Ruth can do the impossible!

[Lordstan]

Carmelo,
Nobody accused you of a crime. Reread posts 13, 14, and 15. The three of us suggested that you introduce yourself, because when an anonymous person posts multiple suspicious Ruth signatures it makes us suspicious of them. We don't know you, so we are left to our imaginations. You responded to this perceived insult by hostility which was returned in kind.

Perhaps if you had started with...
Hi all, my name's Carmelo and I'm new here. I came over from GUU as I am starting to look at getting into vintage autos and such. I was looking for Ruth items and came across a couple of weird autos. First one that sold on ebay last month is (inset link and photo) Then I found this (inset link and photo) on the sports collectors daily site. They look identical to me. Any help would be appreciated.

That is a good new member first post asking for help. Some of the same stuff you said, but you left out the name, etc.

Additionally, even if you had posted the initial posts the way you did, if, in post 19, you had said something like...
Well, my name is carmelo and I came over from GUU(insert ID). Been a member over there for about 5yrs and am looking to move into older autographed type stuff. I found them here (insert link) and they looked very strange to me, so I thought I would ask.

Now you said some of the same things, but in a much more defensive way.

The point that we are trying to make to you is that we don't know you, your level of expertise, or your level of passion and respect for the hobby. If you don't introduce yourself, how could we?

What you will find here is that the forgers and scammers that are ruining our hobby really really really piss us off. If someone comes on here and acts in a way that could be suspicious, we will attempt to uncover the truth. Sometimes, that process isn't pretty. The unfortunate truth is that we have had our share of scammers come on and do exactly what you did and then it becomes clear they they were the forger.

Edit: I see that as I was writing this Jim had stepped in and wrote basically what I was trying to say. Not trying to beat up on anyone.

[Nyygameused]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Carmelo, I saw that before, but most probably didn't. As a few said before, there have been many scammers that have tried to set up shop here. They don't last long. MOST don't seem to introduce themselves and start talking about high end stuff or giving flat-out-wrong 'opinions'.

I think this topic is a great one, but has unfortunately been derailed by the defensive posture you have taken. My opinion: take a breath before you become like Scott. (Hi, Scott!)

Thank you deertick, I just wanted to be welcomed, I had no idea this site was full of scammers. But then again I'm new to the retro side of the hobby, maybe I was mistaken thinking open arms where awaiting me

[Nyygameused]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Carmelo,
Nobody accused you of a crime. Reread posts 13, 14, and 15. The three of us suggested that you introduce yourself, because when an anonymous person posts multiple suspicious Ruth signatures it makes us suspicious of them. We don't know you, so we are left to our imaginations. You responded to this perceived insult by hostility which was returned in kind.

Perhaps if you had started with...
Hi all, my name's Carmelo and I'm new here. I came over from GUU as I am starting to look at getting into vintage autos and such. I was looking for Ruth items and came across a couple of weird autos. First one that sold on ebay last month is (inset link and photo) Then I found this (inset link and photo) on the sports collectors daily site. They look identical to me. Any help would be appreciated.

That is a good new member first post asking for help. Some of the same stuff you said, but you left out the name, etc.

Additionally, even if you had posted the initial posts the way you did, if, in post 19, you had said something like...
Well, my name is carmelo and I came over from GUU(insert ID). Been a member over there for about 5yrs and am looking to move into older autographed type stuff. I found them here (insert link) and they looked very strange to me, so I thought I would ask.

Now you said some of the same things, but in a much more defensive way.

The point that we are trying to make to you is that we don't know you, your level of expertise, or your level of passion and respect for the hobby. If you don't introduce yourself, how could we?

What you will find here is that the forgers and scammers that are ruining our hobby really really really piss us off. If someone comes on here and acts in a way that could be suspicious, we will attempt to uncover the truth. Sometimes, that process isn't pretty. The unfortunate truth is that we have had our share of scammers come on and do exactly what you did and then it becomes clear they they were the forger.

Mark I don't know you at all but all I know is that your posts have restored my faith in this forum in the middle of all this madness.

We all aren't the same, I'm a 100% legit guy who responds very aggressively when attacked. But then again I would want to oust anyone looking to scam me or anyone else in my area of expertise (modern era yankees). So I get it, I just was not ready to be on the receiving end

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Nyygameused

I have respect for everyone on this forum because I know there is a plethora of knowledge on this site, I've stated this before during my short 30 or less posts now. Would you like to be disrespected and called a scammer knowing how much you and I seem to both love and respect this hobby? If you accuse someone of a crime, wouldn't you expect an innocent person or shout from the mountain tops?

No one called you a scammer or accused you of a crime.

Originally Posted by Nyygameused

While some of you may not respect he credibility of the site I'm coming from it does not take away from the fact that I'm not new to this hobby. I'm just new to this area, and that's why I was deferring to the knowledge on the board. I'm extremely disappointed with this thread but then again who am I right? Truly unfortunate

No one (from what I can tell) does not respect GUU. They are not nearly as welcoming toward new guys as we are - as I stated earlier, they largely ignore them unless they are purchasing something, and they also aren't as protective when it comes to forgeries, since they don't have to be - there isn't a modern autograph that comes close to the value of a Babe Ruth. So you are an unknown new guy, posting Babe Ruth forgeries, which we are sensitive about. I could see how you might feel more comfortable if we treated you from the outset as if you were a well-respected member of another forum, even if we didn't know that, but it's weird to me that you can't see why your posts have raised some eyebrows over here. Despite that, no one called you a scammer or a criminal.

If it makes you feel better, I'll go over to GUU with my 24-post count and respond to one of your threads. You can then either ignore me as everyone else will, or slap me around a bit.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Nyygameused

Mark I don't know you at all but all I know is that your posts have restored my faith in this forum in the middle of all this madness.

We all aren't the same, I'm a 100% legit guy who responds very aggressively when attacked. But then again I would want to oust anyone looking to scam me or anyone else in my area of expertise (modern era yankees). So I get it, I just was not ready to be on the receiving end

Glad I could help.
As has been said by Scott and Jim. Take deep breath and relax. Read more and you will learn some of the personalities on the board.

And to be clear. This site isn't full of scammers. Unfortunately, it appears more than previous, we have had our share attempt to come on board under the guise of innocent collectors who want our help. The same vigilance of the membership, that you experienced, usually exposes them pretty quickly.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

slap me around a bit.

Can anyone play?

[Runscott]

I should add that I am very impressed with the way Ken attempts to photo-match game-used stuff. That's something that all hobbyists should be demanding, and it's something that actually could easily be done for every single game-used item that is sold. As I associate that forum more with Ken than anyone else, I obviously have respect for it.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Can anyone play?

sure, but you have to have a GUU i.d., and you have to figure out what mine is. It isn't 'runscott'. We could do what the PSA forum guys used to do: when one of them would get banned, they would come over here and continue their fight - 2 guys with under-10 post count fighting about PSA-slabbed 1990's cards over in the main forum.

Hmmm....You and me with 20 or so posts, arguing about a Babe Ruth autograph over there....let's do it.

[Nyygameused]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I should add that I am very impressed with the way Ken attempts to photo-match game-used stuff. That's something that all hobbyists should be demanding, and it's something that actually could easily be done for every single game-used item that is sold. As I associate that forum more with Ken than anyone else, I obviously have respect for it.

Ok guys, maybe we should start anew, I've introduced myself and still am learning how to navigate this forum. I'm honestly looking to add a few authentic ruth items to my collection and seem to be uncovering an underworld that has 50+ Years for me to catch up on. I hope the first 20 or so posts on this thread can educate someone down the road

[JT]

Well, personally, I thank you for the warning concerning the Ruth copies.

Welcome aboard.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

sure, but you have to have a GUU i.d., and you have to figure out what mine is. It isn't 'runscott'. We could do what the PSA forum guys used to do: when one of them would get banned, they would come over here and continue their fight - 2 guys with under-10 post count fighting about PSA-slabbed 1990's cards over in the main forum.

Hmmm....You and me with 20 or so posts, arguing about a Babe Ruth autograph over there....let's do it.

Can I play the bad guy?

[Nyygameused]

Originally Posted by JT

Well, personally, I thank you for the warning concerning the Ruth copies.

Welcome aboard.

That's all I intended to do, thanks JT.

[Runscott]

The Ruth underworld is huge - it's much worse than I could ever have dreamed when I first started my search. It took me a couple of years of intense studying and research before I finally pulled the trigger on one. What I eventually decided was that, while most forgers are not great, there are some that are so good that I could not purchase a Ruth autograph simply based on the signature. When I was ready to pull the trigger on a typed letter on Ruth letterhead, I compared the type fonts of the letterhead and the typewritten letter, to other examples from the period, and didn't bid because of minuscule differences that probably didn't even exist. No cuts for me, no baseballs, no photos, and certainly no '33 Goudeys. But when I finally did acquire one, I was very confident.

Now I'm going through the same ordeal with Lou Gehrig, and I've even passed on examples that were priced right and had the go-ahead from two highly-respected experts on this forum. I think there are a lot of guys here who go about it the same way I do, so we are very protective of the hobby, and probably over-cynical when it comes to posts about the uber-autos.

You would be surprised how many fake Ruths are proudly posted here by new owners, and I bite my lip and do not respond. I've sent a few PM's instead, and gotten my ass chewed. It's a very sensitive subject.

[Nyygameused]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The Ruth underworld is huge - it's much worse than I could ever have dreamed when I first started my search. It took me a couple of years of intense studying and research before I finally pulled the trigger on one. What I eventually decided was that, while most forgers are not great, there are some that are so good that I could not purchase a Ruth autograph simply based on the signature. When I was ready to pull the trigger on a typed letter on Ruth letterhead, I compared the type fonts of the letterhead and the typewritten letter, to other examples from the period, and didn't bid because of minuscule differences that probably didn't even exist. No cuts for me, no baseballs, no photos, and certainly no '33 Goudeys. But when I finally did acquire one, I was very confident.

Now I'm going through the same ordeal with Lou Gehrig, and I've even passed on examples that were priced right and had the go-ahead from two highly-respected experts on this forum. I think there are a lot of guys here who go about it the same way I do, so we are very protective of the hobby, and probably over-cynical when it comes to posts about the uber-autos.

You would be surprised how many fake Ruths are proudly posted here by new owners, and I bite my lip and do not respond. I've sent a few PM's instead, and gotten my ass chewed. It's a very sensitive subject.

Scott my first authentic ruth item was a fan letter with a reply from ruth. I took the Same precautions as you. Needless to say I think you and I have the same understanding on ruth items as I have stood away from just autos, I simply look for complete package type items. I hope you can take a step back and realize I was looking to share an authentic ruth auto that is being replicated so none of us are taken in this scam.

[shelly]

There are a ton of people on this site from NY. In all the time I have been on this site I have never seen anyone use" MYMAN." Never used in a term of respect or disrespect.
It seems that people that I do respect feel that your not a bad guy. I will go along with them untill proven wrong.
I am sure if you are a modern day expert on the Yankee's that knowledge will help some of the people on here.

[Nyygameused]

Originally Posted by shelly

There are a ton of people on this site from NY. In all the time I have been on this site I have never seen anyone use" MYMAN." Never used in a term of respect or disrespect.
It seems that people that I do respect feel that your not a bad guy. I will go along with them untill proven wrong.
I am sure if you are a modern day expert on the Yankee's that knowledge will help some of the people on here.

My circles clearly don't intertwine with yours sir. Regardless, I don't think I can get the thread back on track after all this but I'll give it a try.

I found the original card, I think:

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/lot-209.aspx

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Nyygameused

My circles clearly don't intertwine with yours sir. Regardless, I don't think I can get the thread back on track after all this but I'll give it a try.

I found the original card, I think:

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/lot-209.aspx

I don't think the thread is that bad. You know our concerns and how we react to certain things, and we know who you are. Everything seems civil.

As an aside, I have been accumulating Ruth autographs, both authentic and also the best forgeries I could find, in a file (no cuts are otherwise blank cards). I went back to look at them and couldn't remember which ones I was certain were real I would like to build a file based on the opinions of forum members, but there is so much disagreement on 'real vs forgery', even here that I couldn't ask member to post the Ruths that they are '100%' sure are real (other than 'some' checks and legal documents), since there will be others here who feel 100% that the same signatures are fakes.

It would end up as a battle of Ruthian proportions, perhaps even Gehriguan or Mantleopic. Dimaggestic?

[djson1]

Originally Posted by Runscott

.....

You would be surprised how many fake Ruths are proudly posted here by new owners, and I bite my lip and do not respond. I've sent a few PM's instead, and gotten my ass chewed. It's a very sensitive subject.

Scott, don't bite your lip when you see things that are suspect. Since nobody is 100% accurate, it will help other members (especially the "proud owners") to know what may be suspect about their item. I know we don't like to piss on anybody's parade, but if it's a reasonable analysis, we would all love to hear it and share knowledge. I definitely like to hear from fellow collectors on why they think something is fake and it helps us stay away from such crap in the future (and save us some hard earned money!).

I hope that wasn't the case when I posted my 1931 Cubs ball with Hornsby and Hack Wilson. I only got 2 semi-opinions on here, so I was wondering if maybe somebody was holding back their negative opinion. I hope not!

[Nyygameused]

Originally Posted by Runscott

It would end up as a battle of Ruthian proportions, perhaps even Gehriguan or Mantleopic. Dimaggestic?

This was funny

I agree, just in my small time seriously looking for legit ruth stuff I've been amazed with the forgeries. I thought buying a hand written ruth letter was as solid as it gets. Thinking there was no way a forger could get handwriting correct. Then I come across the famous Gary cooper inscribed photo!

[shelly]

Jason, I would think that most people will honest and say what they think. I do agree with Scott when it comes to Ruth.
I have talked to who I feel are really tops at there game.There comments have been unless it is so bad, they are having the same problem everyone else is. So many bad Ruth's have been authenticated over the years you cant tell the bad from the good.

[Nyygameused]

For a beginner like me, this looks aweful but it's authenticated as an "early" sig. For me it's almost like saying "yeah it looks bad but it's good"......... Huh

[ATP]

So the one in this link the same as the first ones being discussed?

http://natedsanders.com/babe-ruth-au...-lot12446.aspx

[Nyygameused]

Originally Posted by ATP

So the one in this link the same as the first ones being discussed?

http://natedsanders.com/babe-ruth-au...-lot12446.aspx

Wowwwwwwwwww

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by djson1

Scott, don't bite your lip when you see things that are suspect. Since nobody is 100% accurate, it will help other members (especially the "proud owners") to know what may be suspect about their item. I know we don't like to piss on anybody's parade, but if it's a reasonable analysis, we would all love to hear it and share knowledge. I definitely like to hear from fellow collectors on why they think something is fake and it helps us stay away from such crap in the future (and save us some hard earned money!).

I hope that wasn't the case when I posted my 1931 Cubs ball with Hornsby and Hack Wilson. I only got 2 semi-opinions on here, so I was wondering if maybe somebody was holding back their negative opinion. I hope not!

I can think of two instances, both Ruth, where I contacted the owner via PM. In one case the guy had just bought a horrible ball for 1/3 of normal price. I warned him, hoping it had not yet been shipped. He was grateful. Another time I simply PM'd someone asking a couple of questions, as I already knew the guy was sensitive and uneducated. He went through the roof. He was ungrateful. Now I keep my mouth shut when a forum member posts something he has acquired, unless he asks for opinions. I have also contacted several auction houses letting them know that Ruths or early Mantles were forgeries. Not once has one of these been taken down, but I will continue to let them know - I think the AH owners actually believe me, but they have already signed on with a TPA and cannot contradict them.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ATP

So the one in this link the same as the first ones being discussed?

http://natedsanders.com/babe-ruth-au...-lot12446.aspx

Serious, it comes with a JSA letter?

Does anyone here actually know Spence? If so, they might want to buy him a beer and have a heart to heart.

[shelly]

That is the perfect example of what I was saying. Those two autographs where authenticated (experts) How in the hell can we say something is bad if those two items passed. I love the B and the A connected

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I can think of two instances, both Ruth, where I contacted the owner via PM. In one case the guy had just bought a horrible ball for 1/3 of normal price. I warned him, hoping it had not yet been shipped. He was grateful. Another time I simply PM'd someone asking a couple of questions, as I already knew the guy was sensitive and uneducated. He went through the roof. He was ungrateful. Now I keep my mouth shut when a forum member posts something he has acquired, unless he asks for opinions. I have also contacted several auction houses letting them know that Ruths or early Mantles were forgeries. Not once has one of these been taken down, but I will continue to let them know - I think the AH owners actually believe me, but they have already signed on with a TPA and cannot contradict them.

I would definitely want to know if the respectable people on here disagreed with an auto I posted. It happened a few years ago, and although I didn't want to hear it, that auto is in my "nope" box in the basement.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I would definitely want to know if the respectable people on here disagreed with an auto I posted. It happened a few years ago, and although I didn't want to hear it, that auto is in my "nope" box in the basement.

It could just be that lots of people looked at your autograph, thought it was fine, but didn't bother responding. I've posted lots of early Mantles that I thought would be interesting to forum members, and gotten no response at all, and I am certain they were real. I have also posted obvious Mantle forgeries that were authenticated, and gotten no response. But when a newer Mantle is posted (1990-2014) you always get a lot of response - they are obviously much more interesting.

[Nyygameused]

I've never seen footage of babe signing an autograph and the resulting image until now:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vT8v39c-288

:58-1:07 pretty cool

[JollyElm]

I've brought this up before, but it's still wild seeing him so comfortably write with his right hand. Those darn nuns!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Serious, it comes with a JSA letter?

Does anyone here actually know Spence? If so, they might want to buy him a beer and have a heart to heart.

Sure, if they'll fake the auto and the membership card why not the letter too?

And the printing on brown cardboard hides the remnants of the white background so they don't even have to tidy up the scan in photoshop.

Steve B

[JimStinson]

Both Lou Gehrig & Ted Williams both signed right handed too, Amazing that Probably the greatest left handed hitter of all time Ted Williams was a "Natural" Right handed person. When they asked him why he batted left handed , he didn't know and said that when he was a young boy the first time he ever picked up a baseball bat he batted "lefty"
________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Vintage Autographs For Sale Now on my Web Site
http://stinsonsports.com/autographs-for-sale/

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Both Lou Gehrig & Ted Williams both signed right handed too, Amazing that Probably the greatest left handed hitter of all time Ted Williams was a "Natural" Right handed person. When they asked him why he batted left handed , he didn't know and said that when he was a young boy the first time he ever picked up a baseball bat he batted "lefty"
________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Vintage Autographs For Sale Now on my Web Site
http://stinsonsports.com/autographs-for-sale/

I have played fairly competitive baseball and softball all my life. I play completely left handed. I write right handed. I kick right footed. .... I am not sure if its too unusual. I have played a lot of racketball too. I play it right handed. I think I am just confused.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have played fairly competitive baseball and softball all my life. I play completely left handed. I write right handed. I kick right footed. .... I am not sure if its too unusual. I have played a lot of racketball too. I play it right handed. I think I am just confused.

This is the first time that I have agreed with you one hundred percent.

[ATP]

To get back on point, just to make sure I understand, are we looking at potential copies of an original Ruth signature, all authenticated?

[Nyygameused]

Originally Posted by ATP

To get back on point, just to make sure I understand, are we looking at potential copies of an original Ruth signature, all authenticated?

If we can find a jsa loa for this:

http://natedsanders.com/babe-ruth-au...-lot12446.aspx

Then yes, if not it looks like this particular autograph has been copied to near perfection and is floating around out there.

[ATP]

Does this show it

http://natedsanders.com/babe-ruth-au...n-lot8832.aspx

[Deertick]

The card in post #2 is the original. I would be interested if the reverse had the same back as the others, or if the membership card is a later embellishment. The one on eBay states it is a reprint.

ALL of the 'brown' ones are digital copies.

JSA got it wrong in that Sanders auction.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Both Lou Gehrig & Ted Williams both signed right handed too, Amazing that Probably the greatest left handed hitter of all time Ted Williams was a "Natural" Right handed person. When they asked him why he batted left handed , he didn't know and said that when he was a young boy the first time he ever picked up a baseball bat he batted "lefty"
________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Vintage Autographs For Sale Now on my Web Site
http://stinsonsports.com/autographs-for-sale/

Ruth and Gehrig (natural lefties) were forced to write right-handed when they were children. Most left-handers were in those days. (My father was, also.)

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

Sure, if they'll fake the auto and the membership card why not the letter too?

And the printing on brown cardboard hides the remnants of the white background so they don't even have to tidy up the scan in photoshop.

Steve B

Steve, not really - you can verify the submission number on the letter. I don't know how to do it, but I'm sure someone here can figure it out. If it turns out that it is a legit JSA letter, I would think that calling something 'steel tip fountain' when it's actually a photocopy, would be grounds for dismissal;i.e-he should fire himself.

[Nyygameused]

Shameful indeed

[Runscott]

The evolution of the steep tip fountain pen has been quite dramatic.

Wikipedia claims that the laser copier idea didn't come about until the 1960's, but that's not what really happened....no, not at all. 'They' had apparently kept the process a closely-guarded secret for over twenty years. One of the team members was an avid Yankees fan and tested the new device using various player signatures. Like T206 printer scrap, some obviously survived. The age of the paper must have been what fooled Mr. Spence. Understandable.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Nyygameused

Thank you deertick, I just wanted to be welcomed, I had no idea this site was full of scammers. But then again I'm new to the retro side of the hobby, maybe I was mistaken thinking open arms where awaiting me

Welcome Carmello!

[Fuddjcal]

Welcome Carmello!

This post illiterates precisely the reason I never tried to buy a Ruth or Gehrig...Just kept buying Mantle Mantle Mantle. It was the only signature I could really learn and buy from 100-400 or so. There are so many Fakes across the board and PSA & JSA have made a mess of it. I don't trust them to do a competent job. The rubber stamper authenticator forgery ring has just put me in such a foul place regarding collecting, my eyes are hurting... I can't see buying another autograph.

If I ever do buy a Ruth or Gehrig, it would be from Richard or Jim PERIOD.

[RichardSimon]

Jim PERIOD is a good friend of mine and I highly recommend him.
Thanks for all your kind words Chuck.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Jim PERIOD is a good friend of mine and I highly recommend him.

Ha.
He was always my favorite class of school!

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Jim PERIOD is a good friend of mine and I highly recommend him.
Thanks for all your kind words Chuck.

Depends on the time of the month from my dealings with him.

Wait...where's my wife? Is she behind me?

Tom C

[RichardSimon]

The Comedy Club has arrived at Net54.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The Comedy Club has arrived at Net54.

Yea , Right !
___________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Vintage autographs for Sale on my web site
stinsonsports.com

[RichardSimon]

Good picture to post Jim, my all time favorite. Saw him perform twice at The Beacon Theatre in NYC, he was amazing.