T-210 Market

[Bill Stone]

Judging by the final bids on the T-210 Series 6 cards that just ended on eBay I think it is safe to say that the demand for those cards remains very high.

[DixieBaseball]

Prices for Series 8 and 6 seem to be as strong as they were 2-3 years ago... Supply and Demand here, as these series just don't come around enough to quinch the T210 collector's thirst, therefore creating double digit (Dozen or more bidders) bidding frenzy on Sunday night.

[FrankWakefield]

I was watching those. Even had a few bids in, just in case anything went for too little...

I was the underbidder on the series 7 Hyames sgc10 card. I think that's Judson Hyames who was a baseball coach at Western Michagan. It went for $156. I'd have bid a bit more if the scan had been better. It was a good scan of the holder, another image of just the card, that would have had detail, that would have gotten me to bid a bit more.

In series 6, Kuhlman and Kaiser sgc10s each sold for $83, I think that was a good deal. Goostree standing sgc10 went for $305, a good, strong price. And Gisler sgc10 went for $255, about right. Angermeier portrait sgc20 went for $91, I think the buyer did well on that. The best graded of the series 6 cards was Womble sgc40, it sold for $114, which seems a low price.

8 different series 6 cards closed Sunday night. That's the most I've seen in a long time... Now if only an Angermeier fielding will show up....

[DixieBaseball]

Is Angermeier Fielding all you need now ? (I was thinking you needed Whitaker, but you may have filled that slot).

Also, I agree, the Angermeier and Womble went for a great price to the buyer.

[Matt]

Did a board member win the Lindsay, or did it go to a family member?

[cfc1909]

I watched these also and was a bit surprised in the series 6 Womble. The 210 seems to be doing well at the present time. There was a low grade Hyames a few months ago that went for under $100. I was surprised to see the $156 final on this one.

Nice to see some outright auctions -not much of that going on on ebay any more.

[B O'Brien]

Being a KY boy myself, back in the day anyway, I have been thinking about starting on the Series 6 set for the last year or so. I would love to start one day, but am still waiting for the prices/demand to taper off a little bit. Once again, not this week!
Take care,
Bob

[deadballera]

A few of the cards I was planning to make some late bids.

Some of them went over what I was hoping they would sell for....

Great cards for the lucky bidder.

[ScottFandango]

i just dont see why these cards are desirable...

they are of no name minor leaguers (except a few)

are monochromatic, sort of ugly

no true chase cards or rarites

am I MISSING something?

signed an E90-1 collector (which seems to be the opposite of this set)

[FrankWakefield]

Yes, I believe you're missing many somethings.

And yes, Jeremy, by way of good fortune and the kindness or others, I'm in the process of acquiring the card of JF Whitaker, that hard hitting left fielder who batted cleanup for the Richmond Pioneers. The card is slabbed, and is from the Skydash bunch.

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

i just dont see why these cards are desirable...

they are of no name minor leaguers (except a few)

are monochromatic, sort of ugly

no true chase cards or rarites

am I MISSING something?

signed an E90-1 collector (which seems to be the opposite of this set)

*

It is obvious that your mindset is very deep into the history of the game.

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Yes, I believe you're missing many somethings.

And yes, Jeremy, by way of good fortune and the kindness or others, I'm in the process of acquiring the card of JF Whitaker, that hard hitting left fielder who batted cleanup for the Richmond Pioneers. The card is slabbed, and is from the Skydash bunch.

*

Atta boy Frank, you're almost there, and that elusive fielding Angermeier, is just over the next hill.

[Bill Stone]

Way to go Frank --I remember we both missed out on that Whitaker some time ago on eBay ---good luck on Angermeier fielding.

[oldjudge]

Good point Scott. Collect a set with beautiful cards like the E90-1 Jackson. LOL

[DixieBaseball]

Scott - Interesting perspective, as I once looked at these the same way as you did many years ago when all I collected were HOF players. A few things that strikes me interesting about these cards is their true scarcity. A collector can wait years for any number of players to surface and for me that adds to the allure as opposed to getting a common T206 HOFer or even Southern Leaguer. Besides the scarcity, the T210 set has in my humble opinion some of the most unique poses of any tobbacco set in the world. (All tobbaco sets have a handful of neat poses, but this set seems to have buckets of them...) Thirdly, this set seems to hold many stories behind the story if you know what I mean. (It takes a little digging, but a lot of these guys mixed it up in the Major Leagues... Especially the Southern League Series 8 guys)

As far as your comments about rarity, I think many would disagree, but that is up for debate on the "What is rare" thread. If you consider a few dozen or less examples rare, then I believe that there are plenty of cards in this set that may qualify.

Of course desirability is in the eye of the beholder, and to each his own. I think I have seen several advanced collectors get into this set once they bought their 9th Cobb, finished an E sub-set, etc... This set has a certain charm about it...

As for the no name minor leaguers, there are actually several minor leaguers who played in the Big's, and some that actually chose to play careers in the Minor's and there are a bunch that were very good ball players.

As for just a few rarities, sure the Stengel and Jackson get mentioned all the time, but players like Moxie Manuel, Ted Breitenstein, Bill Bernhard, Hub Perdue, Everett Hornsby, Gowdy, Cross, and Benton among many have their own stories. I think that adds to the fun of collecting this set - the history and the minor research one can do to find more out about these dudes.

Lastly, this set can be collected by the most advanced collector and the beginner. So many different ways to collect it. Collect a town, a series, or the whole set.

Finally, as a collector, I like the fact that not everyone wants to collect this set. It not being mainstream is probably one of the major reasons, why I do collect it.

Take care,

Jeremy

[Bill Stone]

Well put Jeremy. I started collecting this set years ago when I bought a framed magazine supplement that had pictured a number of baseball cards including many T206s and at the bottom row there was a picture of some Kentucky players. To discover who they were I was fortunate to find this site and some active collectors who were so helpful. I started with Frankfort and after completing that team ( yes Frank even Angermeier fielding although to call it a beater would be a supreme compliment) and have since been working on the other teams . The fun part for me is I can go to any of the towns and the local library will generally have an archive of newspapers and the stories just always seems to bring these players to life. When I read about a player being arrested for disorderly conduct at the bar down the street I can actually see the spot. So many great local stories surround these teams it never get boring to explore them. Many of these guys lived right in the town ,their wives took tickets at the local movie theater and you can visit their graves at the local cemetery -something about that makes it very personal to me. Finally looking at these cards gives me a smile when I see the cocky attitude some of them have--leaning on the bat , hat off center, always something. I remember reading how all the barber shops in Frankfort would close early on opening day so everyone could go to the ballpark.

[Bester]

The main draw for me is that the T210 set contains an entire subset from the Pre-WWI Texas League. Other than a few T206 SL cards, it is the only set to do so. I really enjoy the thought of collecting tobacco cards of players that played in or around the area where I was born and raised.

[FrankWakefield]

And when I read this....

"Finally looking at these cards gives me a smile when I see the cocky attitude some of them have--leaning on the bat"

I think of this:




Not until 1969, with Topps' 664 card base set, was there a greater offering of baseball cards since the 1910 Old Mill red border T210's.

Truthfully, the white border tobacco cards can be assembled if the collector has money. With plenty of money the cards can be acquired in lots and near sets. With eBay and the internet a set can be assembled fairly quickly, if money is no object, so long as the collector defines his stopping point, 518, 520, 523 or onward. These cards have a powerful, magnetic draw. The era, the players, the stories (of both the players and the cards), the colors... I can see why these are MUCH more popular than the red border Old Mills.

With the T210s, a fellow can focus on a single team and that in and of itself can be quite a challenge. A series can take a while. And all 640, that's been done; it has been done much less often than completing T206s.

I understand that they all look alike to some folks, and that many collectors don't recognize hardly any of the players. Those, and the other reasons mentioned, are why T210's weren't the first set that caught my collecting attention. So I think we T210 collectors understand where you and most collectors are on T210's, Scott; it's just that we T210 collectors caught the bug. It's similar to learning to like strip cards.

I've sold almost all of my T210's, other than the series 6 cards, so I could focus on those. I decided I'd never get close to 640. Being a Kentuckian is part of why I kept the series 6 cards. A couple of weeks ago I was in Lexington's library, looking at microfilm of old 1910 papers, and making photocopies. I'd like to set out the 1910 season of the Bluegrass League in a book. Tickets for the games were 50 cents. That seems high for 1910, but fans still turned out. Now Bill, which one was arrested for being disorderly when???

[rhettyeakley]

Well put Jeremy. For a lot of people (myself included) that have been collecting cards for a while (20+ years) it just gets hard to get excited about another T206 card, or even an E90-1 card for that matter. I tend to like cards with actual likenesses of the players depicted, something missing on a lot of the E90-1 cards (not all though as there are some great E90-1's). Also, as a history buff the most exciting thing for me as I pick up a card of a player I had never heard of before is to do some research on them. In my opinion, it's when you get past the well-documented Major Leaguers that this hobby gets the most interesting & fun.

If I wasn't already collecting Zeenuts I would be going after this series, and I'm sure someday I will, as this series has everything in it that I enjoy about collecting a card set.

-Rhett

[Bill Stone]

Frank --the T210 of Yaeger is exactly the one I was thinking of.

On December 25,1910 there was a so-called " Christmas Riot" in downtown Frankfort. According to local accounts and an article in the Washington Post December 28, 1910 Grover Land ( a Frankfort boy who played in the major league for Cleveland) and Pat Bohannon ( who is in the T210 set) were arrested in connection with what was thought to be a fatal shooting of Stephen Theophanis, a Greek who owned a restaurant in downtown Frankfort. The story goes that they had a prolonged and noisy Christmas celebration that lasted until 5 AM . At that time someone threw firecrackers into the place , there was a fracas and eventually the owner was shot. He lived but the men were indicted on misdemeanor charges and released on $200 bonds.

[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

i just dont see why these cards are desirable...

they are of no name minor leaguers (except a few)

are monochromatic, sort of ugly

no true chase cards or rarites

am I MISSING something?

signed an E90-1 collector (which seems to be the opposite of this set)

Scott, I felt the same way, and based on conversations with some of my collecting friends, you are not alone.
I did see some of these at the National, and up close, I think they are pretty cool looking cards.

I can definitely see where you are coming from though.

[Potomac Yank]

Scott brought out most of the T210 aficionados.

Now that we're here, who picked up what T210 in that auction?

I'll start it off with the new slot fillers to join the other 356:

Kuhlman - Lindsay - Seitz - Bronkie.

[Bill Stone]

I added Atwell and Reed of Winchester.

[Potomac Yank]

You picked up two very nice cards, are you now working on the Winchester team set?

[Bill Stone]

Just picking up Series 6 cards at random now. As I start to get close on closing out a team I am sure I will get more selective.

[Kawika]

Had jury duty today. Perp burglarized the local Sears. Tattooed knuckles, penitentiary face, ainokea clothes. One ugly bugger. I was dismissed, thank goodness. Am joining the T210 lovefest late. The eloquence of some of the above comments would be difficult to equal. I ain't gonna try. I have dabbled in the T210s with no particular focus for a few years now. The set has something for everyone. For me: a killer Stengel, Blue Grass League rookie, players like Big Jeff Tesreau who made a name in the majors, guys like Sisson and McGeehan that cross to the Contentneas, Sally Leaguers, Texas Leaguers and a "large assortment" of obscure "baseball subjects" of a 100 years ago, irresistably posed on cardboard like Goostree or Deardorff (Thanks, Jeremy), each one's story a mystery to be sleuthed. For me the T210s evoke the mythology of baseball when it really was the National Pastime, a ballyard with a wooden grandstand in every two-bit town filled with youngsters who were our grandparents and Civil War veterans and Americans who were transitioning in to the newfangled century, nary a tattooed scowl to be seen, a game played at a high level, sometimes good enough to go to the Bigs, by young men who weren't businessmen or role models or egomaniacs, just ballplayers who were happy to wear a baseball uniform and play the game and maybe get their picture on a piece of cardboard.









Oh, yeah . . I won the Goostree "Hands Behind Back" and McTigue the other night. He posted a bunch more for sale tonight. Good fun!

PS. Frank: I hope you write that book someday. Put me down for a copy.

[hanksta]

Matt,
I was outbid on the Lindsay...not a family member, just my wife's name...and a reason to spend more $$.

Sean

[Matt]

Originally Posted by hanksta

Matt,
I was outbid on the Lindsay...not a family member, just my wife's name...and a reason to spend more $$.

Sean

Sean - looks like Joe picked it up. I asked that because Lindsay relatives have been picking up his cards for several years making them tougher then other "commons" out there (e.g. his 1911 Zeenut).

[rdixon1208]

As Britt already said, I like them mostly because they have a Texas League series, particularly a Houston team. I love learning about the local players. You know the Giants would come to town for exhibition games every year. Old articles and box scores can be found through the NY Times archives online. Something about reading about an obscure player like Harry Storch (hit Christy Mathewson pretty well) makes the hobby so much fun. Another member actually has a PC of Mathewson at the ballpark in Galveston, TX during one of their exhibition tours. It's on the "Favorite Card" thread now.

[rhettyeakley]

David, very eloquent post, I love it.

On a side note, unless Smead Jolley is the mascot from series 7 he isn't in the set, as he was born in 1902. The Jolley pictured in Series 3's name is Abe.

-Rhett

[Kawika]

Rhett: Smead Jolley, Boy Wonder. Like my tagline says: Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about. Goes to show what happens when you don't do your homework. Thanks for the correction; I have edited my post. I could have added Joe Jackson to the conversation but I don't have his T210 and am not expecting to anytime soon.

[Epps]

Wow, that Stengel is amazing!

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by Matt

Sean - looks like Joe picked it up. I asked that because Lindsay relatives have been picking up his cards for several years making them tougher then other "commons" out there (e.g. his 1911 Zeenut).

*

I also was a little befuddled by the family comment.
I didn't know about the Lindsay relatives.
Except for one time, I've honored the none competition for a relatives card.
The reason is almost laughable.
I agreed to step aside if any came up ... that is until this mental Giant decided to run up a card (not a relative) that I had already placed a bid on ... you guessed it, all agreements were OFF the table.

Matt, being that you originally posed the Lindsay question, did you have any luck in the auction? ... I hope you did.

[oldjudge]

Here are a few of those boring T210s

[Epps]

Wow, another awesome Stengel!

[oldjudge]

Frank--I'm disappointed. I thought the Angemeier fielding would get a response out of you

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Here are a few of those boring T210s

*

The goy on the right is saying ..... "Carry me back to Old Kentucky."

And the guy on the left never had a clue that in about 40 years, he would go to Da Bronx, and do pretty well there.

So much for boredom.

BTW Jay, those are great loookin cards.

[yoyot1]

Is the general interest in the T210 set a fairly recent thing? I started collecting pre-war cards back in 2000-01 with the T206 set, and vaguely remember bypassing a lot of cheap red borders on ebay back then. I've been out of collecting for 4-5 years, so was a little surprised to see some of the prices on the red borders - I checked the most recent SCD price guide I have (2002) and sure enough the prices seem to match my recollection.

[FrankWakefield]

Golly, Jay. What can I say about it... a few of us understand the beauty of these Old Mill red border Bluegrass League cards, and most of the folks could care less. I do thank you for posting it...

Leo Thomas Angermeier played in over 600 professional games. A catcher. In 1921 he hit .321 for the pennant winning Frankfort Statesmen. His average was 84 points better than the next best hitting team-mate. His 147 hits was high for the team; and his 17 doubles tied for team best. He handled the pitchers, anchored the team, and was a main reason they won the pennant. I knew you had that card with his grin and that large catcher's mitt. If I ever stop by for a visit you need to be sure you don't leave that card laying around. Or if you find yourself with a duplicate one day, hollar down Kentucky way.

While that's a beautiful Stengel, it is Angermeier with that glove that I'd ask for, if offered both. How many folks here would say that???

And David, your Goostree leaning on his bat, that is a great card!!! I see that "A" on there, and to some it isn't as attractive as those "50's" you've posted, but that's a really nice, tough card. Second nicest to me is that card of Jeff Tesreau (now how did he get to be called 'Jeff'?). He was a solid pitcher for Mr. McGraw in 1912. McGraw's other starters we've all heard of because of T206... Mathewson, Marquard, Ames, and Wiltse. But I don't think the Giants can win like they did if they'd lost Tesreau and replaced him with a .500 pitcher. I'd not seen a Tesreau card, just knew it was on Mr. Lipset's list. If you find yourself with a spare one that's a bit worn, please let me know!

[rdixon1208]

Hubbard "Hub" Northen - Outfielder
Led Houston to the Texas League Championship in 1910 with a .311 BA and a team leading 160 hits, 7 triples, and 6 HR.

Minors, 15 seasons, .270 BA, 42 HR - Managed 4 seasons

Majors (SLB, CIN, BRO) 3 seasons (162 games), .272 BA, 3 HR



Highlights:

October 9, 1910, During the first game of a double header, Hub Northen “fell all over himself” trying to field a fly ball hit by Nap Lajoie that ended up being a triple. Lajoie got seven more base hits during the twinbill, all of them bunts. This "enabled" Lajoie to overtake Ty Cobb for the season’s batting title.

On September 16, 1912, Casey Stengel made his first major league appearance in the place of Hub, who was sick that day. Stengel got four hits and a walk that day. Northen was released at the end of the season, his last in the big leagues.

Northen is also in the T207 set.

[FrankWakefield]

ScottFandango, you need to stay away from Robert Dixon and folks like that. Obviously, Robert was chomped on hard by the T210 bug. Great post, Robert. Scott, if that bug ever bites you, you might not ever recover...

[martindl]

A few years ago I picked up a group of backed individual photo's of the 1916 (I think) Columbus Georgia team. They had originally been on a large display but had to be cut down due to very bad water damage. Interested in learning more about these men, I found some had T210's and my search was on.

Here are a few of those photo's alongside their card.

[FrankWakefield]

That's what I'm talking about!!! The T210 bug left teethmarks in poor old martindl....

James Fox played first base in Columbus, 1909 through 1915. He was with Portsmouth for 1916, his last year in professional baseball. Fox managed the 1910 Columbus Foxes.

Elmer Benson was a second sacker. He was with Columbus for part of 1909, all of 1910. In 1911 he moved up to class B ball. If you see him with a Columbus team for 1913, 1914, and 1915, that is the Columbus Senators in Ohio in the American Association, class AA ball. We've just past his birthday, September 11, 1884.

William Hille was a third baseman, he was with the Columbus Foxes for 1909, 1910, and 1911. In 1912 he moved to the class B Texas League, where he played until he returned to Columbus, Georgia for the 1917 season, appearing in 28 games, 9 of them as a pinch hitter.

So I think your bigger photos depict them from a bit earlier than 1916. Benson is only there for a year and a half... gotta be the end of the 1909 season, or the 1910 season.

One of the catchers for those 1910 Columbus Foxes was Raymond Krebs... I wonder if he was Maynard G. Krebs' grandfather...

Absolutely great photos!!! Do you have any more of those that don't match up to a T210?? And that's only your 8th post!@%$!% How can you have great stuff like that and be sitting on it?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

One of the catchers for those 1910 Columbus Foxes was Raymond Krebs... I wonder if he was Maynard G. Krebs' grandfather...

Frank,

The Maynard G. Krebs joke will fly far over the head of most on this board, for age reasons. But all I can say is: "WORK!!!!"

[Rob D.]

A few of us understand the beauty of Maynard G. Krebs, and most of the folks could (sic) care less.

[martindl]

Thanks for the info Frank. The folder where these scans are kept I named "1909 Columbus", so that should have clued me in. I need coffee.

Re 8th post, I used to be a lot more active on here but now just look in a couple of times a week. I lost the bug, so to speak, hence the lack of activity.

I've got 11 photos in all. I don't want to derail this great thread, so will not post them all, but here are one of two more seeing as you asked.

After Jim's comment I had to look up Maynard G. Krebs. Very funny.

[barrysloate]

Maynard G. Krebs was Dobie Gillis's best friend, and Bob Denver's best role, long before Gilligan. His signature line: "Work!" (he had an aversion to it).

[Bill Stone]

Great photos --thanks for posting them. I still think Thalia Menninger (Tuesday Weld) was one of the prettiest girls on TV at the time.

[barrysloate]

Remember Warren Beatty as Milton Armitrage?

[Bill Stone]

and Michael J. Pollard played Maynard's cousin Jerome. Pollard later played C. W. Moss in Bonnie and Clyde ( great character!!) along with Beatty. So many of these early TV shows had characters who were with us for years to come which makes it fun to remember. Oh well , back to T210 cards .