Another PayPal Horror Story- Please Read

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Posted By: tbob

I have read the various PayPal horror stories on this board, never thinking it would happen to me. Ka-thunk. If this is indicative of how PayPal is now being run I am outta there. This is so weird Rod Serling couldn't have come up with this. Here's the email I sent those bozos today. I offer this because most of use PayPal and I want my fellow collectors to be aware of the dangers of using PayPal. $170 is $170, not a fortune but enough to make your blood boil.

Dear Sirs:
When I went to the PayPal page today, I noticed a temporary hold placed on a transaction in which I was the seller and a Robert Worth was the buyer. I contacted your offices by phone and was instructed to email you. I sold two books to a Robert Worth on June 24th and he paid by PayPal. The books were shipped on June 25th by USPS and according to the delivery confirmation, he received the books on June 28th at 12:17 p.m. at Hempstead, New York. The books were shipped to his address at 175 Fulton Avenue, Hempstead, New York 11550. The delivery confirmation number is 03030130000283739738. The person I spoke with on the phone said that Robert Worth had informed PayPal that the credit card used was either stolen or the transaction not authorized. I find this very hard to believe. In the first place, the buyer received the books 40 days ago and I never heard a word from him until I looked at my PayPal account today. Second, both my account and his account are verified. Third, he received the books at his address and yet he never returned them if he had not purchased them. Fourth, I left positive feedback for him on eBay and he never questioned this or wondered why he was being left feedback.
This whole thing is truly bizarre. I have had over 5000 positive feedbacks on eBay and a feedback rating of 100%. I trust you will deny this claim, restore the money to my PayPal account immediately so I can continue using PayPal in the future. If this money is not restored I will immediately discontinue using PayPal. This is a joke. I was also told I received an email about this a few days ago. I did not. This was the first time I had any notice. How can someone bid on an item on ebay, send payment, receive the items, have positive feedback left, and then 40 days later claim he didn't buy the items. He never offered to return the books nor did he ever question why he was being left positive feedback.
Please correct this immediately.
Thank you.
Bob Marquette (tbob on ebay)

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Bob--If you type the address into Google you will find that this is the address of the NY Committee for Occupational Safety and Health. This governmental agency's phone number is 516-485-4408. I suggest that you call and see if anyone knows a Robert Worth.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Even if the card was stolen, this also mens that the theif hacked his eBay account to bid on your auction and hacked his PayPal account to pay for the auction. Dunno, a lot of this doesn't add up. And once again PayPal is proving to be haven for scam artists on the end of the spectrum.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I no longer accept paypal as a seller.

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Posted By: petecld

AMEN. This crap is why I don't take paypal as a seller. It's too easy to get ripped off.

How can the charge be unauthorized? If the card was bad, fine, then the payment should have been taken from the guys bank account connected to his pPaypal account.

PLEASE tell me you can't have a Paypal account and use one name for bank account payments and for credit card payments use another name. Paypal can't that stupid can they? Can they?

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Posted By: Chris

Bob- The same thing happened to me about a year and a half ago. I called Paypal and there is some kind of questioning they can do. Some sort of appeal. Sorry but I do not remember the exact terminology. At any rate, Paypal questioned the buyer, many of the same questions you had and I ended up getting my money back.

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Posted By: tbob

Life seems to be a never-ending series of lessons. First I learned to never mix types of grading options within a single package, thanks to Dan McKee's trouble with PSA. Then I learned to ALWAYS use delivery confirmations thanks to some posts here about PayPal being weird on packages which weren't insured and how they still came back against the sellers through PayPal. Then I learned the ins and outs of spotting trimmed and altered cards, in holders and raw, thanks to a lot of guys here. Now I am learning another lesson thanks to some idiot scam artist and the bozos at PayPal who are ignoring my 5000+ transactions on ebay with a 100% feedback rating and siding (I guess) with some clown who was recently kicked off ebay and is no longer a registered user.
Some days it just doesn't pay to get up in the morning.
TBob

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Posted By: Ben

remember, never leave large or even moderate amounts of $ sitting in your paypal balance for too long. If you do, and some scammer decides to lie about "non-receipt", paypal has no qualms about draining your account, regardless of your ebay credentials. I should know - I was scammed out of $600 this way, just a few weeks ago.

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Posted By: tbob

Ben- actually I only had about $50 in there and the next thing I know it shows a negative balance (-120),
Bob

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Posted By: Jeff S

I still happily accept paypal because I'm convinced that I get stronger bids that way, but I've been dutifully emptying my account daily since my last round of auctions. It's actually kind of a fun thing to do: as I request each funds transfer, I think to myself, "Now try to scam me, you bastards." And of course, I'm sure someone will try. And I'll have to open another paypal account...so difficult, given how hard it is to get a credit card these days!

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Posted By: jay behrens

The thing that is totally amazing about the whole PayPal thing is that they offer buyer protection, yet, even if you don't buy it, they bend over backwards to give you back your money.

I would have thought that after eBay purchased PayPal that things whould have gotten better on this front since they are so pro-seller. I am sure there has to be more than a few pissed off big time powersellers.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: hankron

It's known as shoe's on the other foot

Before eBay, we all thought it so wonderful at how easy it is to get our money back on suspicious credit card transactions. Now, as PayPal sellers we learn that for money to be returned so easily, it has taken away from someone so easily.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I have a question -- if your paypal account balance is zero, can paypal reach into your registered bank account and withdraw money that way?

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Posted By: The Other One (Julie)

good; paypal will simply take the money out of your bank account, no questions asked of YOU. My paypal account is always empty, but I can pay instantly for any item I win--there's an immediate front to the seller, and then they take the money out of my bank account (automatically, but it takes a few days for my bank to register the missing money). On my leger, it looks like they got the money from me first, but in reality, they give it to the seller first and THEN get it from me.

I no longer accept paypal payments, because, simply, paypal takes a chunk for themselves, be it credit card or bank account, and I am left with less than i sold the item for. When someone I buy from says he takes paypal, I always ask: how much do you want me to send to cover what paypal takes from you? Invariably, they say, nothing extra. If they like being robbed little bits pof money here and there, adding up to large bits of money, it's O.K. by me, but unless the buyer insists on paypal, I always say "I'd much prefer any kind of check."

I've yet to be scammed. But then--I only have 80 feedback. There's a reason for that--I don't like ebay much, as a rule. Always (usually) a little disappointed...

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Posted By: tbob

Dear Bob Marquette,

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

In accordance with PayPal's Seller Protection Policy, the following
transaction(s) involving unauthorized funds have been reversed:

Transaction Date: Jun. 24, 2004 07:50:06 PDT
Transaction Amount: $170.45 USD
Buyer's Email: robqnznyc77@aol.com

-The transaction(s) did not qualify for Seller Protection because:

-The payment was not listed as "Seller Protection Policy Eligible" on
the Transaction Details page

Please note that this withholding is in accordance with our User
Agreement.

In the future, you can protect yourself against fraudulent transactions
by following the conditions of our Seller Protection Policy. For more
information on our Seller Protection Policy in our User Agreement click
https://www.paypal.com/sellerprotection or copy and paste entire link
into address bar.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.

Sincerely,
Trent
Protection Services Department
PayPal, an eBay Company

The clowns said that because the guy, GET THIS, reported someone stole his credit card, then hacked in to his ebay account to bid on my items, then hacked in to his paypal account to pay for them, then left an address where the books could be sent, that I am out my books and the $170 because I shipped to a frigging unconfirmed address. It was the address Paypal gave me! Better yet, I tried to close my PayPal account and can't because there is a negative balance of $100 in it (I had a positive $70 before this happened). So I guess PayPal can shove it and that $100 negative balance will be there until hell freezes over. They keep asking me to authorize a transfer of $100 from my credit card to make it zero so I can pay for stuff. They can stick it where the sun doesn't shine. If they take the money from my bank account I will sue the bastards from here to Sunday.
Me pissed? You bet. Does anyone still have the name and address of the law firm handling the class action law suit against PayPal, I have some info for them. As for the buyer Robert Worth, he better have had his credit card stolen because I am contacting the U.S. Attorney's office.

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Posted By: David Vargha

-The transaction(s) did not qualify for Seller Protection because:

-The payment was not listed as "Seller Protection Policy Eligible" on
the Transaction Details page

WTF??? I guess that I will only ship to "confirmed" addresses. My personal shipping address is "unconfirmed" because it doesn't match my credit card billing address. However, I don't want my wife receiving my cards at home.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: ppS

TBob,

Believe me when I say I feel for you because I've been burned by paypal also. The odd part is that regardless of how much people post (on this bull board) how terrible paypal sucks, people continue to use them until they get burned (like yourself). It's like they say, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" (or something like that).

I would follow up on what Jay Miller gave you regarding the place to where the books were shipped. If you find out that the person works at that location then you can probably begin to make a case against that person or inform that person that a co-worker is the person that is causing him all of his problems (and yours).

ppS (paypal SUCKS)

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Posted By: The Other One (Julie)

TLYHTDWPPTB. WTF? (WTF? VI-very inneresting. Better than "what the f***")

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Posted By: tbob

Just got an email from the original buyer who said that hold on don't have the feds investigate this, let's work things out. Does that sound like an innocent victim to you?
If I get paid, I'll post it but I am not holding my breath. Sorry for the ranting guys but I am not as young as most of you and if I don't let off steam you might see the late Tbob's card collection in Mastro.

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Posted By: steve k

As mentioned, this scammer is no longer a registered user. He was negged off of ebay for not paying some other sellers. Tbob has done transactions with over 3,500 people with only one neg. That is a remarkable record of integrity. How PayPal/Ebay would not bend over backwards to take care of a seller such as tbob, especially against a now obvious scammer, is mind boggling. PayPal right now is a bit out of control.

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Posted By: ppS

I think the last thing anyone wants to see is a Mastro catalog with the "TBOB" collection and "TBOB" memorial page. If and when it does happen at least it will be a catalog worth keeping.

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Posted By: Brian Koyama

Hope this helps. This was from the email from the Paypal lawsuit:

5. WHO REPRESENTS ME IN THIS CASE?
To represent the class, the Court has appointed Plaintiffs Roberta Toher and Jeffrey Resnick as Representative Plaintiffs and their counsel of record as Class Counsel. The Court has also appointed the following attorneys and law firms as Co-Lead Counsel:

A. J. De Bartolomeo
Girard Gibbs & De Bartolomeo LLP
601 California Street, Suite 1400
San Francisco, California 94108

Robert C. Finkel
Wolf Popper LLP
845 Third Avenue
New York, New York 10022

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Posted By: Johnny

I don't believe that class action suit info you gave will do him any good. The email said only up to Feb 2004 so it is past that date. As for working things out with the buyer I would tell him to shove it. All of a sudden with the feds involved he wants to be nice again? I would still take it to the feds so he can't do this to someone else. It's pretty obvious he's trying to pull a fast one.

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Posted By: BcD

that there is no competition for Paypal and you have to collaterize it with your credit card. E-bay owns it ans does not allow you to use your credit card apart from Paypal. This is just wrong.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Bob: I always tell my clients the same thing--get your money out of the scumbag then report him to the authorities as a crook anyway. Create a record on this deal so that when he does it again, the authorities will have a prior report on the computer.

Those unconfirmed addresses are a real issue--I never ship to one unless I know the buyer.

As far as structuring your accounts to avoid Paypal rips, set up a savings account at the bank where your checking account is located and sweep the money from checking to savings as soon as it hits. That way, there is never a balance available for Paypal to steal.

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Posted By: effe

You can set your account to block payments from buyers with unconfirmed addresses. Go to the profile tab on your account summary, then payment receiving preferences.
I had a guy who got naru'd soon after he had won one of my auctions and sent payment from an address that Paypal indicated was unconfirmed. After speaking with a Paypal rep, I refused the payment as I didn't need the hassle of constantly having to monitor my account for chargebacks

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Posted By: hankron

After listening to all, I've changed my PayPal practices. Confirmed addresses only (unless I know the person) and tracking on items over a certain value.

My one issue is that I sell a fair amount internationally-- and PayPal is a tremendous leap foreward for them from sending tucked dollar bills or international money orders. But I've had nothing but good experiences with buying and selling internationally (except when a woman in Wales found out what was the UK import charge and got mad at me. I explained to her that I have little control over British laws. Heck, I have little control over what is served for dinner at home each night).

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Posted By: tbob

I received an email today that PayPal is considering a one time only credit refund to restore my account because I have been such a good and loyal customer. D'oh! They are only considering it and will let me know in 2 days. Heck I guess the fact I am an attorney had nothing to do with it and the fact I was scammed had little to do with it and the fact I barraged them with emails producing evidence of the buyer's misconduct and their misfeasance had nothing to do with it. The 549 PayPal rating and the 100% ebay rating with over 5000 positive feedbacks (over 3000 from separate individuals) played no part. No, it was because I am just such a swell guy that they will CONSIDER giving me MY money back. Sheesh. Again, I am not holding my breath.

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Posted By: steve k

While it is certainly good that PayPal is "considering" refunding your money, the fact that they are mentioning a "one time only" credit is still disturbing. I know you plan on crossing that bridge if coming to it, and you're probably not going to ship to "unconfirmed addresses" anymore, but this means that if a similar incident with a scammer happens to you next week for some other reason then they are not going to at all consider any refund. PayPal still doesn't quite get it. And I know you may not even use PayPal anymore anyway. In any event, good luck with this and thanks for sharing the story as I have already made changes in my PayPal account to hopefully avoid similar problems.

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Posted By: The other One (Julie)

is to close it.

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Posted By: andy becker

...as i closed my paypal account the day they started charging sellers for transfers (long, long ago), but i was also paranoid enough to close the attached bank account too. i must agree with pps!!!

and julie, i like WTF too!

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Posted By: Joe P.

With all the aggravations that I'm reading about, who in their right mind needs it?
Run like a thief, GTF out.

Tbob BTW, how old are you?
I'm 73.

The Late Joe P. AKA (tobacco-r-us) why am I wheezing?

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Posted By: jay behrens

The big reason most sellers use it is becuase their merchant is rate is far cheaper than anything you can get from your local bank. Add to that a 1.5% rebate when you use their debit card and you are looking at about 1% vig on your sale via credit cards. I know my bank can't touch that.

The only thing you can really do as a seller is go thru your local bank and pay a larger vig, or do everything possible to protect yourself from the few scumbags out there and keep taking PayPal.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Joe P.

A point well taken.
Everything that I purchase on eBay, personal check is my form of payment.
As a matter of fact, whenever I see something that I might be interested in, and I see that the seller has not listed personal checks as a form of payment, I will e-mail the seller and ask the seller, he or she to please check my feedback's and give it consideration.
99 out of 100 will give the OK.

Checks take just a skoshi bit longer, no big deal.
Does that put them on the undesirable list?

As a matter of another fact, I had a seller mail out my item before my check was in the mail, and let me tell you, I'm not slow on the draw - he read my feedback's.

My question now is:
Do you still feel that you rather put up with the unknown potential aggravations of Paypal?
Obviously, there are alternatives.

Which do you prefer?

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Posted By: jay behrens

PayPal is almost like eBay, they have no real competition. There are a few other servives that let you pay online. None of them offer the combination of low rates and rebate you get with their debit card.

PayPal seems to have set up a decent model for their type of business. Now if someone started up a similar business and actually provided some legit customer service and common sense in resolving problems, then they could blow PayPal out of the water.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

The only reason I keep my Paypal account is so that I can use my Credit card for some purchases. I only use Paypal for selling if the item is over $100, because I know there are more people out there like me that need it for credit cards.
Otherwise I had my bad experience with Paypal it was only $30 but broought the major red flag and know I have fewer fees to pay.

Lee

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Posted By: tbob

I'm 54 years young although lately it has felt more like 84.

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Posted By: Joe P.

I'm looking forward towards 84, so I can say that 73 was a piece of cake.

Now about these torturers of the truth, and critters over at eBay and Paypal?

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Posted By: tbob

Well they told me Sunday they were giving me my money back but to give them two busines days. It's now Tuesday night and still no money...

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Posted By: Joe P.

tBob, if they don't deliver by next Sunday, I urge you not to press them.
Otherwise they might send over two of their associates to rap on your door.
Phearless Phearface and Aloyious Brundage.
Torpedoes of a different level.
Former ex CEO's from the corporate world.
They're trying to distance themselves from the soprano image.
However, they have held on to their Credo:
Paypal, or else. .... which kneecap you're least fond of.

Again I say, please don't press them.

Joe

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Posted By: tbob

Thank you for contacting PayPal. Please accept my apology for any difficulties you have encountered while using our services. I also apologize if you have not received the level of service you expected
from PayPal. We appreciate you notifying us of your concerns.

Because we value you as a member and want your experience with PayPal to be positive, I have submitted a request for a credit to your account
in the amount of $170.00 as a one time courtesy. Please understand that this is a one-time exception, and we will be unable to make any further
exceptions to this policy going forward. Please allow two business days for this request to be reviewed and credited to your PayPal account.

We hope that you will continue to use PayPal for your online payment needs and allow us to demonstrate why we are the leading payment service in the industry.

For future reference, please be aware that should we receive notification that a transaction was fraudulent, we are obligated to place a temporary hold on all involved funds until the source and
validity of the funds can be verified. If, in fact, the funds are found to be fraudulent, we are required to return the funds to the legitimate
owner of the funds.

Because the merchandise you sent was to an unconfirmed address, you were not covered by our Seller Protection Policy. Therefore, I
encourage you to review the requirements of our SellerProtection Policy to ensure that your future transactions are covered.

Again Mr. ________, please accept my apology

The money appeared in my account today. I was out about $10 sending money orders to sellers while my account was frozen, not to mention a ruined weekend and a couple of splitting headaches and much venting to friends and family. I learned a lesson today though, don't EVER send anything to an unconfirmed address even if the buyer begs. Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it...
Thanks for all the support from the 54 Forum gang for being supportive and for letting me whine. You guys are great...

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Posted By: Joe P.

You got us this time, but if this should happen in other Ways - Shapes or Forms:

You are SOL Baby!

Leaves one with a warm feeling doesn't it?
It inbeds the fact that you have to really read the small print.

tBob, your thread is worth the price of admission, and I'm not even a seller.
Thank you.
Joe

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Posted By: The Other One (Julie)

and at first, refused to ship to "uncomfirmed addresses." Some poeple have very good reasons for having unconfirmed addresses. But it was perfectly clear to me that payapl would not cover any payment made to me, or from me, to or from an unconfirmed address. Instead of deciding to conform to the letter of paypal's law, I simply decided to stop using paypal. I had no personal bad experiences with paypal, but I sure read about plenty. UPS, FedEx and the USPS ALSO respect "delivery confirmation."

If I ever need a good lawyer. I guess I know where to look.

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Posted By: david

not paypal related but ebay related. i recently submitted two autographs to psa/dna's quick opinion- mantle and williams. both came back probably not authentic. both not pulled from ebay and allowed to sell to an unsuspecting buyer so ebay can collect the fees. yet another example of ebay/paypal of fraud and misconduct. the real question is that since ebay was made aware of the fraud does this open them up to a lawsuit from which the can not wiggle their way out of

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Posted By: Jeff S

...I'm guessing that the boilerplate PSA/DNA uses for their quick opinion service pretty much keeps eBay safe. They're very careful to say something "is likely not authentic" or "is likely not to be authenticated by PSA/DNA," rather than actually saying that something is a fake. In fact, I remember a comment recently on the board that someone got a "likely not authentic" but was encouraged to send it in -- it came back authenticated.

There are plenty of good reasons for this -- after all, a thorough authentication process often must involve seeing the item in person.

On the other hand, some stuff is blatantly forged, and there ought to be an additional PSA/DNA answer, forwardable to eBay, along the lines of "Who does this guy think he's kidding! Mantle didn't spell his name Mickee!"