymous in this thread....Forewarned is fair warned....

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Posted By: Joe D.

seems like more and more threads on the general board are turning ugly.

more on topic:
I don't mind flippers at all. They tend to be more resourceful and agressive in finding items that I probably would never find myself. If they can make a profit... they deserve it.

I don't look to flip items- with the exception of occasionally finding something that seems as though it is offered at a rediculous price - I only buy what I am personally interested in. I do tend to change my mind on what I would like to collect... so I might sell an item I recently purchased. Most always I will look to make a little money on the transaction, for my time and effort -- and because I hope to have purchased under market value.

I don't see a problem with flippers or any collectors trying to make a buck.

jmho.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

So long as the seller accurately represents the card, I cannot imagine what the problem is with trying to make a profit. Noone here owes anyone else special treatment; if they want to discount for friends or board members they can, if they don't I don't see any moral imperative to do so. If you don't like the price, try to negotiate it or pass.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

As for BST board behavior, my only complaint is sellers who keep bumping their stuff to the top of the list ... Oh, yes ... and sellers that think I'm wasting their time asking what I believe is a sincere question. As for the first item, I encourage sellers to allow everyone their one, brief, shining moment at the top of the BST board. As for the second item, I choose not to spend my hard-earned cash on cards from sellers who think I'm wasting their time. That's the beauty of capitalism ... it has a built-in incentive for good customer service!

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Posted By: Will

I guess just posting quotes from other sources constitutes an expression of opinion. So, I called my wife and she brought them back to me so now I can quote from the b/s/t threads and express the following:

Forsale rare 1948 Leaf Kent Peterson August 4 2006
Sorry , had the wrong price on it.... August 4 2006
$275 OBO August 6 2006
How about $195 ?? August 7 2006
One item, 3 shills in 3 days. Just edit the original post and price it right without the hype.

Any offer's??August 4 2006, 11:16 PM
Come on people??
Bump and hype.

Point: Please try to minimize the bumps and eliminate the hype from b/s/t.

If your aunt had balls she would be your uncle...
Really don't care what you think...
Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last??
I will make it up to you in the future as I already did, but I don't forget.
Did you have something to say Brian??
Honestly, amateur hour is over
Warm and fuzzy statements from a seller.

Point: Why all of this personal stuff in the b/s/t? If is an attact or counter-attact, take it to the main board where it belongs.

I love the hobby as much as anyone but I do not collect.
I buy and sell cards as my hobby.
Point: Glad that was cleared up.

I would have to say it would be a board member?? Don't know but I bet the cxxxxxxxxr (seller takes my offer)takes the $ and tells me.
Stick it xx xxxx xxx I am not in the mood to ___ with your nickel dime bull**** today.
Your just xxxxxxxx( how about that to get by the***) stupid. You don't even have the balls to post your e-mail. Waste someone else's time.
This is why I read the b/s/t?

Point: The language is offensive. Complain about the content of e-mails to your home but post these in a public forum?

Lurker's summary for the b/s/t threads:
Don't bump too much, don't hype it and keep all the personal stuff out of it.

Regards all -

William R. List

edited to make the language less offensive and to remove some of my personal info (per advice from several)

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Posted By: Jim Manos

The quotes are offensive to some degree, yes. Why don't you post what was said before I responded in that manner. Those people drew blood first. You forgot to but ther offensive comments which were first. Lastly, if you keep pushing a guy and he turns and fights don't blame him for turning and fighting.

Will that post is so unfair.. look what was said to me first..I mean come on..So if someone gives you any sh i t . You have no backbone. Basically that is what your saying. I won't do that, you can. I actually thought I was pretty nice, could get alot worse than that.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

This is crazy. Most agree that the BST is great the way it is.

So why all the B.S. ?

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Posted By: Jim Manos

Man oh man.

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Posted By: leon

Thanks for posting your name. I would prefer you not put your family in a post but if you do it to yourself then so be it. I won't let anyone mention anyone else's family, unless it directly concerned a deal, under any circumstance. I have absolutley 0 tolerance for that. As for you posting what Jim said you are welcome to do that. You should post everything that led up to that though, in all fairness. It's not right to just get one side of the story. And could we please x out the profanity. We get the drift....thanks again and carry on .....(I might go edit some profanity...please help me on that issue)..

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Posted By: Jim Manos

I will only post every now and then, that will solve the problem. I will try to sell to people that I know what they need before it hits the board or ebay. Tryed to put the material there first but I have to much stuff and cannot handle the abuse. Yes it does make for alot of posts but 96.4 % of everything sold to board members in the last 6 months. I truely hope this thread can end, as I am throwing in the towel.

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Posted By: andy becker

well jim, since you are "throwing in the towel" i will buy it.....and relist it on bst for 5x what i paid for it

sorry, i couldn't resist.

guys (and gals) give jim a break....he's not that bad.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, did you say you were a Carolina grad?

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Posted By: Jim Manos

Did security training and graduated that afterwards at UNC. It just sounds better than being a dumb East Carolina Grad. Go Heel's

Oh, our golf team played in the Nat'l Championship at Yale in 1991 and our football team finished 9th in the country(thank you Jeff Blake 10-1) go Pirates also.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Okay... give me a few strokes and we will play for zeenuts.

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Posted By: will

Jim -
Some of my final thoughts on the issue:
As a seller, I found that the thicker my skin got, the thicker my wallet got.
Some of your responses were to counter, most were just mean-spirited and or foul. I said ALL of the personal stuff off the b/s/t. Not just yours. You seem to be more interested in defending and justifying and keeping lists of good buyers, than selling.
Free, unsolicited (and I'm sure)unappreciated business advice (applies to many):
Learn how to post images.
Get a separate e-mail account for your business.
Upgrade your public persona - how much business have you lost from your public defending/justifying/attacking/countering? You'll never know. Novice green spends just as well. You may be 100% correct about all of your opinions and positions - I just don't want to know about them from the b/s/t.

Regards all -

William R. List
(Leon - do you still need the rest of it?)
first pet's name - Pooch

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Posted By: andy becker

you shoulda been on the diving team....flipper.

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Posted By: Jim Manos

I would love to play with you anytime it would be fun.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Andy - that was a good one.


Jim... yeah, I guess its not too bright to challenge a golf captain to a wagered round. Especially considering how I golf.

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Posted By: Josh K.

well, we cant all be UNC grads Go Heels!

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Posted By: Will

"I give up... "
I doubt it...

"I will only post every now and then, that will solve the problem."
No, it won't. I don't care if every other post in all b/s/t threads is yours,
as long as they are unique, not hyped, not bumped by you and not used as your personal battlegrounds.

"... and cannot handle the abuse."
You are apparently doing o.k selling in a very competitive market, that uses disposable income, with no marketing overhead. It is my opinion that you have been abusing that free marketing mechanism. (Note to self - please sign off with all pertinent personal info). Suffer a little bit - you're not paying. Like complaining about a free meal.

"I truely hope this thread can end, as I am throwing in the towel."
So do I - and please post a scan of the towel.

Regards to all -

William R. List
Mother's maiden name - Koenig

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Wow ! Why not drag this out further.

Jim quit why keep going at him ? I just don't see the point.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Oh comeon, Will's posts are funny -- and Jim went to Carolina so he deserves it....

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Jeff,
I went to Carolina and it looks like Josh did tooooo, so what do we deserve? Other than another NCAA Basketball Championship, which we will probably win in the next few years.....

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

This actually might be a good time to hijack this thread.

Obviously, I went to Duke...

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

I went to Duke too, but only for grad school so I wasn't bitten by the Duke-UNC rivalry (not that there's any question which is the better school, but it ought to be better for all the dough they charge for it)

Tim

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Posted By: Ricky Y

I've not been an official member until recently so I can't speak for the past...so has the gist of the B/S/T forum changed over the years? And also how active is "trading" of cards? Perhaps a lot of actual trades do occur amongst the members offline that we don't see posted?

I've enjoyed the B/S/T so far. I have had nothing but pleasant dealings.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Tim, I went to Duke for law school and have been in full hatred of the heels since I can remember. I can surely give a pass, however, to any of them that also fancy vintage baseball cards. But that's where I draw the line....

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Posted By: Josh K.

Brian,

I did indeed go to Carolina. I will, of course, always hate dook (hey, I guess it is ok to hate after all ).

Oh, and dont sell the Heels short - Im expecting another basketball championship this season.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

just to drop a simple note of just how bad both of those schools
rank below the "GREAT" Michigan schools. Sorry to hear about
your past !

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Posted By: peter ullman

enough with the mushy fraternal collegiate nonsense...aren't we supposed to be roasting jimmanos1?

pete ullman

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Posted By: Martin Neal

Another Carolina guy here. I was there during the Bobby Jones, Kupchak, and Walter Davis years. Played a lot of basketball in Woolen gym. And Tim, Carolina is not that expensive!

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Posted By: anthony

for those of you that complain the price is more than you want to spend (so i drop the price out of kindness) then see you post it for more than what you paid me for it...I HOPE YOU GET BURNED IN THE DEAL.

im all for making a buck or two but the only selling i intend to do in the b/s/t anymore will be the ebay section. i too thought the b/s/t was for collector looking to fill their voids and not the dealers who buy up cards then turn around and sell them before they receive them in the mail. i guess its not that big a deal since everyone can do whatever they want with their cards, but it does get annoying once in awhile

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Posted By: barrysloate

I've actually had numerous discussions on this topic with both Leon and Brian McQueen, both who have encouraged me to sell as much material as I want on BST. While I do occasionally offer cards there, here is what made me a little uncomfortable. I sell baseball cards for a living, and all businesses need to incur some expenses along the way. Advertising is a good part of that expense, whether it is an ad in SCD, an auction catalog that has to be printed and mailed, a table at a show, or even a commission paid to an auction house if an item is consigned. What separates BST from all other venues is that it is a free lunch. Therefore, I told Leon that although I am happy to post on BST judiciously, at some point I begin to feel like a freeloader. Maybe I am too sensitive but I think there is a difference between a collector selling or trading some dupes and someone running a free business off the site. All the other issues, such as high markups, etc., don't really bother me because if you ask too much for something it won't sell; and if you buy something for a $1 and list it for $2 and someone takes it, that's pefectly legit. It's just the recognition that at some point a seller may be taking advantage of a free marketplace. I know Leon disagrees, but I do accept his position, too.

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Posted By: barrysloate

And yes, I forgot to mention that I did buy that 1873 Boston display off ebay and must say while it is a beautiful piece there are some mysteries to it. I thought it might be 11 Warren CdV's that were just placed in a display, but I don't think that is the case. It may in fact be 11 individual photos mounted on thin paper and put together as a prototype to reshoot for a cabinet or CdV. Interestingly, the Warren advertising is printed on the backs of the thin paper hidden from view. But because everything is glued down, I need to send it to my conservator for further investigation. Only bringing this up here because it was discussed earlier on this thread.

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Posted By: leon

First of all I think Jim M has taken enough abuse. He and I spoke this morning and he is going to change his tactics a little bit. Honestly, I told him I hope that he posts MORE on the BST pages. That way maybe I can buy something else that he has taken time to uncover and I can whittle him down to a price that is good for both of us. We spoke about profanity, on the board, which I am going to have less tolerance for, going forward. We spoke about having something in hand before trying to sell it, which he agrees is a better way to do it......so we discussed several things that were all good.

As for buying or selling on the BST I am saying again that if I see something on there that is what I feel is below market then I might buy it to put on my website. I suggest anyone selling on the BST remember that you might be selling to a "flipper" or collector. It's no different than on ebay, where I am prone to do the same thing. Guys, honestly, it's almost the only way I can afford to add to my collection anymore. On the other hand what I don't care for is someone telling me that they NEED something for their personal collection and I make a special deal because of that. Then a short time later they sell it. It's certainly their right to do that but they shouldn't say they NEED it for their collection then flip it a short while later. Again, it's ok.....but I would prefer them not telling me a story. For the record too I am all about helping collectors so if anyone sees anything I have and they really NEED it...ask me....I will often make it where it's attainable.....

As to Barry's comments I do understand completely and accept your views. I wouldn't mind a dealer posting stuff on the BST every now and then but most I talk to would prefer not to. As I have always maintained "anything in moderation probably isn't too bad"....

with kind regards,
moderator dude

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Posted By: barrysloate

Moderation is my philosophy of life too, as well as acting in good faith. And if someone says they need something and then decides to flip it, you know what...once they buy it they can do whatever they want. Maybe they found an upgrade, changed collecting directions, or just decided to make a buck. No harm, no foul.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Leon,

Now that you've opened up the door...

I really "need" that 4BH Kelly for my collection. I can only afford about $10K. I promise it wont be on ebay, Mastro's or any other auction house block at any time in the near future.


This BST is like auction houses, except with fixed prices (for the most part). I've seen people that work for auction houses buy stuff on ebay and then I see that same material in the auction house offerings.

It's all about timing and luck. If the card is up for auction on ebay for a week that would give everyone a fair opportunity to pick it up. If you weren't willing to bid high enough to win it on ebay why would you consider buying it on the BST for more cash? If the card was BINd on ebay and then being sold on the BST for a substantial amount over the purchase cost, then more than likely it was just a good deal and the lucky snot that picked it up has every right to profit on their good fortune. That person also takes the chance on the card being a reprint and having to hassle with a return and possible squabble about authenticity, etc. I think everyone knows the drill on this. Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes your the windshield.

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Posted By: Bob

In an earlier post I credited the BST space to leon but actually it was Elliot who started it so I tip my hat to him.
In these days of soaring prewar card prices, the BST space is invaluable and I encourage anyone to post cards there. There are also reasons to post certain cards on ebay so I will do both in the future.
As far as guys and gals saying they "need" some card and then turn around and flip it, all I can say is that I "need" certain of the E94 color variations and I promise that if I get them you'll never see them flipped. Well, maybe you should never say never but that master set is one I have spent untold time working on, despite constant requests that I simply keep the best card of each player for one "great" set and sell off all the rest. I don't see that happening in the near future.
Now back to the AL wild card race and GO TWINS!

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Posted By: leon

Couple more responses....

Barry- Of course if someone says they need something, get it, then upgrade and sell it so be it....you know what my thought was though. We could come up with an exception for every situation. It's the "intent" I care about and not being told they need it when they don't.

Fred- I should have said I will help with "things that are for sale". Mr. Kelly isn't.

Tbob- You are correct as Elliot did create the BST. It has been greatly modified to be the way it is today but it was definitely Elliots idea. For the record Elliot created this board too....and although we disagree on who posted first....it was his idea and I was one of the strongest backers of this format...as opposed to my friend (where is he anyway) Mike Williams creation of a board on Yahoo. That format wasn't as good as this one, imo...

regards....

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I try to make money on everything I sell or at least get something in trade that I'd rather own. One of the benefits of the BST is its lack of transaction costs. I am more likely to discount on an item posted here because it costs me nothing to list or sell it than I would be via ebay. Remember, that 25%-35% you spend at an auction house is money that the consignor never sees.

I am not sure if anyone has referenced this yet, but with the BST I am usually selling something here to someone I know and who is known to the rest of us, which makes it easier from both a trust perspective and a transaction perspective. If someone were to cheat or lie or steal on a transaction here, there are potential real world consequences to it should I decide to make the controversy public. The best ebay can do is a "ding" on their feedback record.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

am guilty of the "Doogie Hoser" to Leon thing he is talking
about. The problem can be for various reasons. Sometimes the
situation is more intend ,then intent. Immediately after one purchase ,a former member offered me 1500.00 more then what
I paid, knowingly. No brain surgery there. The other time
I had gotten a card that I wanted more. It sometime sucks to
lose something you just had gotten, if it is what it takes to get the "ADDICTION" done, uh.....hafta make decisions.Sometimes
the money isnt there , but the trade and cash coming your way is. The Mohave desert is booming more then Flint Michigan right now.With opening a new carpet store and possibly a restaurant
in a month or so, I have to be careful. The addiction at times
can push you to afford something , when the timing really isnt there. This at times is my case. Iam not feeling or saying that
these replies of yours are directed towards me , but with my
arm-hairs standing erect, I will respond for my own reasons.

Barry- you are correct .Changing collecting directions can
happen in a day ,a week ,month, etc.....many reasons could
follow. The problem for aged pre -war collectors like myself , we have had many issues in the past that some are now drooling over, do we really want them? are we thinking correctly? who
knows ?....part of the fixation and drama that goes along
with the hobby , I guess.

Adam- your points too, are right on.

T-BOb -though I admire your overachieving TWINS, they are not
going anywhere, so get ovet it. God bless Kirby ,but he isnt
aroung anymore to save those TWINS ! The Twins should had gotten Soriano at any minor league cost and filled that LF
spot that your often injured and almost forgotten l-fielder
has vacated. Our TIgers hit your DL'ed other #1 ,so youz aint
happening.

Back to you Leon- I still have those E106's you kindly sold
me, and they are my new collecting goal .I appreciate you
regardless of/or whatever you thought my intent was. You
stand as a guys-guy- this will always be your strong point
over the fort. Life is good !

One of these days , would somebody email me to teach me how
not to have long lines exceeding other lines ,while my computer shows them in line ?.....I stillem halfway computer retarded.

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Posted By: martin dalziel

Always good to see the many perspectives and good to be reminded that those perspectives come from ones lot in life, be it dealer, collector, flipper, whatever. Its all good in my opinion.

Barry, you may have cleared up something that has vexed me for some time regarding dealer activity on this board and on others I frequent, where people post 'wanted' or 'need' threads. I've posted 'want' threads and received little or no response - no problem, I've assumed that people didn't have what i was looking for, or because I was offering to buy vs. trade that they didn't want cash.

A couple of times I've happened upon a dealer site that had exactly what I was looking for, and was surprised that the said dealer had not responded to me about their inventory. In these cases i've assumed that the dealers just didn't have the time to look at the want threads, or perhaps the value of the cards didn't warrant the time to respond. With your response, I wonder whether some dealers just feel that its not appropriate to use a free want thread on a bulletin board as a means to move their inventory?

As a collector I welcome all and any leads.

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Posted By: Joann

Yes, a buyer can do whatever he wants with a card as soon as he owns it. I have given price breaks because someone needed it, like college students, need for card, whatever. I do this because that person has appealed to the universal connection we all have with cards and collecting, and to my sense of cameraderie within the hobby. If his collecting or financial needs change and he sells - even quickly - no problem. But if someone makes that appeal and then turns around to make his extra money - I have a problem. I will respond to fellow hobbyists and needs for cards and pricing. But if someone asked me to drop the price to allow him to make a bigger profit - of course I'd say no.

So the false pretenses basically take that money out of my pocket and put it in his - and I can't see any way that is fair, or capitalist, or whatever. If people do a lot of that, and it's considered fair game, no one will get or give any breaks at all - and that would be a shame. So yes, a buyer can do what he wants with a card as soon as he owns it. But if I had someone "take" me via emotional appeal just to increase his profit on a flip, I wouldn't sell to that person again at any price. Nor buy.

Joann