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  #51  
Old 02-24-2017, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
There is a guy that is active in the hobby who had a 1970 Topps Nolan Ryan bump from a PSA 9 to a PSA 10. A $36,000 increase at the time simply because PSA rendered a different and more favorable opinion. When he got the email or call that they were going to charge his credit card more because the value of the card was higher than what service level it was submitted under you really think the first thing that crossed his mind is man I am sucker. You have to be kidding with this statement.

I don't have any cards in this price range but I promise you this that if I ever send in a card and get contacted by PSA saying I owe them more money, the first thing out of my mouth is going to be Woooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!
That right there is a joke in-itself. They not only admitted to not correctly grading the card the first time, but double-dipped on him grading fee wise. Did the card magically get better during it's time away from PSA? C'mon.

The value of PSA cards are vastly over-inflated and are not even remotely superior in quality to anyone else's grading. The main reasons you have the demand you have is their set registry, they are a publicly traded company, and they do coins. Unfortunately none of those things actually has a direct correlation to my cards being graded in a more accurate manner or being of a better quality than another grade from another company. It's a case by case basis and if I am a true collector (I'm not) then I'd want to individually inspect any card I'm buying before I buy it no matter what holder or grade is on it. I wouldn't just blindly buy something in a PSA holder just because.
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  #52  
Old 02-24-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ngnichols View Post
That right there is a joke in-itself. They not only admitted to not correctly grading the card the first time, but double-dipped on him grading fee wise. Did the card magically get better during it's time away from PSA? C'mon.

The value of PSA cards are vastly over-inflated and are not even remotely superior in quality to anyone else's grading. The main reasons you have the demand you have is their set registry, they are a publicly traded company, and they do coins. Unfortunately none of those things actually has a direct correlation to my cards being graded in a more accurate manner or being of a better quality than another grade from another company. It's a case by case basis and if I am a true collector (I'm not) then I'd want to individually inspect any card I'm buying before I buy it no matter what holder or grade is on it. I wouldn't just blindly buy something in a PSA holder just because.
The worse one, that I have heard of, was a member on here who resubmitted a PSA 4 that came back a 7!

I could, maybe, understand a 1 grade bump, but a 3 grade bump is something that should never happen, imo.

As someone told me once on here, PSA really means, Please Submit Again.
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  #53  
Old 02-24-2017, 09:13 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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I assume they don't do anything more special with a more valuable card than they do with a lesser one.
Well they sure as hell don't look harder for signs of restoration...
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  #54  
Old 02-24-2017, 09:16 AM
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well they sure as hell don't look harder for signs of restoration...
lol.

Last edited by irv; 02-24-2017 at 09:17 AM.
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  #55  
Old 02-24-2017, 09:58 AM
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Really would be cool if these companies would be more transparent. You think that would be important in a hobby like this. How does one even become a card grader? Are there any former or current graders on this fourm?
I wouldn't count on any current graders publicly acknowledging their position on a forum. Imagine the PMs they would get with cash incentives to bump a card.

As for the SGC prices my guess is the higher rate is due to the risk of damaging the card. But the chances of me sending a 10k plus card before the fee increase to SGC was very low. I would put them at just above 0 now.
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  #56  
Old 02-24-2017, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by irv View Post
The worse one, that I have heard of, was a member on here who resubmitted a PSA 4 that came back a 7!

I could, maybe, understand a 1 grade bump, but a 3 grade bump is something that should never happen, imo.

As someone told me once on here, PSA really means, Please Submit Again.
I submitted a 1961 Fleer Bob Cousy that went from a '4' to a '7'. Im sure you are referring to someone else though, as not too many people know about mine. In all honesty, the '7' was the correct grade - it was not a '4' originally. I had it graded, and knew the card looked WAYYYYYY better than a '4'.
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  #57  
Old 02-24-2017, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
There is a guy that is active in the hobby who had a 1970 Topps Nolan Ryan bump from a PSA 9 to a PSA 10. A $36,000 increase at the time simply because PSA rendered a different and more favorable opinion. When he got the email or call that they were going to charge his credit card more because the value of the card was higher than what service level it was submitted under you really think the first thing that crossed his mind is man I am sucker. You have to be kidding with this statement.

I don't have any cards in this price range but I promise you this that if I ever send in a card and get contacted by PSA saying I owe them more money, the first thing out of my mouth is going to be Woooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

Everybody in the hobby will turn a blind eye to this because so many chase grades and because - hey, we can be the beneficiary as well - but ultimately the situation you just described is a text book definition of conflict of interest.
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  #58  
Old 02-24-2017, 10:25 AM
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Everybody in the hobby will turn a blind eye to this because so many chase grades and because - hey, we can be the beneficiary as well - but ultimately the situation you just described is a text book definition of conflict of interest.

Please elaborate. The person I am referencing is just a collector who was fortunate enough to buy a card they felt was under graded and paid money to have PSA look at it again. It worked out in this case. There are plenty of cards that get sent in and returned with the money kept.
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  #59  
Old 02-24-2017, 10:30 AM
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Please elaborate. The person I am referencing is just a collector who was fortunate enough to buy a card they felt was under graded and paid money to have PSA look at it again. It worked out in this case. There are plenty of cards that get sent in and returned with the money kept.
Its quite simple. PSA graded a previous 9 as currently 10. As such, they gained financially by being able to charge more than if it had stayed a 9. They had clear, direct financial incentive to increase the grade and benefitted monetarily because of it. The grade may or may not have been warranted - but it matters not in the least. The conflict of interest is there.
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  #60  
Old 02-24-2017, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 View Post
I wouldn't count on any current graders publicly acknowledging their position on a forum. Imagine the PMs they would get with cash incentives to bump a card.

As for the SGC prices my guess is the higher rate is due to the risk of damaging the card. But the chances of me sending a 10k plus card before the fee increase to SGC was very low. I would put them at just above 0 now.
The higher rate is because they are greedy like PSA.

I understand that me being able to walk in to Beckett and get a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle graded on the spot for $50 is an immense value, BUT charging someone $1,000 or whatever for the same process is an absolute ripoff and a joke. Where the happy medium is.....I don't know, but I know that I'm getting a better overall deal with price and turnaround time with Beckett being in my back-yard.
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  #61  
Old 02-24-2017, 10:46 AM
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[quote=Leon;1634787]It has been done for years.

Go get a coin graded by PCGS and this is their top tier..$250 + 1% of value ..A 2 million dollar coin would be $20,250 to grade....


Leon, I'm not picking on you personally but, just because something has been done a certain way for years doesn't make it right, or mean that it should be continued.

Been a CPA my entire adult life and the only real thing a CPA does, that no one else can, is give their opinion about someone's financial information. The operative word is "opinion", which is all it ever is or can be. These financial statement "opinions" are done so owners/others know where they stand as far as the financial state of their businesses and affairs but, they are also extremely critical when people go to buy or sell companies in determining values and price for such transactions. Pretty much what a TPG does when they give an opinion on a card's grade so the owner knows what shape it is in, and can also use that opinion to assist in determining the value of it for sale.

As a CPA, I am bound by professional ethics and rules to act in a completely independent and ethical manner. I am strictly PROHIBITED from doing anything as a CPA on a contingency basis, which is exactly what giving an opinion on a card, and then charging someone for that opinion based not on the actual work performed but, the perceived value of the card, is! The reason a CPA is not allowed to provide a financial opinion based on a contingent fee is because if they did, they would no longer be considered "independent" of the people/company they were doing the work for in the first place. In other words, my "opinion" would be considered tainted due to my not being independent and the "opinion" would be deemed worthless.

The only reason we haven't held these TPG companies to similar standards is not their fault, it is the collecting community's fault in not demanding it of them.

BobC
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  #62  
Old 02-24-2017, 10:51 AM
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Sgc is about a 45 minute drive from my house. They are great guys and give fantastic customer service. The owner is accessible and friendly. They are consistent (even if I don't always agree with the standards, at least they follow them). And finally, their holders are so much nicer. As an investor, psa gets more money (for now anyway), but as a collector, I like looking at my cards, and their holders really make them pop. Look at these two similar Cobb's side by side. Can anyone even attempt to argue that it looks better in a psa holder???
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  #63  
Old 02-24-2017, 10:52 AM
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I wasn't defending the practice and I agree with you. I was only pointing out it has been being done for years. I am guessing CU has a few lawyers on retainer so I doubt it's illegal and I agree it seems like a conflict of interest to me too.

[quote=BobC;1634834]
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Originally Posted by Leon View Post
It has been done for years.

Go get a coin graded by PCGS and this is their top tier..$250 + 1% of value ..A 2 million dollar coin would be $20,250 to grade....


Leon, I'm not picking on you personally but, just because something has been done a certain way for years doesn't make it right, or mean that it should be continued.

Been a CPA my entire adult life and the only real thing a CPA does, that no one else can, is give their opinion about someone's financial information. The operative word is "opinion", which is all it ever is or can be. These financial statement "opinions" are done so owners/others know where they stand as far as the financial state of their businesses and affairs but, they are also extremely critical when people go to buy or sell companies in determining values and price for such transactions. Pretty much what a TPG does when they give an opinion on a card's grade so the owner knows what shape it is in, and can also use that opinion to assist in determining the value of it for sale.

As a CPA, I am bound by professional ethics and rules to act in a completely independent and ethical manner. I am strictly PROHIBITED from doing anything as a CPA on a contingency basis, which is exactly what giving an opinion on a card, and then charging someone for that opinion based not on the actual work performed but, the perceived value of the card, is! The reason a CPA is not allowed to provide a financial opinion based on a contingent fee is because if they did, they would no longer be considered "independent" of the people/company they were doing the work for in the first place. In other words, my "opinion" would be considered tainted due to my not being independent and the "opinion" would be deemed worthless.

The only reason we haven't held these TPG companies to similar standards is not their fault, it is the collecting community's fault in not demanding it of them.

BobC
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  #64  
Old 02-24-2017, 10:56 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe SGC guarantees the grade on their card. The potential liability from grading a very valuable card is much higher than the potential liability from grading a $25 card. That, and the cost of insuring the card while in their possession is also higher. I'm sure this explains at least part of SGCs cost structure.
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  #65  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:12 AM
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Right, the rationale between charging more for a higher declared value is that the TPG's guarantee the authenticity of the card and the grade. (I know folks will argue about the WWG Dimaggio since it looks like PSA isn't backing off the 7, but let's not get into that here.) Therefore, if the TPG is incorrect, they have to pay for the difference in the value of the card between the correct and incorrect grades or entire value if the card were not authentic. You can think of this as a kind of "insurance," so if the TPG has a higher liability on the card, it would only be fair that they would charge more for that. For example, I believe SGC may have had to pay out due to incorrectly authenticating a few D350-3 cards a couple of years ago including a Ruth (Link) which could have cost them tens of thousands of dollars. (As a result of this, I believe SGC is now no longer putting many stamped back variations on the flip.) Therefore, it seems justified to me that a TPG take higher fees for a 10K card than a $10 card due to these liability issues. In addition for higher dollar cards, I believe that the TPG does spend more time with the card. I remember on the PSA forum, in one thread (Link), SGC did not certify the grade for the card because it would be very valuable with that grade, so they wanted another grader to confirm the grade on that card before they allowed the grade to pop. And that grader was on vacation for that week, so the submitter would need to wait a little longer to receive the their card back even though they paid for a 2 day service level. So it is both greater liability and greater attention to the more valuable cards that factors into the higher service fees.

I just wanted to add that Beckett actually does not charge a different service fee for the declared value of the card. They only charge different fees based upon turnaround time. Only PSA and SGC charge different fees based upon declared values. So you can say it can be a business decision by the TPG also.

Last edited by glchen; 02-24-2017 at 11:17 AM.
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  #66  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:16 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe SGC guarantees the grade on their card. The potential liability from grading a very valuable card is much higher than the potential liability from grading a $25 card. That, and the cost of insuring the card while in their possession is also higher. I'm sure this explains at least part of SGCs cost structure.
Both PSA and SGC have a guarantee on their grades however neither company buys back as many cards as they should however SGC is probably better at honoring their guarantee. I know they cannot possibly be worse than PSA in this regard. Anyway, if the graders are doing their job then there should be no reason to have to offer a guarantee on their opinions.
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  #67  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:34 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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has anyone on this board ever enacted the PSA guarantee and was compensated?
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  #68  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:38 AM
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has anyone on this board ever enacted the PSA guarantee and was compensated?
I purchased a card from a collector/seller that had a wrinkle that was either missed or happened during the sealing process. I worked with him and PSA and he was compensated fairly. It stunk for me because it was a Pop 1 PSA 9 and I sold my other highest copy as it was being mailed to me. A real bummer.

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  #69  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:39 AM
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Its quite simple. PSA graded a previous 9 as currently 10. As such, they gained financially by being able to charge more than if it had stayed a 9. They had clear, direct financial incentive to increase the grade and benefitted monetarily because of it. The grade may or may not have been warranted - but it matters not in the least. The conflict of interest is there.
Agreed!! Even more so in the fact, that if you were to cover up the flips, I doubt very seriously you can spot out a '9' vs a '10'.
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  #70  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:56 AM
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Agreed!! Even more so in the fact, that if you were to cover up the flips, I doubt very seriously you can spot out a '9' vs a '10'.
And this is where the grading industry starts to stink. We're talking minuscule details that lead to a card being a 10 instead of a 9, and vice versa. You can't tell me those minuscule details warrant the $$$ asked of the customer, even if the card being a 10 jumps the value of it astronomically.

I will say this, though. If they are combining turn-around time with value, it ultimately makes sense to charge more. As previously stated by others in this thread, there is more risk in handling a more expensive card. However, I think the ball is dropped from a customer service/integrity stand point when A) the customer is asked to pay up front, and B) when a card has a 2-3 grade increase, the customer is asked to pay more. Regarding "A", what person in their right mind would pay someone up front for a service? I wouldn't even recommend that if you're working with a family member, let alone a stranger. In regards to "B", I think a system should be developed to have the customer provide their grade assumption of each card. If the card comes back with a 1-2 grade difference, they should not be asked to pay more. But if there's an obnoxious attempt to screw over the company, yeah, pay more. Forgive me if such a system is already in place, as I have never submitted a card for grading, just my thoughts.
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  #71  
Old 02-24-2017, 12:43 PM
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Leon,

I knew you weren't defending the practice, which is why I apologized up front in case you thought i was responding specifically to what you said. You are also correct in that what the TPGs are doing is not illegal. As with being a CPA, if I do a job and charge a contingent fee to someone, I could potentially be brought up before the Accountancy Board of whatever state I am in and lose my license to practice for doing that. I could also be sued if something goes wrong or bad in a deal that then relied upon my opinion.

CPAs self-regulate and have to undergo peer review every so often to keep and maintain our licenses to practice, as we supposedly adhere to one, common set of rules that all practicing CPAs are supposed to follow. This is where the TPGs really differ, they can all make up their own rules and grading criteria however they want, because no one else forces them to follow anything else. Wouldn't it be interesting if TPGs had a similar peer review requirement and every so often one TPG would have some of their people go over to another TPG and review their work to see if they did it properly and followed the rules. That is where accountability and transparency starts to come in to a practice like this.

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  #72  
Old 02-24-2017, 12:54 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Leon,

I knew you weren't defending the practice, which is why I apologized up front in case you thought i was responding specifically to what you said. You are also correct in that what the TPGs are doing is not illegal. As with being a CPA, if I do a job and charge a contingent fee to someone, I could potentially be brought up before the Accountancy Board of whatever state I am in and lose my license to practice for doing that. I could also be sued if something goes wrong or bad in a deal that then relied upon my opinion.

CPAs self-regulate and have to undergo peer review every so often to keep and maintain our licenses to practice, as we supposedly adhere to one, common set of rules that all practicing CPAs are supposed to follow. This is where the TPGs really differ, they can all make up their own rules and grading criteria however they want, because no one else forces them to follow anything else. Wouldn't it be interesting if TPGs had a similar peer review requirement and every so often one TPG would have some of their people go over to another TPG and review their work to see if they did it properly and followed the rules. That is where accountability and transparency starts to come in to a practice like this.

BobC

Can have a company that reviews the reviews as well...and do a IGR 'independent grade review'

as far as regulations and having universal procedures in place, its all all about regulation...and freedom from regulation. People differ on that issue in many areas besides baseball cards
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  #73  
Old 02-24-2017, 03:31 PM
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They realize they are handing you money and want a piece of the action. It seems pretty fair to me.
Ha. Wow. That would be like putting an addition onto your house and your contractor wanting a cut of the value the addition just added.
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  #74  
Old 02-24-2017, 04:02 PM
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Just never get cheated...

I bought this in a 2 holder, cracked and resubbed:

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  #75  
Old 02-24-2017, 04:15 PM
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Ha. Wow. That would be like putting an addition onto your house and your contractor wanting a cut of the value the addition just added.
That's a much better example than the one I used to try to get the point across!

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Just never get cheated...

I bought this in a 2 holder, cracked and resubbed:

WOW!

I am curious what would/would have happened if you left that card slabbed?

Would have another TPG or Joe himself, asked the previous TPG what he was thinking or would the card remain a 2 as to not admit they screwed up?
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  #76  
Old 02-24-2017, 05:25 PM
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Ha. Wow. That would be like putting an addition onto your house and your contractor wanting a cut of the value the addition just added.
To be fully honest as a contractor for 20 years. We didn't want a cut of your addition. We did charge you more for the SAME EXACT addition if you have a 800K house compare to a 300K house.
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  #77  
Old 02-24-2017, 06:13 PM
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To be fully honest as a contractor for 20 years. We didn't want a cut of your addition. We did charge you more for the SAME EXACT addition if you have a 800K house compare to a 300K house.
Is that a typo where you meant to say "We didn't" or did you purposely charge more because you knew the people with the $800,000 dollar house likely had more money?
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Old 02-24-2017, 06:31 PM
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Is that a typo where you meant to say "We didn't" or did you purposely charge more because you knew the people with the $800,000 dollar house likely had more money?
I 100% guarantee the nicer/more expensive your house is the more you will pay a contractor for the same exact work. No none of them are going to admit to it but that is how it really works.
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Old 02-24-2017, 06:39 PM
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I 100% guarantee the nicer/more expensive your house is the more you will pay a contractor for the same exact work. No none of them are going to admit to it but that is how it really works.
I'm sure it goes on, but what would happen if the owners of the bigger house knew the owners of the smaller house and knew what they paid?

I am sure that happens too, and may explain why so many of these contractors eventually go out of business?
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Old 02-24-2017, 06:45 PM
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I'm sure it goes on, but what would happen if the owners of the bigger house knew the owners of the smaller house and knew what they paid?

I am sure that happens too, and may explain why so many of these contractors eventually go out of business?
Actually that is funny, most contractors go out of business because they suck at one of the many aspects of running a business.

There are many good reasons the owner of the more expensive house is paying more for the same exact thing.

If interested Dale I can explain it to you in a PM because I can guarantee people with $ will not understand and will be offended.
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Old 02-24-2017, 06:51 PM
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Actually that is funny, most contractors go out of business because they suck at one of the many aspects of running a business.

There are many good reasons the owner of the more expensive house is paying more for the same exact thing.

If interested Dale I can explain it to you in a PM because I can guarantee people with $ will not understand and will be offended.
I think I may have an idea of what you are going to say, but I'd like to hear if I am close or right on a couple things. PM away.
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Old 02-24-2017, 07:32 PM
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Can have a company that reviews the reviews as well...and do a IGR 'independent grade review'

as far as regulations and having universal procedures in place, its all all about regulation...and freedom from regulation. People differ on that issue in many areas besides baseball cards
You wouldn't really need another independent group to check on the TPG companies. As long as they all followed the same, consistent set of standards and rules as far as grading cards goes, they could just check on each other every so often to make sure they're all doing it the same, correct way. If they found one of their peer TPG companies wasn't abiding by the rules and following the proper, consistent and recognized grading standards, they could let whoever/whatever group that had licensing control/authority over TPG companies know and possibly have them stop that TPG company from being able continue grading cards until they corrected whatever the issues were that were found.

As for the comment about regulations though, and the freedom from them, I'm against more regulations as much as anyone else. However, in this case the "regulations" aren't there for the benefit or detriment of the TPG companies, they would be in place to protect you and I as collectors to try to insure that these TPG companies are doing a fair and honest job of evaluating, authenticating and grading cards, that they are applying consistent, recognized standards in so doing and, that they are independent and unbiased in their work. At least as far as I am concerned, they should be.

The TPG companies don't have anyone really watching them. They can do what they want. That is why we still occasionally see some of these off-the-wall graded cards from some supposed TPG company that no one has ever heard of showing up for sale every now and then. You or I could start our own grading company tomorrow if we wanted to, and it is perfectly fine and legal. Now, you're likely not going to get many people trusting you and your grading, at least amongst the type of collectors that frequent this site but, if you're selling at a flea market or on Ebay and some unsuspecting collecting newbie that doesn't know any better takes a chance, you've done nothing legally wrong. And there is the gist of the problem, anybody can really do or say whatever they want, without much consequence.

Think about it.....all these people working at these TPG companies doing the grading, exactly how and where did they learn to do it, and what makes them any more qualified than you or I?

Are there any institutions or schools that teach about such grading and authentication out there, or have specified curriculum or degrees available for someone who wants to learn more or get into this type of field? No, right? So what qualifies any of the existing TPG companies to be able to decide on their own who can and can't do this work, and how they should be trained and what rules and standards they follow?

And unless there is only one person doing all the grading at each of the TPG companies out there, how do they get their graders to be consistent and uniform in their evaluation and grading process? They must have some internal set of rules/conditions/standards they provide and require their graders to follow and adhere to then, right? And if that is the case, I would think you should be able to ask any of the TPG companies for a definitive, list or schedule of the standards and criteria they require their graders to follow and adhere to so as to determine specifically what makes a card get a grade of 1, or a 4, or a 6.5 or a 40 or an 88, etc. Every single card they grade should be put through a similar, consistent process. There should probably a specified checklist for each and every card to make sure a grader looked at all the applicable things they need to look at and evaluate the card for. And just like each graded card has its own cert #, each graded card should also have its own documentation as to how the evaluation and grade was arrived at, and should be retained by the TPG company so as to document what they did and how they arrived at the opinion that they did on a particular card. I honestly don't know anything about the inner workings of TPG companies. Do they already do these kinds of things I'm suggesting they should do? And if not, why not?

BobC
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Old 02-24-2017, 07:48 PM
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You wouldn't really need another independent group to check on the TPG companies. As long as they all followed the same, consistent set of standards and rules as far as grading cards goes, they could just check on each other every so often to make sure they're all doing it the same, correct way. If they found one of their peer TPG companies wasn't abiding by the rules and following the proper, consistent and recognized grading standards, they could let whoever/whatever group that had licensing control/authority over TPG companies know and possibly have them stop that TPG company from being able continue grading cards until they corrected whatever the issues were that were found.

each graded card should also have its own documentation as to how the evaluation and grade was arrived at, and should be retained by the TPG company so as to document what they did and how they arrived at the opinion that they did on a particular card. I honestly don't know anything about the inner workings of TPG companies. Do they already do these kinds of things I'm suggesting they should do? And if not, why not?

BobC
LOL. That would go over well!
I can picture a steady stream of TPG's arriving at each others places of business daily all crying afoul about what each company isn't doing that they should be! It would be a gong show, guaranteed!!

I like your second suggestion as I have always thought it would be nice to find out why your card got the grade it did.
I believe Beckett has quit doing this, but they use to have scores/grades on their flips that would state something like 8 for centering, 9 for corners, 7 for surface wear etc, then the final average grade in the top right. I believe most on here like this but for some reason Beckett was the only one who did this for some reason?
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Old 02-24-2017, 08:27 PM
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LOL. That would go over well!
I can picture a steady stream of TPG's arriving at each others places of business daily all crying afoul about what each company isn't doing that they should be! It would be a gong show, guaranteed!!

I like your second suggestion as I have always thought it would be nice to find out why your card got the grade it did.
I believe Beckett has quit doing this, but they use to have scores/grades on their flips that would state something like 8 for centering, 9 for corners, 7 for surface wear etc, then the final average grade in the top right. I believe most on here like this but for some reason Beckett was the only one who did this for some reason?
Beckett has sub-grades on their modern cards and has specific rules for the overall grade in relation to the individual sub-grades.

The fact that PSA and SGC do not do so on any of their products leads me to believe they have something to hide. Giving a card a specific grade without explaining why exactly it got that makes no sense. It's a "Where's Waldo" on the flaw(s) of each card vs. BGS you know exactly what's wrong with the card, if anything.

I have harped on them constantly of revising and publishing a separate set of grading standards for vintage cards AND putting sub-grades back onto their vintage cards. It boggles my mind why you wouldn't do this and I believe in a short amount of time that could boost their vintage submissions AND give them better credibility in the vintage market.
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Old 02-24-2017, 09:08 PM
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LOL. That would go over well!
I can picture a steady stream of TPG's arriving at each others places of business daily all crying afoul about what each company isn't doing that they should be! It would be a gong show, guaranteed!!

I like your second suggestion as I have always thought it would be nice to find out why your card got the grade it did.
I believe Beckett has quit doing this, but they use to have scores/grades on their flips that would state something like 8 for centering, 9 for corners, 7 for surface wear etc, then the final average grade in the top right. I believe most on here like this but for some reason Beckett was the only one who did this for some reason?
Irv,

That would be funny but, it wouldn't be a steady stream like that. For example, CPAs, like most of the professions, are licensed and under a state by state authority. To maintain my license in Ohio, where I live, every three years I have to file for a renewal and also report that I have fulfilled the minimum requirement of completing at least 120 hours of continuing professional education, including at least 3 hours on professional ethics, during that three year period since my previous license renewal.

To even become a CPA in Ohio, you now have to have a minimum of 150 hours of secondary (college) education in an applicable major involving accounting. You must then sit through and pass a multi-part, standardized test put together under the auspices of the AICPA (American Institute of Certified Public Accountants), the national group that oversees and promulgates the standardized rules and practices that CPAs go by. This CPA exam is now done via computer and involves a minimum of four different sessions, and trust me, these aren't half-hour or 45 minute tests. Back in the day when I originally took the CPA exam, before all the computers, the standardized test was only offered twice each year, the first Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of every May and November. In Ohio, at that time, everyone in the state traveled down to Columbus, Ohio and went to one of the massive exhibit buildings on the Ohio State Fairgrounds. It was in one huge room with nothing when you walked in but a sea of tables, each with two chairs all facing forward, and a block of wood in the middle of the table with a piece of cardboard stuck in it to supposedly keep the other person sitting at your table from looking over at your paper and answers, and vice versa.

Back then, the exact same test was given to every single person taking the CPA exam in the U.S., at the exact same date and time. There was an afternoon session on Wednesday, followed by separate morning and afternoon sessions on Thursday and Friday. And these sessions were each like 3+ hours. There were about 2,000 people taking the test in Columbus at the same time I was. There were proctors all over the place watching you, and you weren't allowed to leave the main room (other than a bathroom break where you were also watched) until the people taking the test on the West coast were similarly locked in their test center and had begun the exam. That way, because of the different time zones, they didn't have someone go into the test in say Ohio, check out the questions and then just leave early to then run to a phone to call someone out in California and tell them what was on the test so they had time to look up answers real quick before they started the exam out there. The five different sessions covered four separate sections of testing, and you had to pass all four parts to complete the exam. You used no. 2 pencils and paper, no calculators, no computers, no cell phones, no nothing. If you didn't pass all four parts the first time you sat for the exam, you had to wait six months for the next round of tests to be given to try and then pass the parts you had missed. Oh, and the average pass rate for all four parts for someone taking the CPA exam for the very first time was something like 5% or less, at best. Then assuming you finally got lucky and had passed all four parts, you still weren't a CPA in Ohio till you had completed a minimum of two years of accounting related work experience, then completed and filed your application with the Accountancy Board of Ohio, and included along with that at least two (I think it was two) references from already registered CPAs in the state vouching for you and your application. Only then did you get a CPA license.

And that is just for each individual CPA. Each CPA or CPA firm that then forms a practice must also register that practice with the Accountancy Board of Ohio. And if in that practice the CPA or the CPA firm then performs any attest functions and issues opinions on any financials or other such information, they are also required every three years to have what is known as a peer review performed whereby a licensed, registered peer reviewer, who is also a CPA, comes in to review the CPA firm's practices, interview their people, look at their controls and requirements in place for performing the work they do for the public, and also selecting on a test basis, a sample of every type of attest function they performed in the current preceding year. Those selected engagements are then reviewed by the peer reviewer and/or peer review team and they look to see that the engagements are performed in conformity with firm's and the AICPA's rules and practices, and most importantly in accordance with GAAP ( Generally Accepted Accounting Principles). If the peer reviewers find errors and deficiencies in the work done, there can be various levels of actions prescribed and taken, depending on the quantity and severity of errors found. The worst case scenario is that a CPA or CPA firm can have their practice license revoked, and no longer be able to offer their opinions on financial statements. And to add insult to injury, the CPA or CPA firm being peer reviewed also has to pay the peer reviewer for coming in and subjecting them to the testing, at their normal, standard rates.

And people may wonder why I think like I do and question why a TPG company giving an opinion on graded cards should be doing a whole lot more than they do now to ensure they are fairly, properly and consistently doing their job in providing card evaluation and grading services, and also do so by utilizing a universally standardized, consistent and agreed upon set of grading measurements and criteria.

BobC

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Old 02-24-2017, 09:39 PM
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Beckett has sub-grades on their modern cards and has specific rules for the overall grade in relation to the individual sub-grades.

It boggles my mind why you wouldn't do this and I believe in a short amount of time that could boost their vintage submissions AND give them better credibility in the vintage market.
I didn't realize they were still doing it with modern. I thought it fell to the way side?

I agree with the second bold. I think most people want to know, like me, why their card received the grade it did.

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Irv,

That would be funny but, it wouldn't be a steady stream like that.
BobC
I guess I misunderstood you in your first post, Bob? I thought you were referring that the 3 current TPG's self manage/oversee each others business's, not that a 4th, unbiased person(s) do that.

There is quite a bit to what you do and have to do, but personally, I don't ever see that happening in this hobby. It would be nice, at least to some extent, but I don't imagine any of that comes cheap, nor would it be readily accepted by the TPG's, nor the big players in this hobby who would have a say.
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:24 PM
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I didn't realize they were still doing it with modern. I thought it fell to the way side?

I agree with the second bold. I think most people want to know, like me, why their card received the grade it did.
They have introduced a overall single grade only service for their modern cards for a reduced price vs. having the sub-grades put on it.

Kind of pointless to me, but whatever.

I'm glad someone else sees things the way I do in regards to this.
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  #88  
Old 02-25-2017, 08:40 AM
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Both PSA and SGC have a guarantee on their grades however neither company buys back as many cards as they should however SGC is probably better at honoring their guarantee. I know they cannot possibly be worse than PSA in this regard. Anyway, if the graders are doing their job then there should be no reason to have to offer a guarantee on their opinions.
1st question - If these companies guarantee their grades, what happens if I send in a card and it grades a 2, and later on I sell the card and someone else sends it in and it grades a 7, shouldn't I be compensated for the difference in value because it was graded too low to begin with? I am pretty much just joking, but it is an interesting concept.

2nd question - PSA's Collectors Club requires an annual fee. Is SGC's Gold Club fee an annual fee or just a one time fee? I can't find the info on their website.

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Old 02-25-2017, 08:53 AM
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2nd question - Is SGC's Gold Club fee an annual fee or just a one time fee? I can't find the info on their website.

Rick
It is a yearly subscription.
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Old 02-25-2017, 09:49 AM
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I guess I misunderstood you in your first post, Bob? I thought you were referring that the 3 current TPG's self manage/oversee each others business's, not that a 4th, unbiased person(s) do that.

There is quite a bit to what you do and have to do, but personally, I don't ever see that happening in this hobby. It would be nice, at least to some extent, but I don't imagine any of that comes cheap, nor would it be readily accepted by the TPG's, nor the big players in this hobby who would have a say.
Irv,

The CPA profession more or less self-regulates. Some CPAs take additional training and so on and become peer reviewers, along with everything else they normally do. A CPA firm can then engage any qualified, registered peer reviewer to come in and go over their work and practices and report the results to state accountancy boards for them every third year, as required by the profession. Oh, and the firm that hired the peer reviewer also has to pay them at their standard hourly rates for the work they do. Talk about adding insult to injury, huh?

I actually happen to be a registered CPA peer reviewer myself, which is probably another reason I may be a little more sensitive to the idea of peer review and adherence to standards and independence by someone giving their opinion on something, like TPG companies do. However, for the record, I am only qualified and registered to perform peer reviews on a particular type of specialized audit on Service Organization Controls (fka SAS-70 audits for anyone who may have a clue what I'm talking about.) When some CPA firm that performs one of these kinds of special audits hires a peer reviewer to come in and check them over, unless he/she has this specialized expertise, he/she ends up calling someone like me to join his peer review team and look over just that particular type of audit.

To put it into perspective, assuming TPG companies also had peer reviews performed, let's say you worked for PSA and were hired and asked to go in and perform a peer review on SGC. Well, SGC will review and grade S-74 silks, whereas PSA does not. So working at PSA you probably wouldn't know much about how the silks are graded and evaluated, so how could you be expected to review someone else grading them then? Answer, you'd call someone who is knowledgeable about S-74 silks and their grading and have them join your peer review team just to look at and report solely on the silk grading process of SGC. Makes sense, huh?

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Old 02-25-2017, 07:53 PM
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Irv,

The CPA profession more or less self-regulates. Some CPAs take additional training and so on and become peer reviewers, along with everything else they normally do. A CPA firm can then engage any qualified, registered peer reviewer to come in and go over their work and practices and report the results to state accountancy boards for them every third year, as required by the profession. Oh, and the firm that hired the peer reviewer also has to pay them at their standard hourly rates for the work they do. Talk about adding insult to injury, huh?

I actually happen to be a registered CPA peer reviewer myself, which is probably another reason I may be a little more sensitive to the idea of peer review and adherence to standards and independence by someone giving their opinion on something, like TPG companies do. However, for the record, I am only qualified and registered to perform peer reviews on a particular type of specialized audit on Service Organization Controls (fka SAS-70 audits for anyone who may have a clue what I'm talking about.) When some CPA firm that performs one of these kinds of special audits hires a peer reviewer to come in and check them over, unless he/she has this specialized expertise, he/she ends up calling someone like me to join his peer review team and look over just that particular type of audit.

To put it into perspective, assuming TPG companies also had peer reviews performed, let's say you worked for PSA and were hired and asked to go in and perform a peer review on SGC. Well, SGC will review and grade S-74 silks, whereas PSA does not. So working at PSA you probably wouldn't know much about how the silks are graded and evaluated, so how could you be expected to review someone else grading them then? Answer, you'd call someone who is knowledgeable about S-74 silks and their grading and have them join your peer review team just to look at and report solely on the silk grading process of SGC. Makes sense, huh?

BobC
Bob- No offense, but at the risk of having to read an essay, what is your opinion? (abbreviated form)

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Old 02-26-2017, 12:55 PM
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This is a primary example of why SGC raising the grading prices makes no sense. In August a PSA graded 5 sold for 143K by Heritage. Last night the SGC 60, which I think was slightly nicer, failed to make the reserve at 90K (108K out the door). If the PSA 5 was a real sale, this one certainly had no reason to under perform. Unfortunately this is not an isolated example.
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Old 02-26-2017, 01:05 PM
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This is a primary example of why SGC raising the grading prices makes no sense. In August a PSA graded 5 sold for 143K by Heritage. Last night the SGC 60, which I think was slightly nicer, failed to make the reserve at 90K (108K out the door). If the PSA 5 was a real sale, this one certainly had no reason to under perform. Unfortunately this is not an isolated example.
I was unaware of the history but I personally thought the $90,000 Reserve, boldly displayed, might of had something to do with that?

Not that it's a given, but I have noticed that before. Cards with reserves or BINS sometimes get zero hits/bids, but once the reserve or BIN is removed, the cards sell for close or even over the bins and reserve.
Just a few of my observations anyways.
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Old 02-26-2017, 03:52 PM
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I was unaware of the history but I personally thought the $90,000 Reserve, boldly displayed, might of had something to do with that?

Not that it's a given, but I have noticed that before. Cards with reserves or BINS sometimes get zero hits/bids, but once the reserve or BIN is removed, the cards sell for close or even over the bins and reserve.
Just a few of my observations anyways.
The PSA 5 had a reserve as well when it sold in Aug. Not uncommon for Heritage to use reserves. Reserves in their auctions are not displayed until a couple days before the closing night of the auction.
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Old 02-26-2017, 04:00 PM
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The PSA 5 had a reserve as well when it sold in Aug. Not uncommon for Heritage to use reserves. Reserves in their auctions are not displayed until a couple days before the closing night of the auction.
I could be wrong, but when I was looking last night, I thought I noticed "0" bids?

Maybe, if there were any, they were removed once the reserve was posted up?
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Old 02-26-2017, 05:32 PM
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Bob- No offense, but at the risk of having to read an essay, what is your opinion? (abbreviated form)
Sorry, tough day at work. The TPG companies should be more consistent and transparent, and all I really need to know is if it is fake or authentic, I can figure out the shape and condition of the card myself. And grading standards should be just that, standards, recognized and followed by everybody, that are set by the collecting community and what they want, not what the TPG companies set and want us to follow.

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Old 02-26-2017, 05:47 PM
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I will be sending them around 25-30 cards in the next day or two to get in on the older pricing. I had the rest of my collection graded by SGC when I sold it and had started using them from day one, for many reasons. Now they advertise here too so it's a double reason....but they are my grader of choice because of their consistency and the way their holders look. And since I have almost exclusively collected pre-war it has worked out nicely on the valuations too. I don't play in the stratosphere of the rich and famous and my cards have done nicely in their holders, overall.
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Old 02-26-2017, 08:41 PM
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Posting more out of frustration as a holder of MANY SGC graded cards but here is another example of the disparity in value grade for grade between PSA and SGC when there is no justification for it based on the card's condition. Pretty clear that Dave Forman took SGC the wrong way as the difference in prices on like kind cards have never been greater.

SGC ending tonight in Heritage (not my card) and is sitting at 50K out the door.
PSA example is in Mile High and sitting at 102K out the door with 11 plus days to go. No insult intended to the consignor or bidders but the 7 is not as nice as the 84.

Maybe focusing on increasing the value of the brand name would make more sense than increasing the cost of grading.
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Old 02-26-2017, 11:40 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Originally Posted by botn View Post
Posting more out of frustration as a holder of MANY SGC graded cards but here is another example of the disparity in value grade for grade between PSA and SGC when there is no justification for it based on the card's condition. Pretty clear that Dave Forman took SGC the wrong way as the difference in prices on like kind cards have never been greater.

SGC ending tonight in Heritage (not my card) and is sitting at 50K out the door.
PSA example is in Mile High and sitting at 102K out the door with 11 plus days to go. No insult intended to the consignor or bidders but the 7 is not as nice as the 84.

Maybe focusing on increasing the value of the brand name would make more sense than increasing the cost of grading.
I think everyone pretty much values SGC 8s close to a PSA 7.5 on equal type cards. The issue would be if you knew you could submit a card to SGC and get an 8 versus a psa 7 then submitting the card would make sense to SGC in the resell market

i
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Old 02-27-2017, 05:50 AM
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Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
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Originally Posted by botn View Post
Posting more out of frustration as a holder of MANY SGC graded cards but here is another example of the disparity in value grade for grade between PSA and SGC when there is no justification for it based on the card's condition. Pretty clear that Dave Forman took SGC the wrong way as the difference in prices on like kind cards have never been greater.

SGC ending tonight in Heritage (not my card) and is sitting at 50K out the door.
PSA example is in Mile High and sitting at 102K out the door with 11 plus days to go. No insult intended to the consignor or bidders but the 7 is not as nice as the 84.

Maybe focusing on increasing the value of the brand name would make more sense than increasing the cost of grading.


The writing has been on the wall for years that the price differential was just going to keep widening. Obviously there is a ton of hate on this board for PSA but lets face it they have done a tremendous job of building their brand. They constantly come out with new features and upgrades to their process. The online submission form is a tremendous improvement. The new holder is the toughest holder to crack of any of the big three. You constantly see them cited when sports memorabilia is mentioned. The holding company has done extremely well and they are in a great financial position. They don't snub their nose at non sports cards as inferior and instead embrace them and capture new markets. When I started looking into getting cards graded myself in 2010 I did a lot of research and it was clear then and obviously even more clear now that PSA was dominating. They are the leader and it isn't even debatable. Almost all of the highest priced cards have sold in PSA holders. This alone is something that is virtually impossible to compete with. The fact that they aren't standing still a top of the mountain and instead are working hard to keep climbing makes it impossible for another grader to catch them. SGC has somewhere between 1.5% to 3% of the market share for new cards being graded. If you remove personal preference and just look at the data no one would be surprised by what has happened. Instead because of position bias some are left scratching their heads. This trend is not over and if anything will continue. I went to the National in 2013 and the line was very long to get in to see PSA. There were two guys sitting twiddling their thumbs at the SGC booth where you could literally approach them. Do you think when you walk into the Apple store and you have to wait to get service this turns away customers? Of course not it makes them want the product more. The same is true here. Over the years I have read about many of the top collections in cards and you guessed it they are in PSA holders. There is heard mentality in life and just reading the message boards online you can see it with your own two eyes. The number of cards trying to be crossed over to PSA is off the charts. As I have said so many times, as the spread widened in price it would naturally attract more business and continue to diminish the other brands. The influx of money that has come into cards in the past five years are business people. If they spoke to anyone about the third party authentication market the conservation would be brief as the choice would be so clear. It is was it is.
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