Comments and thoughts needed re: PSA grading

[Sidepocket]

I would love to know your thoughts about PSA grading and their all too common reject of "min size". I posted this on the PSA board but of course it's their site and everyone has to be careful about criticizing PSA, so I'm hoping to get more insight here.

I cracked out these cards (along with several others) and subbed them hoping for some bumps. Instead I got what you see below. Five previously graded cards all rejected for size (well, one was for altered stock). How can this happen? Lack of quality control? Is the grading game rigged? Comments and advice would be appreciated.

BTW, I emailed them a week ago and have heard nothing. I also received nothing from them with regards to refunding my grading fees either by voucher or some other method. Very disappointing.

Before and after pics:






Don't have a "before" scan of this but it was a PSA 6:

[KCRfan1]

I'm sorry to ask the obvious, but do the cards measure correctly? Otherwise, resubmit, and you may just have to take what grade given. Too bad, nice grades already...

[Sidepocket]

I didn't measure them myself since they'd already been graded once.

[pokerplyr80]

That certainly is bad luck, unless you submitted another 500 cards with those 5. I know a lot of people crack out cards and resubmit as you did, but this is a good example of why I've always been afraid to.

I have had a card I sent in raw rejected for minsize. I guess it's a card that shows no signs of trimming but was miscut too short at the factory.

[esehombre]

I am not real familiar with the grading game or companies but i just want to make sure i understand this.

1) You submitted an already numerically graded card by PSA (presumably hoping for a half grade bump?)

2) They received the card that they had previously graded and then claimed they could not holder the card because it did not meet their own minimum size requirements?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Well different grader different results. Go to trial in court, different judge or jury different results. I always wonder why sellers say in ebay 'candidate for a bump, I may just send in myself' I never believe that because things like what happened to you can happen to them.

There is subjective eye appeal and can be a major difference of opinion, however you would think minimum size requirement is a very objective thing. They should give you an explanation. I have heard people resending cards several times so maybe you want to spin the wheel again...however I think PSA is pretty consistent these days so was surprised to see that if your story is true.

at least they should take your previous grades from the POP I always felt POP was more real in the 8s and above category in cards from the 50s but maybe there are more ghost 7s than I realized..

[GasHouseGang]

The main question I had was did you submit the PSA cards still in the graded holders? I wouldn't expect PSA to take cards they had previously graded, remove them from the holder, and then declare they weren't able to grade them. Is that what happened, or were they submitted raw?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

The main question I had was did you submit the PSA cards still in the graded holders? I wouldn't expect PSA to take cards they had previously graded, remove them from the holder, and then declare they weren't able to grade them. Is that what happened, or were they submitted raw?

he said he cracked them out...

[bnorth]

Best bet is to submit the cards again and see what happens. From what I understand you will not get the grading fees refunded because they did grade them.

Please let us know if the cards actually are small and if you are going to resubmit them and the results if you do.

I know the PSA people hate to hear this but a friend and a fellow board member sent in 2 counterfeit cards on separate orders and both came back as 9's. I acquired 2 of the same counterfeit cards that where also both cut slightly smaller than a real card. I sent both in with a group submission and both came back as 8's.

Sooner or later people will have to figure out what a horrible service they provide.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Best bet is to submit the cards again and see what happens. From what I understand you will not get the grading fees refunded because they did grade them.

Please let us know if the cards actually are small and if you are going to resubmit them and the results if you do.

I know the PSA people hate to hear this but a friend and a fellow board member sent in 2 counterfeit cards on separate orders and both came back as 9's. I acquired 2 of the same counterfeit cards that where also both cut slightly smaller than a real card. I sent both in with a group submission and both came back as 8's.

Sooner or later people will have to figure out what a horrible service they provide.

what cards were the counterfeits?

[MattyC]

If you submit them again, some or all will get in holders. If you submit the ones that remained yet a third time, another one or two will get in holders, and so on. It is just the nature of the game. There is far more subjectivity at play than we at the collector end would like to think. I and many guys I know over the years have had many, many cards take several tries-- but eventually the card wound up in the desired holder or close to it. Hope that helps allay any anxiety regarding your initial results. I recall how I felt the first time that happened to me-- but the cards eventually graded out fine.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Sidepocket

I didn't measure them myself since they'd already been graded once.

I would suggest getting out a ruler and measuring the cards. That will answer you question about the card size very easily. Perhaps I'm telling you something you already know, but minsizerq means the card did not meet the minimum size dimensions. The cards may have been part of a presentation set, or vending box, and may not have been pulled from a wax pack.

Measure them out and let us know the dimensions. If the cards measure out a bit small, no need to resubmit. Wasting money at that point.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

If you submit them again, some or all will get in holders. If you submit the ones that remained yet a third time, another one or two will get in holders, and so on. It is just the nature of the game. There is far more subjectivity at play than we at the collector end would like to think. I and many guys I know over the years have had many, many cards take several tries-- but eventually the card wound up in the desired holder or close to it. Hope that helps allay any anxiety regarding your initial results. I recall how I felt the first time that happened to me-- but the cards eventually graded out fine.

This crazy behavior is the problem. It proves either the graders don't have a clue what they are doing or PSA is straight up scamming people by rejecting cards they know will get submitted again.

Either way how do people keep falling for their tricks. PT Barnum wouldn't even believe this scam and how well it has worked.

I do understand the need for grading companies and think they are a good thing if done correctly.

[glynparson]

You do not get charges a grading fee. You do if they deem it trimmed but not if they label min size. So it is obviously not some sort of scam.

[Sidepocket]

I emailed PSA a week ago regarding vouchers for the "min size" cards and haven't heard a word.

[Exhibitman]

This minimum size thing is BS. The card is either trimmed or as issued. If the latter it should be slabbed. This isn't precision machined aerospace parts we are dealing with. There will be variation.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Best bet is to submit the cards again and see what happens. From what I understand you will not get the grading fees refunded because they did grade them.

Please let us know if the cards actually are small and if you are going to resubmit them and the results if you do.

I know the PSA people hate to hear this but a friend and a fellow board member sent in 2 counterfeit cards on separate orders and both came back as 9's. I acquired 2 of the same counterfeit cards that where also both cut slightly smaller than a real card. I sent both in with a group submission and both came back as 8's.

Sooner or later people will have to figure out what a horrible service they provide.

i would like to see these cards as well....

[glynparson]

By credit card it simply was not charged for the minimum size cards. They used to issue vouchers they now just don't charge the card for minimum size, miscue,and do not grade issues. For checks or money order I don't know about the vouchers as I always just give them plastic makes it easier.

[Rookiemonster]

Maybe you cracked them open and did a little work on them and PSA noticed .

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Maybe you cracked them open and did a little work on them and PSA noticed .

Really, That is a serious allegation on you part.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Really, That is a serious allegation on you part.

It is and per the rules has garnered his name under his user id....per the rules.

It is my belief that folks cracking cards don't usually work on them between cracking them out. My guess is they work on them before they start trying to get them in holders. Buy big bordered cards....

[Rookiemonster]

Hey I really didn't mean much by it you asked for a option this seems like the most logical unless they left your sight between cracking them open . Or PSA is just making things up as they go . These are the only two real senarios . Either one would not surprise me . Sorry if I offended you in any way

[swarmee]

Well, people who trim cards don't normally post on industry chat boards when they doctor cards and get caught. These cards were posted on the PSA chat boards before being removed from their cases and with the grades they already had and being the best of their grades in his collection, likely deserved bumps.

It is completely feasible that originally the tolerance accepted from PSA to grade a card changed over time, and that these cards ARE short, despite already being holdered. You will see a lot of discussion the the 1975 Topps Mini thread discussing all the "short" cards that were holdered, and how they wouldn't be graded now, despite factory cuts.

Welcome to the board; don't joke about fraud like that. ;-)

[Sidepocket]

These cards weren't trimmed. My concern, as echoed by many PM's I received on the PSA message board, is what in the world PSA is doing? To spend $15 per card to get previously graded, gorgeous cards back as MIN SIZE, just to play some game with PSA and keep resubmitting til they pass inspection, is horrible service. And I think a recent development. A few years ago I cracked a PSA 7 Montana rookie, resubbed it, and it came back a 9. That was about a $600 resub. I know grading is subjective, and a very sharp 7 (which the Montana was) can have very minor differences from a 9, but this whole MIN SIZE thing reeks of bad quality control and/or review procedures. Or, even worse, a process to bump profits. BTW, I subbed these under the 15 free subs with a membership renewal, so there is no charge to refund. If they don't give me vouchers, then that's a waste of about $65 to get a "try again another day, and don't forget to pay us again" result.

[mybestbretts]

I have received back a lot of those Minsizero. If I knew why I would tell you. I have measured and they must be off by so little. I sent in 10 Ripken Fleer rookies that came from the same case and 8 graded and 2 came back with the Minsizero. I have received back altered and the best one was one marked "trimmed "and I called them and asked how a hand cut card could be trimmed .... they said send it back .... it got graded.
This is just my personal opinion, but when I have sent in old cards, I really am more interested in getting them slabbed to protect them then I am the grade.
So I would rather, in that case, to have the option of having it slabbed with the "altered", miscut, etc. It really irritates me to get them back, after all not that many of 40's to 50's or older cards were made with PSA in mind. IMHO.

[swarmee]

I always check my pop to see whether all cards get holdered before they ship them back to me. I use a credit card that generates an email any time I purchase something for more than $250 on it. So when PSA completes the order, charges my credit card, I know the scores have popped. I had two in my recent shipment of 100 cards (1900-1930 era) that originally were originally trimmed or minsize that I stopped the shipment and asked that they holder. They came back as a 4 and a 4.5, I believe.

[mybestbretts]

I did not know that and I always know my grades before they ship them so I will ask for them to be slabbed regardless.
Tks

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I always check my pop to see whether all cards get holdered before they ship them back to me. I use a credit card that generates an email any time I purchase something for more than $250 on it. So when PSA completes the order, charges my credit card, I know the scores have popped. I had two in my recent shipment of 100 cards (1900-1930 era) that originally were originally trimmed or minsize that I stopped the shipment and asked that they holder. They came back as a 4 and a 4.5, I believe.

It is stories like this that makes me hate PSA and call their business a total scam. How can 2 cards be trimmed or not meet minsize and then magically turn into a 4 and a 4.5 because the customer simply asks. Obviously the cards did not magically change.

[mybestbretts]

Here is one of my "altered". Don't you think I would have wanted this slabbed? I don't think the majority of people submitting are dealers.