POLL: IN or OUT: YES or NO

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes and yes. It's absurd that these guys -- easily in the top 5 of all time pitchers and batters, respectively -- are out and a ton of far far lesser lights are in.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes and yes. It's absurd that these guys -- easily in the top 5 of all time pitchers and batters, respectively -- are out and a ton of far far lesser lights are in.

+1

Too many marginal players in, and Bonds and Clemens were among the greatest players ever. They've already been punished by having to wait at least ten years. Lifetime ban is too harsh.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

+1

Too many marginal players in, and Bonds and Clemens were among the greatest players ever. They've already been punished by having to wait at least ten years. Lifetime ban is too harsh.

Joe Jackson has been waiting 82 years. They haven't waited long enough in my opinion.

[HRBAKER]

2 No's for me

They chose their fate

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by rats60

Joe Jackson has been waiting 82 years. They haven't waited long enough in my opinion.

Joe Jackson's transgression was much worse. He participated in a plot to throw the World Series to gamblers. No comparison...although I would probably vote for Joe to get in.

[bnorth]

Bonds-yes
Clemens-YES

Neither cheater more than whoever your favorite player is.

[HRBAKER]

That's the easiest way to excuse lying and cheating, assume or assert that everyone did it.

[Leon]

no

no

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

That's the easiest way to excuse lying and cheating, assume or assert that everyone did it.

Well, aren't you assuming that Clemens did it? As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), he never failed a test.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Joe Jackson's transgression was much worse. He participated in a plot to throw the World Series to gamblers. No comparison...although I would probably vote for Joe to get in.

Strongly disagree. .375/.394/.563/.956 5 runs 1 HR 6 RBIs 0 errors in 8 games. If that is "throwing" the World Series, then Bonds "threw" 3 NLCS with his .191 BA and 3 RBIs in 20 games.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by rats60

Strongly disagree. .375/.394/.563/.956 5 runs 1 HR 6 RBIs 0 errors in 8 games. If that is "throwing" the World Series, then Bonds "threw" 3 NLCS with his .191 BA and 3 RBIs in 20 games.

I know Jackson had the great stats which leads one to believe he changed his mind along the way. But he did take money from the gamblers, didn't he? The first installment was split among the eight players.

Look, I don't condone cheating and personally hate it. But I also hate the incredibly mediocre players that are getting into the Hall in the place of the tainted superstars. Trammell and Morris were fine players but debatable for entry. I guess it's just my general disdain for the HOF.

[botn]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I know Jackson had the great stats which leads one to believe he changed his mind along the way. But he did take money from the gamblers, didn't he? The first installment was split among the eight players.

Look, I don't condone cheating and personally hate it. But I also hate the incredibly mediocre players that are getting into the Hall in the place of the tainted superstars. Trammell and Morris were fine players but debatable for entry. I guess it's just my general disdain for the HOF.

Hi Barry,

Then Jackson should be punished for stealing money but let's assume he did participate in throwing the series, despite his stats saying otherwise, we are comparing a player's indiscretion over 8 games compared to those who cheated over several hundred games.

Maybe it is time for us to accept that there are really very few superstars in the game who are not cheating but that should not mean we look the other way for the guys who did cheat to become superstars. Bonds was HOF material before he used. I don't think we should be acknowledging his (or anyone else's) accomplishments knowing he broke the rules to achieve them.

Greg

[Jim65]

No on both.

[bbcard1]

Holding nose, yes.

Their stats are beyond question and they represented an era of baseball that was a part of the story.

[Snapolit1]

Yes and yes.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes and yes. It's absurd that these guys -- easily in the top 5 of all time pitchers and batters, respectively -- are out and a ton of far far lesser lights are in.

The problem is how much of their light stems from the juiced bodies they gave themselves. Everyone looks to try to gain an edge; that's human nature and natural competitiveness. These two, and several other late bloomer boomers did so by illegal performance-enhancing drugs. They cheated. They cheated the integrity of the game. They do not belong in the BBHOF---ever.

Sure, there are lesser lights in the BBHOF. That fact has nothing to do with Barry Bonds or Roger Clemons. Pete Rose outshines all those lesser lights. For how little of Pete's HOF career did he actually bet on MLB? Whatever little space of time it was, it was enough for the powers that be to throw him out of the game forever. The Black Sox were involved in throwing a best of nine World Series. Just one lousy World Series.

Just---and it cost them their careers---the rest of their lives. I think that was much, much, much harsher. Barry and Roger made among the biggest boo coo during their careers. They got to keep all that. They got to play MLB as long as they wanted, pretty much.

And you've got the nerve to cry the blues, and carry their torch, and demand their enshrinement. A final thought. Not often mentioned about Barry and Roger, and all "the others", were the many, many, many young guys who thought long and hard about whether they should start taking performance-enhancing drugs to increase their own power, and increase their own chances of making it into the major leagues. For a few of those wannabes, the drugs did more for them than they'd bargained for, and they died young.

'Nuf said. ----Brian Powell

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brian how do you feel about Gaylord Perry?

Or Whitey Ford who was notorious for scuffing baseballs?

Suppose Aaron and Mays and Schmidt took greenies after taking them without a script became a federal crime? Your thoughts on that?

Another issue I have with the steroid /HGH disqualification is that it is inevitable guys who used are going to be voted in because they were more discreet, or perhaps better liked so trainers and such didn't rat them out. I would bet anything it's happened several times already if not more.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brian how do you feel about Gaylord Perry?

Or Whitey Ford who was notorious for scuffing baseballs?

Suppose Aaron and Mays and Schmidt took greenies after taking them without a script became a federal crime? Your thoughts on that?

Another issue I have with the steroid /HGH disqualification is that it is inevitable guys who used are going to be voted in because they were more discreet, or perhaps better liked so trainers and such didn't rat them out. I would bet anything it's happened several times already if not more.

The highest paid players, or rather the players who are willing to spend the most on them, have the best masking agents.

Even then, 16.5 inch forearms or a size 9 head are blatantly obvious.

[quinnsryche]

Hell no on both. And never ever too.

[Jacklitsch]

In

In

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brian how do you feel about Gaylord Perry?

Or Whitey Ford who was notorious for scuffing baseballs?

Suppose Aaron and Mays and Schmidt took greenies after taking them without a script became a federal crime? Your thoughts on that?

Another issue I have with the steroid /HGH disqualification is that it is inevitable guys who used are going to be voted in because they were more discreet, or perhaps better liked so trainers and such didn't rat them out. I would bet anything it's happened several times already if not more.

PETER, SORRY FOR THE DELAYED REPLY. I WANTED TIME TO THINK.

A BIG PART OF BASEBALL IS SHEER ENTERTAINMENT, AND I SUPPOSE FOR THAT REASON, GAYLORD PERRY AND HIS WET ANTICS NEVER BOTHERED ME. THE FANS JUST SEEMED TO HAVE A BIG KICK OUT OF PERRY MAKING MOST OF THE BATTERS LOOK BAD.

TO ME AT LEAST, IT WAS LIKE "4 AGAINST ONE IN DODGEBALL"; GAYLORD HAD FOUR UMPIRES WITH THE UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL CHANCE TO NAIL 'EM, AND THEY NEVER DID. THE MAN HAD A WHOLE LOT MORE IN HIS REPERTOIRE GOING FOR HIM, THAN JUST THE GOOBER BALL. AT SOME POINT, THE PSYCHOLOGICAL TORMENT OF THE THOUGHT OF GAYLORD USING HIS TRICK PITCH MUST HAVE HAD AN EFFECT UPON THE BATTERS.

FURTHERMORE, THE WAY HE SEEMED TO COME BACK FROM THE DEAD SEVERAL TIMES OVER THE COURSE OF HIS CAREER. HE WAS GETTING ALONG SO-SO WITH THE GIANTS FOR SEVERAL YEARS UNTIL BREAKING OUT BIG IN 1966. AFTER SEVERAL GOOD YEARS, DOWN HE WENT. THEN, GOING TO CLEVELAND, HE WAS ON TOP AGAIN, HAVING A WHALE OF A '74 UNTIL SOMETHING SET HIM BACK LATE IN THE SEASON. AFTER A DOWNWARD TREND, HE WINDS UP IN SAN DIEGO, AND THEN BLOSSOMS YET AGAIN. PERRY WAS AMAZING.

WHITEY FORD AND ELSTON HOWARD WERE CRAFTY; NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. I GUESS IT WAS CHEATING, TO AN EXTENT. BUT THEN I FOUND THIS BIT ON PRE-WAR GREAT, ROGERS HORNSBY. HE WROTE AN ARTICLE ENTITLED, "YOU'VE GOT TO CHEAT TO WIN". AMONG THE WORDS ROGERS WROTE WERE THESE,

"WHEN I PLAYED SECOND BASE, I USED TO TRIP, KICK, ELBOW, OR SPIKE ANYONE I COULD."

HAROLD FRIEND, WHO WROTE THE PIECE ON GAYLORD PERRY AS A CHEATER, AND FOUND THE ARTICLE BY HORNSBY, AND QUOTED THE ABOVE, MADE THE FOLLOWING COMMENT AFTER ROGERS' ADMISSION: "HE IS NOT ALONE."

GOING BACK TO THE OP, TO WRAP THIS UP. I USED THIS PRIME EXAMPLE IN MY BOOK, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN, ON THE STEROID USERS. I BELIEVE WHAT REALLY GOT ATHLETES THINKING ABOUT DOING THEM WORLDWIDE WAS "BIG BEN" JOHNSON, THE CANADIAN SPRINTER, IN THE 1988 OLYMPICS. I SAW THEM ON TV. BEN JOHNSON WAS A STREAMLINED HERCULES. I HAD NEVER SEEN SUCH A MUSCULAR SPRINTER. HE PUT OUR CARL LEWIS AWAY WITH EASE IN THE 100 METERS FINAL, SETTING A WORLD RECORD. HOWEVER, WHEN TEST TIME CAME AFTERWARDS, HE TESTED VERY POSITIVE. HIS GOLD MEDAL WAS STRIPPED, AND HE WAS SENT BACK TO CANADA IN DISGRACE.

TO TRY TO BE SUCCINCT, BASEBALL BECOMES A GAME OF GAUDY NUMBERS. BIG MAC, BARRY BONDS, AND I AM RATHER CERTAIN SAMMY SOSA (AND OTHERS) TAINTED, TARNISHED, AND BLEW AWAY THE HALLOWED NUMBERS OF BASEBALL'S GREATS. THEY DID SO WITH STEROIDS, PERIOD. THIS KIND OF CHEATING IS A CONSTANT SUPER VA-VOOM TO WHAT ABILITY THOSE DUDES ALREADY HAD. YOU CANNOT COMPARE WHAT THOSE DIRTY CHEATING RATS DID TO PERRY'S SOMETIME SLOBBER BALL, OR ELLIE'S SCUFFING UP A BALL SO FORD WOULD MAKE IT DO A DIPSIE-DOODLE TO THE BATTER. AGAIN, IF THE UMPIRES SAW ELLIE OR WHITEY OBVIOUSLY DO IT, THEY WOULD HAVE GIVEN THEM A WET ONE---TO THE SHOWERS!

WHEREAS, WITH SAY BIG MAC, HE SAYS RIGHT BEFORE '98 THAT HE'S GOING FOR MARIS'S RECORD, AND FIRST GAME, HE HITS A TOWERING BLAST THAT LEAVES EVERYBODY SHAKEN, AND HE'S ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE USA TODAY SPORTS SECTION. I WAS NOT FOLLOWING BASEBALL, BUT EVEN I NOTICED IN THE PHOTO HOW MARK NOW LOOKED LIKE HERCULES. I READ THE ARTICLE. SAID HE WAS TAKING SOMETHING FOR HIS AILING BACK. THAT STUCK IN MY MIND, POSITIVELY AT FIRST. EVENTUALLY, I BECAME POSITIVE THAT WHATEVER HE WAS TAKING FOR HIS BAD BACK WAS NOT ONLY HELPING HIS BACK, BUT HELPING HIS ENTIRE BODY, GIVING HIM SUPER STRENGTH. INSTEAD OF ALL THOSE FLY OUTS, THERE WERE ALL THESE "SEE YAs".

IT JUST WAS NOT RIGHT.

BARRY SAW ALL THIS, AND WHAT IT DID FOR BIG MAC AND SLAMMIN SAMMY, AND DECIDED, "HEY, I'M GONNA GET SOME OF THAT, TOO!"

HE DID.

THE REST IS HISTORY, EXCEPT FOR THE HORROR STORIES THAT CONTINUE TO COME OUT ABOUT THE YOUTH WHO ALSO WATCHED WITH INTRIGUE AND INTEREST, AND DECIDED THEY WERE GOING TO GET SOME "STUFF" TO MAKE THEM GROW BIGGER AND STRONGER, TOO.

GAYLORD, ELSTON, AND WHITEY WERE PLAYING PATTYCAKE, COMPARED TO MARK MCGWIRE, SAMMY SOSA, BARRY BONDS, AND ROGER CLEMONS (AMONG OTHERS).

I AM CERTAIN I WON'T CONVINCE YOU, BUT YOU ASKED A GOOD QUESTION.

HAPPY NEW YEAR, MY FELLOW COLLECTOR. TAKE CARE. ---BRIAN POWELL

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brian, thanks for the response, but I think you've put yourself on a slippery slope, when you say (as I understand you) your objection to cheating depends on what you perceive as the degree of impact. And unless I missed it you didn't address greenies which, I repeat, were illegal to use without a prescription after 1970 or so. I infer you think they were more like pat-a-cake too?

[PowderedH2O]

In NASCAR, the old saying says "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying". In NASCAR, if you are caught cheating, your wins are taken away and your records disappear. Did that happen in baseball? Nope. MLB reaped all the benefits of the home runs of the steroid era. There was no way they would disqualify McGwire, Sosa, or Bonds. Later on, MLB decides to be all holy and taint steroid users. If MLB had any cajones, they would have nipped it in the 1990's. They didn't, so all results are official. Since Bonds and Clemens have OFFICIAL numbers that rank among the best ever, I see no reason not to include them, especially when the ringmaster himself (Selig) is in for no great performance of his own.

[shagrotn77]

Wow. This thing is practically split right down the middle.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brian, thanks for the response, but I think you've put yourself on a slippery slope, when you say (as I understand you) your objection to cheating depends on what you perceive as the degree of impact. And unless I missed it you didn't address greenies which, I repeat, were illegal to use without a prescription after 1970 or so. I infer you think they were more like pat-a-cake too?

Honestly, Peter, you can take what I know about greenies and MLB and stick it in your eye, as my dear grandmother would say. I mean, I know absolutely nothing, including what greenies would do to improve one's performance.

When I think of steroids, and their degree of impact, as you aptly put it, their impact would be total. Once the ROID users were fully loaded, so to speak, EVERY time they came to bat, they were ready to power the ball way farther than they would have been able to at their best pre-ROID level. That is simply an illegal, disturbing advantage that is flat-out cheating. It doesn't matter that MLB had not deemed the drugs illegal during those years. All too often MLB moves at glacier speed to clean up its act, take appropriate action, and in the end, do the right thing. Naturally, my thinking of "doing the right thing" will frequently not coincide with someone else.

Be that as it may, the damage to MLB baseball and its reputation and records is essentially irreversible. Perhaps MLB's hierarchy is waiting for its fans to cease caring and give in to apathy. So much of their lame-brained inaction stems from a deep-seeded fear any decision will cause a deep drop in revenue. Perhaps they feel this lengthening ensuing period of years of leaving the record books alone, and thus rewarding the ROIDS with the home run records, is the right thing to do. After all, they broke the records. They fail to understand, and accept the fact that more than ever today, people want to know the story behind the story, what really went down, the true cause and effect.

Tis true, my equating slobber and scuff ball tricks to patty cake might be a slippery slope, but remember, all the umpires were watching, as well as the opposing team's dugout, as well as the fans. At any time, the umps could have seen something, called time, and lowered the boom. I found it quite entertaining, and yes, they were taking a slippery slope chance of having the boom lowered upon them. Be that as it may, come on, man, when the ass-terROIDS became the game face of baseball with their loaded bodies and mind-boggling home run and slugging percentage numbers, no one could do a thing for years. 'Twas those boomers that believed they could lower the boom on MLB pitching and get away with it. My, haven't their bodies shrunk today? It is amazing they're still alive.

Too late to say, but I'm getting verbose again.

Tis a hot stove league topic that will stay stoked 24/7 year-round. Nobody is really happy about the whole thing, either.

--- Brian Powell

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are no great answers here, particularly as I think doing whatever it takes to get an edge always has been and always will be part of sports, and I think it perhaps is unfair to ostracize those who got caught because there probably are equal numbers who used more discreetly.

It may not be entirely defensible, but I would say yes to Bonds and Clemens because they were top tier near certain HOFers before they (allegedly) used, or at least before the popular perception is of when they started. There are other guys whose numbers make them easy candidates but I don't care so much if they never get in, e.g. Sosa and Palmeiro. Maybe it's inconsistent.