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  #1  
Old 09-04-2013, 08:20 PM
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Roofman4 Roofman4 is offline
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Default Seeking thoughts and opinions.

Hello all,

A lot of interesting reading here lately with regards to forged, faked and counterfeit cards, unscrupulous/dishonest sellers, uneducated buyers in regards to protecting ourselves when purchasing cards. My question is: If you came across confirmed fake,forged or counterfeit cards...would you be willing to spend a small amount of money to buy the known counterfeit card for the purpose of self educating? Has anyone already done this?

Seems to me a couple bucks to buy one of these cards on the front end could save you time, aggravation and most of all $$$ on the back end.

Look forward to hearing some feedback.

Scot M
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  #2  
Old 09-04-2013, 08:31 PM
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Id buy real ones. Also a loop and black light. If you're still unsure... Before paying for an auction, post the scans here.
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  #3  
Old 09-04-2013, 08:31 PM
Bestdj777 Bestdj777 is offline
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I would not. Unfortunately, not all counterfeits are exactly the same. There image different printing techniques, different card stocks, etc. So, for example, purchasing a fake 52 Mantle and analyzing wont keep you from buying a fake from a different forger in the future. On the other hand, using my example, you could purchase a low grade low number 52 Topps, analyze it , and be in a better position to recog I've fake card stock, wear, and printing techniques than you otherwise would be.
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  #4  
Old 09-04-2013, 08:33 PM
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Rick McQuillan
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Default Fakes

Hi Scot,
I have kept many of the counterfeit cards that I have unwittingly purchased over the years. I have also purchased some cheap fakes that I knew were fakes. I keep them as "exemplars" to use to compare to cards that I am considering purchasing. I don't need them as much as I did several years ago, because I have handled quite a few pre-war cards in the past several years.

I have a couple of fake CJ's, along with one low grade real CJ, and if I am considering purchasing some CJ's I can use these cards for comparison. I have also helped out friends who weren't sure if they were buying the real thing. I also have some fake T202's, 201's, T206's, Goudeys, etc help me differentiate fakes from real. I also have many authentic, low grade cards that I keep to compare to cards that I may purchase.

I like to take them to card shows because I seem to run across a lot of fakes at shows.

Rick
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  #5  
Old 09-04-2013, 08:37 PM
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As a former numismatist, I can tell you that people frequently do this with coins. Not to mention, contemporary counterfeits such as Capped Bust Halves have become their own collecting specialty.

However, for some reason, I don't really see that being analogous to cards.
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  #6  
Old 09-04-2013, 09:46 PM
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Default Thanks for the opinions.

In my travels to auctions, yard sales, estate sales etc...I recently bought a box lot of cards for 6 bucks. Once I went through the lot, I found several cards that immediately raised a red flag. Way down in the bottom of the box were several high profile Topps rookie cards in rigid holders. A 1954 Aaron and 1955 Koufax and Clemente. Also in the box was a 1951 Bowman Mantle. Being the ever alert pessimist, my thought was "too good to be true". No one with any clue would have these in this box of mid grade commons. Upon closer inspection, the Mantle and the Clemente cards had an SGC label and comment card attached identifying the cards as "COU" - counterfeit.

Obviously, someone tried to have them graded thinking they were real. After reading as much as possible on how to identify fakes/counterfeits...having known fakes in hand has proven extremely valuable with my card knowledge. I feel confident I can attend the Chantilly, VA show in Oct and work on my collection without fear of getting a fake.

Last edited by Roofman4; 09-04-2013 at 09:48 PM.
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  #7  
Old 09-04-2013, 09:52 PM
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Default my .02

Here is some good reading on the topic...

http://www.net54baseball.com/forum/c...terations.html

Reprints are worthless and in most cases won't help you learn more about the real cards. You should start by buying inexpensive cards from well known sellers.
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  #8  
Old 09-04-2013, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestdj777 View Post
I would not. Unfortunately, not all counterfeits are exactly the same. There image different printing techniques, different card stocks, etc. So, for example, purchasing a fake 52 Mantle and analyzing wont keep you from buying a fake from a different forger in the future. On the other hand, using my example, you could purchase a low grade low number 52 Topps, analyze it , and be in a better position to recog I've fake card stock, wear, and printing techniques than you otherwise would be.
Agreed. While it may be of some use, owning fakes to compare to potential real cards should never be used as a crutch. Every copy of any given real card will be the same (same stock, printing, etc.), whereas there may be 20 different versions of a fake for that one card out there, all made by different forgers, all of different quality. The better way to go about it is to familiarize yourself with the real cards rather than the fakes. Once you have a good idea of what the real ones look like, most fakes will stick out like a sore thumb.
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  #9  
Old 09-05-2013, 12:46 AM
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If it's cheap, I don't see anything wrong with buying a fake or reprint. But, as has already been said here, you learn more from the genuine cards, even if they're cheap low grade commons.

But it's not an either/or. You can do both if you want. In fact, it will be revealing and good practice to have some real cards and reprints for comparison. You'll likely notice that the reprints are obviously different than the real in various ways.

If someone's seriously interested in learning how to identify fakes, I think getting some fakes to examine and test your skills is good idea-- but in conjunction with examining real ones.

I've alway enjoyed real and fake detecting, using my microscope, learning about printing techniques, being a Junior Sherlock Holmes. For me, that's as much fun as collecting. Clearly, I'm not one who wants my collectibles to arrive hermetically sealed in a slab of plastic.

Last edited by drcy; 09-05-2013 at 01:26 AM.
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  #10  
Old 09-05-2013, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie View Post
You should start by buying inexpensive cards from well known sellers.
Bingo!

I would never collect fakes, especially as a learning tool. Would a handwriting expert learn how to authenticate George Washington's signature by studying forgeries? Of course not. And with baseball cards, as mentioned before, there are just too many different variables. You could have ten different reprints of the same card, and they could all be different. The stock, the inking, the printing technology, and the cutting technique could all be different, and look nothing like the real thing.

When I first came to Net 54, and expressed my interest in collecting pre-war and vintage cards, some members of the forum were good enough to send me a few commons from the years I mentioned I was first looking at.



Whenever I do end up buying the '56 Topps Ted Williams I have wanted for quite a while, Mr. Mass and Mr. Pascual (thank you again, Conor!) will be waiting next to my black light, my 10 x jeweler's loupe and magnifying glass, and my ruler. I will compare the Williams to these under natural light, my halogen lamp, and black light. I will examine the card stock, the surface, the corner wear, and the edges. I'll also scan the Williams at 1,200 DPI, and compare it to the scans of my commons. If there's anything not right about the card, I'll spot it.

It costs very little to build what I call a "control set." These are commons for each year and manufacturer that you will be collecting from. They are essential tools for anybody learning to collect non-modern cards.
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  #11  
Old 09-05-2013, 02:33 AM
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Default One more thing...

Here's a guide to help us all avoid forgeries:

http://net54baseball.com/forum/content/basics.html

To this I would add...whenever you have doubts, ask questions! The members of our forum are incredibly knowledgeable and helpful.
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  #12  
Old 09-05-2013, 08:45 AM
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When a collector becomes experienced enough, including by handling cards in person and following legitimate online auctions and catalogs, most fakes and reprints can be identified in an online image. Most reprints are clearly different than the original, even in an online image. The experienced human eye and rational mind are the collector's most useful tools. You can identify many scammers just by the language used in the auction description ("Looks real to me, but am selling as an old reprint" and assorted other bs).

And, of course, dealing with reputable dealers, collectors and other sellers you trust, makes it all the easier. Two reason why it's good to deal with a reputable, experience seller, in particular when you're not experienced with the card issue: 1) They know what they are talking about, and are knowledgeable about what they are selling and 2) They're honorable about dealing with mistakes, accidentally selling fakes, etc. When you know you can get a refund if it turns out to be a fake, judging whether the item in the online image is real or not is no longer a life or death decision. As opposed to when the seller has 0 feedback, otherwise sells only computer parts and is in Bangkok.

Even as an expert in photographs, I much prefer buying expensive, higher end photos online from an experienced photo seller. This is because online images can only tell you so much, and you can never be 100% sure what you get (including clarity, attractiveness of image-- which is a big part of value and desirability) until you physically have it in hand. I definitely prefer dealing with a seller who I know is experienced and knowledgeable about what he or she is selling. Though, if you aren't an experienced photo seller and you're putting up cabinet cards or wirephotos, quality images always help! As I already said, for the experienced collector, most reprints and fakes can be identified in an online image Big, clear images do give the potential buyers a lot of information, whether you're selling a photo, card or autograph-- including that you're confident and honest enough to provide big, clear images. For the beginner seller, big clear images is always your best friend.

On occasion, I've had non-collectors/non-dealers send me very large and detailed images of a unique and very valuable item-- where you can zoom in and see the person's eyelashes in the picture and even the printing pattern, and where there are no online picture examples, or at least detailed images, for the emailer to have taken it from-- and where I've concluded 'There's no way this thing in the photo can't be real' and where only a person who physically had the original item in hand could make such a large and detailed scan. Often, the emailer had no idea whether or not the item was real or valuable, of even what it exactly is, which is why he or she emailed me with pictures.

There was a less than knowledgeable woman who had a unique (never before seen or heard of, no other examples online) oversized studio cabinet card of Christy Mathewson in minor league uniform. Pre-rookie! Part of the background mount was missing but with a perfect, crystal clear image of a young Matty. Just from the big, clear images she provided, it was clear to me it was real (and I told her so) and that only someone who physically had the item could provide such detailed scans. She ended up consigning it to one of the big auction houses and it sold for $7,000 or some such number (my memory clear on the photo, foggy on the final price). I've never seen the photo in person.

A number of years back, someone who said he was the descendant of a turn of the century traveling salesman and was just curious about what he had and was not interested in selling, emailed me huge, detailed scans of 1912 Boston Garter cards, both singles and at least one still attached partial panel. I concluded there was no way they weren't real. In fact, it was the first time I'd seen a picture of the cards in panel form. I told him how rare they were and that they were worth a lot of money, and he said he still wasn't interested in selling because they were family items.

Last edited by drcy; 09-05-2013 at 10:13 AM.
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  #13  
Old 09-05-2013, 09:47 AM
ALR-bishop ALR-bishop is offline
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Default Fakes and the Market

I do not know about pre war, but the Standard Catalog ( 2011), lists at least two groups of fakes...as fakes. At page 397 it lists "1950s-60s Topps Promotional Samples". These look like small versions of the Topps regular issues but the backs have only a stamp which reads "Promotional Sample, The Topps Co, Brooklyn NY". The cards are 1 1/4 by 1 3/4 and involve someone cutting the pictures out of the Topps Surf books and pastng them on some cardboard

Then on page 1308 it lists "'Pewter' Gallery Ingots, which it says are counterfeits of the Topps Gallery of Immortals and Gallery of Champions, which were replicas of Topps cards for different years ( 1984-91) done in aluminum, bronze or silver. Topps did do one pewter card for each year for one player, but counterfeits of others surfaced on ebay.

Once they were in the catalog, I had to have a couple of examples of each which I easily found on ebay. The Catalog says they have no collectible value, but in my mind, being in the catalog gave them some minor value to me, even though the purpose of the listing is to warn folks they are not genuine.

The 89 Fleer Ripken obscenity card has several variations ( white out, black boxes, black scribble, cut outs, ect.) but has just as many fakes of each, which have become collectibles in and of themselves of sorts

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 09-05-2013 at 09:47 AM.
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  #14  
Old 09-05-2013, 10:25 AM
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Roofman4 Roofman4 is offline
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I agree 'stache, I am not in the hobby to collect fakes either. I have seen the phrase "stewards of the hobby" in these board a few times. I don't want anything but the "real" thing in the hobby. I want to do the right thing all the time. If that means acquiring a fake/counterfeit card (cheaply) along the way to educate a young card collector, I will. My daughter and son are to the age of learning to and interested in collecting, it is nice to have both real and fakes to show them first hand. It is also nice to have them to show the stubborn novice collector (which I know a few) that the card they swear is real is actually worthless.

I thank all the different views on this issue, keep'm coming!

Last edited by Roofman4; 09-05-2013 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 09-05-2013, 11:26 AM
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As Don said, some coin collectors will keep examples of fakes for reference. I have a couple, and they're interesting. Fakes done in the period can be collectable.

It's the same with stamps. Some collectors and I believe all of the expertising organizations have some as a reference collection. Many of the most dangerous fakes can be traced to the original forger, and in a few instances a philatelic organization has exposed the forger but purchased their entire stock and forging equipment. In the case of the most skilled forgers at least one had the remaining forgeries put into books and sold. And some of the forgeries are worth more than the originals.

Sperati was among the most amazing technically. And some of his sell for a very good price.

http://www.glenstephens.com/sperati.html

And a page with a few more of the better ones in a specific specialty.
http://www.jlkstamps.com/fakes/fakecsa.htm


There are a few baseball card fakes I'd consider collectible. The rose rookie fakes are available and I'd like to get one someday. Even one of he ones marked as fake. Plus most any that were produced in a small time period in the early 90's. Those all required a bit of technical ability since they were printed on a press just like the actual cards. The newer generation of stuff printed on a printer from a scan aren't all that interesting. I do have one, and while it was a maybe in a blurry Ebay scan it's obviously fake seen up close.
I also have a fake E121 I got in 1978. Strange card, fake, trimmed, and a ton of work for the $2 it cost me.

Reprints are a different thing. I suppose I'd go for a few of them, I wouldn't mind a T201 set that I could fold and play with, reprints would be perfect. Maybe a reprint of one of the game sets, so I could play it. Other than that I enjoy a single low grade original more than a fistful of reprints.

Steve B
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Old 09-05-2013, 02:49 PM
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Default Fakes

I keep one of those counterfeit 1959 Fleer " Ted Signs" in my set next to the real thing for reference. I remember when they were making the rounds like the Rose card. I think Larry S told me he ran into what he felt was a pretty good bogus 1951 Topps Stankey Current all Star at a show not long back. I wish I could get a decent reprint of the Stankey, Roberts and Konstanty to put with my set of the 8 issued cards.
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  #17  
Old 09-06-2013, 05:41 PM
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This is a reason why i do like graded cards, not for the grade but to ( hopefully) prove its a real card. I have learned alot about the t205 set, and can easily spot a fake. But in my other travles im not so sure. So a sgc slab gives me faith that the card is real
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