Card doctoring...

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

"once slabbed a card becomes a commodity and the alteration is irrelevant"

This is the root of the problem.

Yup. We as collectors hand over all our power with this, and simply repeat it. We accept it and form long lines to have it done again. Education and knowledge take a back seat to what someone behind a curtain says. In this regard, TPGs have simply made doctoring more acceptable as long as it passes by them...b/c, of course, its graded.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Yup. We as collectors hand over all our power with this, and simply repeat it. We accept it and form long lines to have it done again. Education and knowledge take a back seat to what someone behind a curtain says. In this regard, TPGs have simply made doctoring more acceptable as long as it passes by them...b/c, of course, its graded.

It doesn't help when you hear people talking about resubmitting cards over & over again until they get the grade that they feel is appropriate.

[mckinneyj]

> if one of the major TPGs slab a card, it's legitimate

> once slabbed a card becomes a commodity

> observation about the cards certain people buy versus those they sell


These and other thoughts have recently occurred to me as well and I find myself left jaded a bit and wondering what the future might be. The fact that we even need TPGs I find somewhat disconcerting... I'd rather that all cards were "raw" and authentic and unaltered (and there are differing opinions on what constitutes alteration for that matter) - but that's not our world. I wonder if someday should I need or want to liquidate my collection will uncertainty of how these traits are viewed have negatively impacted today's value - I suppose that its just a hobby; but still... I sometimes think that one big scandal involving a major TPG will crush that value - again, just a hobby; but we're all acquiring/buying in a market that is heavily propped up by the influence that TPGs have on it. Just another small fish writing here...

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by mckinneyj

> if one of the major TPGs slab a card, it's legitimate

> once slabbed a card becomes a commodity

> observation about the cards certain people buy versus those they sell


These and other thoughts have recently occurred to me as well and I find myself left jaded a bit and wondering what the future might be. The fact that we even need TPGs I find somewhat disconcerting... I'd rather that all cards were "raw" and authentic and unaltered (and there are differing opinions on what constitutes alteration for that matter) - but that's not our world. I wonder if someday should I need or want to liquidate my collection will uncertainty of how these traits are viewed have negatively impacted today's value - I suppose that its just a hobby; but still... I sometimes think that one big scandal involving a major TPG will crush that value - again, just a hobby; but we're all acquiring/buying in a market that is heavily propped up by the influence that TPGs have on it. Just another small fish writing here...

If PSA gets caught in a major scandal that send hoards of customers away, all the values collapse. This could be a thesis, but just imagine that you woke up tomorrow and every PSA card was 10 cents on the dollar...

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

If PSA gets caught in a major scandal that send hoards of customers away, all the values collapse. This could be a thesis, but just imagine that you woke up tomorrow and every PSA card was 10 cents on the dollar...

IMHO, Steve, that will never happen because I believe demand is like the step pyramid for scarce to downright rare, significant vintage cards. If the upper crust of the demand supporting the price falls off, there is that next layer only a small step down to catch it. Contrast that with the demand for the cards of the young, current, but unproven for the long run phenoms. That demand, creating current high prices, is much more like an extension ladder, swaying in the breeze, susceptible to falling over and all the way down when the new "superstar" proves himself to be fatally flawed or simply overrated.

Good luck in you collecting, and hopefully Michigan will eventually give the Spartans and Oh how we hate Ohio State better competition in the future!

Larry

[Marchillo]

Funny this post got added today. Today I had two cards posted with SGC that were deemed "color added". I've had all other cards always receive a grade and then today 2/6 are color added. Funny thing is I bought the cards at least 6 months apart from different sellers and it was a 62 Topps and a 75 Topps. So wasn't like it was 2 - 71 Topps from the same batch from the same seller. I think it's relevant to the OP because I've never had this happen in dozens of sumissioms and now 2 in a single submission? Maybe one was obvious so they took a harder look at the rest? Kind of supports the notion that maybe some of my other submissions had alterations but they weren't picked up.

[drcy]

Provenance, provenance, provenance

Yes, many graded cards have been altered, and a common problem with graded baseball card collectors is many don't give one hoot, one care, where the card came from, just its current entombed grade. If they inquired, even insisted, on documented history-- even if merely having the seller of a gem mint card demonstrating that he got the card in that condition--, many alterations would be revealed.

The Importance of Provenance in Collecting

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by drcy

Provenance, provenance, provenance

Yes, many graded cards have been altered, and a common problem with graded baseball card collectors is many don't give one hoot, one care, where the card came from, just its current entombed grade. If they inquired, even insisted, on documented history-- even if merely having the seller of a gem mint card demonstrating that he got the card in that condition--, many alterations would be revealed.

The Importance of Provenance in Collecting

That "not giving a hoot" is a problem.

The TPGs allowed so much more "collectors" cough investors in. They brought tons and tons of money. No more barrier to enter the hobby, no knowledge is needed and TPGs opened that door. SO while ALL our collections have appreciated, I believe the fraud has increased and the name of the game is getting some by the goalie into a slab. It has helped the hobby economically and hurt it colleting wise...and it will never be the same. Most of it is just a commodity now.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

That "not giving a hoot" is a problem.

The TPGs allowed so much more "collectors" cough investors in. They brought tons and tons of money. No more barrier to enter the hobby, no knowledge is needed and TPGs opened that door. SO while ALL our collections have appreciated, I believe the fraud has increased and the name of the game is getting some by the goalie into a slab. It has helped the hobby economically and hurt it collecting wise...and it will never be the same. Most of it is just a commodity now.

That the hobby, or at least many collectors/investors, exists in such ignorance (often willful and self-deluding) or don't care, does not mean it will always be that way. Perhaps in 20 years, the high graded cards worth the most will be the ones with well-documented provenance. Remember that documenting provenance isn't just for the now, but for posterity.

[Leon]

Unless we see the act of altering first hand we can't really say for sure (unless there is an admission )? That is a big issue.


And since we are on the subject, restoration and altering have been around a long time. No doubt before this too. The write-in is a familiar name too.





.

[Johnny630]

Throughout my TPG experience I have found that if SGC gives one of my cards a numerical grade I can take it to the bank that its real/authentic and unaltered. I trust SGC, imo they're accurate and very strick on their assesment of issues such as authenticity and alterations.

I'll buy SGC cards all day long over PSA.

[robkas68]

Although card doctoring has been around for decades the original motivation was mostly for the personal satisfaction of the collector. Obviously there was some money motivation 30 years ago, but nothing like today. And I cannot help but see the irony that the grading companies offer an expensive solution to a problem they helped create. (I'm an attorney and we are good at creating expensive solutions to problems we created too). I have a 1956 Mantle psa 6 and a psa 9. (the 9 by the way is overgraded and about as attractive as the 6).

30 years ago the reaction to the cards would be those are two nice Mantles, I'll give you an extra $20 for that one. Now that psa has dictated that the two cards have subtle differences that justify an insane $30,000 difference in price, there is powerful motivation for plastic surgery.

I collect mostly vintage, but last year I put together a 1986 Fleer basketball set all psa 8. I paid $11 for my psa 8 Johnny Moore card. Somebody paid over $15,000 for a psa 10. Can you honestly tell me that the small differences in the card of a journeyman player justify a $15,000 price difference. Especially since if we broke the cases and resubmitted they might both come back a "9".

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by robkas68

Although card doctoring has been around for decades the original motivation was mostly for the personal satisfaction of the collector. Obviously there was some money motivation 30 years ago, but nothing like today. And I cannot help but see the irony that the grading companies offer an expensive solution to a problem they helped create. (I'm an attorney and we are good at creating expensive solutions to problems we created too). I have a 1956 Mantle psa 6 and a psa 9. (the 9 by the way is overgraded and about as attractive as the 6).

30 years ago the reaction to the cards would be those are two nice Mantles, I'll give you an extra $20 for that one. Now that psa has dictated that the two cards have subtle differences that justify an insane $30,000 difference in price, there is powerful motivation for plastic surgery.

I collect mostly vintage, but last year I put together a 1986 Fleer basketball set all psa 8. I paid $11 for my psa 8 Johnny Moore card. Somebody paid over $15,000 for a psa 10. Can you honestly tell me that the small differences in the card of a journeyman player justify a $15,000 price difference. Especially since if we broke the cases and resubmitted they might both come back a "9".

A HUGE +1 there! And that's why I try to go after ultra-rare cards of stars and HOF'ers,rather than ultra-high grade ones. But collectors are by nature competitive, even if only with themselves, but especially so in striving to have something "better" than the next guy. It's in our DNA. As a consequence, for modern cards, "better" means a higher grade (or a card that is supposedly such). You are absolutely right--the actual difference in the cards bearing different grades many, many times can't come even remotely close to justifying the difference in prices paid. But those who collect cards with the "magical" "9" or "10" on their TPG holder believe that possessiing the one with the higher TPG grade gives them bragging rights. Collectors like me simply think they're wasting a lot of money on the holders and slips within them. I'm an attorney also, by the way--40 years of practice, primarily in personal injury law at the trial level, and both civil and criminal appeals, as well as petitions for writs of habeas corpus in the federal court system.

May your collecting bring you joy in any event,

Larry

PS: I believe it was Mastro that said that any pre-war card graded higher than a "7" had been tampered with. Buyers of TPG "8's" and "9's" from that era--caveat emptor!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

PS: I believe it was Mastro that said that any pre-war card graded higher than a "7" had been tampered with. Buyers of TPG "8's" and "9's" from that era--caveat emptor!

And he probably had something to do with more than one of them. I don't doubt that assessment. I'll never forget one of the first times I realized all was not as it appeared. It was a group of Allen and Ginters, all graded 8. They looked skinny as hell. Another formative experience was a dealer friend observing that certain guys who bought his well-centered EX and EX MT cards at shows seemed to have the same cards in 8s at the next show.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

Unless we see the act of altering first hand we can't really say for sure (unless there is an admission )? That is a big issue.


And since we are on the subject, restoration and altering have been around a long time. No doubt before this too. The write-in is a familiar name too.





.

pretty much as leon said...although even with cases with proof(before and after images) which appear periodically on this board...nothing seems to ever happen.

the cards should be destroyed or somehow permanently labelled as such... and TPG'ing companies should be held accountable for their errors.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Well you always run the risk of someone posting the exact card on a prior sale in which the cards look identical but for the alteration.

So theres a ticking time bomb and musical chairs as the card keeps changing hands before the music ends


I have often touted an ownership registry with pictures so you can tell if your 1952 Mantle is claimed to be owned by someone else and it would also aid in the alteration issue, maybe I'm before my time there as well.

[WillowGrove]

Leon - thanks for posting that from Lew.

I guess I should not be surprised but seeing such details and proof in print from so long ago, kinda confirms for me that a lot of doctoring is being done today.

I've been seeing/handling t206's, etc since the late 1970s and I don't remember seeing so many sharp old cards as I do today. Could they have come out of olde timie collections? I guess. But if I was a betting man, and I am, I think doctoring is pretty darn wide-spread.

Sad face.

peter

[drcy]

For my book, I did a case study research on ancient American Indian artifacts. Many of the artifacts on the market have similarly been altered and for similarly various reasons-- from a century old farmer innocently cleaning up a chipped age of an arrowhead he found in his field to a modern dealer deceptively reshaping a broken artifacts into a whole or even better shape.

Luckily, in this area the authentic artifacts are centuries old with centuries old wear, patina and mineral deposits from the earth, so you can identify when and where an arrowhead or such has been altered in modern times. Unlike with baseball cards, a razor sharp edge or corner is not a desirable quality.

[samosa4u]

1. Any foreign substance removed from any card is an improvement and need not be mentioned to a buyer.

I don't consider this restoration, such as removing glue residue on the back, but it should at least be pointed out to the buyer. Most buyers IMO are OK with this.

2. Anything added to (like color) a card is fraudulent. Or building up corners. Horrors!

Agreed. How the hell do they rebuild corners? That is FREAKY!

3. Nobody should trim cards. It's not the same card.

Agreed.

4) If ironing out creases is successful, fine.

Hell no! Sometimes these creases or wrinkles can reappear many months or years down the line (when the card is sitting inside a PSA 8 case!)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

1. Any foreign substance removed from any card is an improvement and need not be mentioned to a buyer.

I don't consider this restoration, such as removing glue residue on the back, but it should at least be pointed out to the buyer. Most buyers IMO are OK with this.

2. Anything added to (like color) a card is fraudulent. Or building up corners. Horrors!

Agreed. How the hell do they rebuild corners? That is FREAKY!

3. Nobody should trim cards. It's not the same card.

Agreed.

4) If ironing out creases is successful, fine.

Hell no! Sometimes these creases or wrinkles can reappear many months or years down the line (when the card is sitting inside a PSA 8 case!)

Yeah re 4 I've seen that happen at least twice, either that or PSA somehow missed the very obvious wrinkle the first time which is highly unlikely.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

[

2. Anything added to (like color) a card is fraudulent. Or building up corners. Horrors!

Restored corners and major restoration like that is easy to identify. I wouldn't worry about that stuff sneaking forever undetectable into the hobby.