Post national

[Snapolit1]

So what's the drill after the National wraps up. Are there a ton of new listings on Ebay of unsold cards and flips? Does BST here fill up with new stuff? Or does the relative summer quiet roll on . . . . .

[hshrimps]

Did FBI show up this yr catching bad sellers this yr?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by hshrimps

Did FBI show up this yr catching bad sellers this yr?

Didn't hear anything about anything like that.

[Bill Rayburn]

Originally Posted by hshrimps

Did FBI show up this yr catching bad sellers this yr?

Don't know if they arrested anyone but they were there and one of the featured speakers ant the Net54 dinner. Fascinating, very interesting, thank you Leon and the sponsors.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

So what's the drill after the National wraps up. Are there a ton of new listings on Ebay of unsold cards and flips? Does BST here fill up with new stuff? Or does the relative summer quiet roll on . . . . .

Nothing changes. Except you dont have to hear from dealers 'ill sell it at the National'

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Nothing changes. Except you dont have to hear from dealers 'ill sell it at the National'

Or not. I have heard from quite a few people that, as usual, prices were insanely high. A number of people have reported that they went ready to buy and came home with nothing or close to it.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Or not. I have heard from quite a few people that, as usual, prices were insanely high. A number of people have reported that they went ready to buy and came home with nothing or close to it.

which is pretty much the status quo for nationals from my experience the last 5 or so years.

If you bought cards at the national...there's a really high likelihood you overpaid for them!

[rjackson44]

agree with pete

[bobbyw8469]

Agree with Octavio

[Section103]

Just based on my own limited observations, I believe that I see more things come to market -before- major events like the National and REA. It seems folks are trying to position themselves for movement and want to shake off whatever may not fit in their portfolio for whatever reason.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

If you bought cards at the national...there's a really high likelihood you overpaid for them!

Well, that depends on what you're interested in. Yes, I saw a lot of overpriced cards, especially high-end slabbed cards, but I was able to get some T cards, raw or low grade, for pretty decent prices. I got a bunch of 1960s and early 70s Topps commons and minor stars for reasonable prices -- more or less book value minus the discount that all the dealers gave when you bought a bunch.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Well, that depends on what you're interested in. Yes, I saw a lot of overpriced cards, especially high-end slabbed cards, but I was able to get some T cards, raw or low grade, for pretty decent prices. I got a bunch of 1960s and early 70s Topps commons and minor stars for reasonable prices -- more or less book value minus the discount that all the dealers gave when you bought a bunch.

i should have clarified...if you bought any "high end" or "rare" pre-Korean war baseball cards...you likely overpaid!

[glynparson]

Do you ever say anything positive? Are you this miserable or do your posts not reflect your true personality?

[Gradedcardman]

Not a bad show at all. Not as much raw as I have seen in the past. The graded cards were there with some overpriced some priced at VCP and some bargains. I spent a good amount of what I brought with me. Half for raw and half for graded. Great crowd with a lot of younger people.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i should have clarified...if you bought any "high end" or "rare" pre-Korean war baseball cards...you likely overpaid!

Pre Korean war, post WW2?

[KMayUSA6060]

I don't understand why so many people bitch about prices at National.

#1 The reason there is a National is because dealers pay for booths to display their cards. They have to cover that cost somehow.

#2 If your target is high-end/in-demand cards, and you've been to National previously and have seen the high prices on such cards, why are you expecting anything different this year, or the next time you go?

#3 High-end, in-demand cards command an in-person premium because you can physically see, touch, and examine the card in person before purchasing. You can also take it home with you that day if you so choose to purchase it. They're also priced the way they are because someone will probably purchase it either at that price or negotiate to slightly lower.

#4 Enjoy what National is - a gathering of fellow collectors enjoying a hobby we all love.


Admittedly, I did not go this year, but I will be going next year when it's in my backyard in Cleveland. I did go last year, and was disappointed in the selection provided by dealers, but I still enjoy walking around and seeing all of the cool things and talking with the dealers. That's what it is supposed to be about.

[skelly]

In response to the above post, I agree that at the national, the dealers start in the hole with expenses, therefore higher prices on premium cards can be expected. My issue is that even at smaller shows where tables are $40-$60 for the day, stuff seems to be overpriced. Not with everyone, but I certainly don't find many dealers "adjusting" prices for smaller shows.
Now to flip it on the customer, I set up at a show a couple years back with some cards I was determined not to take home. It was pretty funny putting it back on the customer when they really have no intention of buying. Two examples- 1) Customer asks about my 1957 topps football set. I tell him I need $550 for the entire set. Now keep in mind most dealers would be asking $550 for just the Bart Starr card which was vg-vg+ Soft corners, but no creasing, 80/20 centering left to right. This put the guy in a panic, as he really didn't want to even give $50 for the set. I ended up selling it to Henry of Lee's Galleries for the $550 I wanted. Example number two was I had a pretty nice Bradshaw Rookie. Guy asks how much I want. I tell him to pay whatever he wants, he says 30 dollars, I say fine. He tells me he doesn't have 30 dollars, but to his credit he borrows from someone and gets the deal done. In closing one thing I can't understand for the life of me is why the national would turn away anyone who wanted to vend due to lack of space. This hobby needs all the new faces it can get from a dealer standpoint and they say no, despite having space? Hey Chicago, that's a thumbs down in my book.

[Snapolit1]

I thoroughly enjoyed the afternoon I was there. Is great to see the variety of what people collect and the buzz in the room. But I didn't buy a single card because what I was wanted was terribly overpriced. Realize folks are paying to be there but a lot of sellers seize upon the fact that unsophisticated consumers
Will be wowed by vintage cards and be willing to seriously overpay.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

I don't understand why so many people bitch about prices at National.

#1 The reason there is a National is because dealers pay for booths to display their cards. They have to cover that cost somehow.

#2 If your target is high-end/in-demand cards, and you've been to National previously and have seen the high prices on such cards, why are you expecting anything different this year, or the next time you go?

#3 High-end, in-demand cards command an in-person premium because you can physically see, touch, and examine the card in person before purchasing. You can also take it home with you that day if you so choose to purchase it. They're also priced the way they are because someone will probably purchase it either at that price or negotiate to slightly lower.

#4 Enjoy what National is - a gathering of fellow collectors enjoying a hobby we all love.


Admittedly, I did not go this year, but I will be going next year when it's in my backyard in Cleveland. I did go last year, and was disappointed in the selection provided by dealers, but I still enjoy walking around and seeing all of the cool things and talking with the dealers. That's what it is supposed to be about.

I agree...how many times on a card for sell online do you get questions about a dot on the card or what looks like a scratch. If a card stands up to scrutiny in person then its worth more and theres a convenience of buying it immediately. Also buying 'off the books' is worth something when you go to resell the card as every seller likes to say 'i have more into the card than you offered' which wouldnt work if you bought the card a week ago in an online auction..

[the-illini]

Kyle, this is very well said.

I have been a collector for 30 years, but the past two years I have set up as a dealer.

First of all, it is very expensive as you noted to set up at a national. Between the table cost and hotel rooms, the cost is approximately 2500 dollars to even have a spot. Also, 95% of dealers have a full-time job so they are taking the better part of a week off of work to set up. That is a choice we all make but there is an opportunity cost associated with being there as well - it ain't sipping cocktails on a beach.

Secondly, a lot of collectors coming to tables have very unrealistic expectations about what a card should sell for. For example, I had a card priced at $430 at my table. I had $350 in the card. A gentleman asked me what my best price on the card was - I told him $395. He looks at the card for another 5 minutes and asks me "Could you do $200?" People need to be fair on the buying side as well.

On the other side of that coin, a lot of dealers are just bad at their job, and it turns off customers. Having been a customer at Nationals for years, I know how irritating it is to go to a table and feel like you are bothering the dealer by even being there. My main goal as a dealer is to avoid that feeling for a customer. I ALWAYS try to welcome people, engage them, and help them with any questions they have about my items. If they leave without buying, I always still thank them for their time.

Also, it doesn't hurt to explain why your prices are high. For example, I had a fellow board member buy two cards from me on Friday. He quoted me a (very fair) initial offer for the cards. I countered and explained why I was asking so much on one of the cards (it was from my collection and the price was firm if I was going to sell it). He and I had a nice discussion about the card and he ended up buying it from me. Communication can go a long way.

Finally though, dealers are at the show to make some money. The dealers who are rude and price items at 3-4x market make it unpleasant for all of us, but I think people also need to understand the investment they make in committing to set up at a show. I know the last two years have been very eye-opening for me in that regard.

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

I don't understand why so many people bitch about prices at National.

#1 The reason there is a National is because dealers pay for booths to display their cards. They have to cover that cost somehow.

#2 If your target is high-end/in-demand cards, and you've been to National previously and have seen the high prices on such cards, why are you expecting anything different this year, or the next time you go?

#3 High-end, in-demand cards command an in-person premium because you can physically see, touch, and examine the card in person before purchasing. You can also take it home with you that day if you so choose to purchase it. They're also priced the way they are because someone will probably purchase it either at that price or negotiate to slightly lower.

#4 Enjoy what National is - a gathering of fellow collectors enjoying a hobby we all love.


Admittedly, I did not go this year, but I will be going next year when it's in my backyard in Cleveland. I did go last year, and was disappointed in the selection provided by dealers, but I still enjoy walking around and seeing all of the cool things and talking with the dealers. That's what it is supposed to be about.

[Snapolit1]

Many valid points. Unrealistic buyers. Unrealistic sellers. Lots of good honest people on both sides. Like anywhere else. And I agree that holding the card in your hand is a tremendous advantage of buying in person.

I had no problem at all with unfriendly or disinterested dealers. Most conversations were simply let me know if you are looking for anything specific, which is all that needs to be said. Some people didn't have their cards all priced which was annoying. But overall I thought the vibe in the room was very friendly.

[rainier2004]

I think Chris and Kyle summed things up pretty well from both sides.

There's a ton of overpriced stuff, just like everywhere else you go in life. Ive been collecting for 32 years, Id like to think I not a dumbass who overpays so to paint the entire National with one broad stroke seems a little is a little ignorant as I only buy pww1 cards. I found 5 cards that were added to my collection including one that involved a dealer and another collector that worked out well for all of us.

I have also become old enough to realize if my only goal of attending a National is to get cards then I am missing a big opportunity to enjoy time with friends, friends I only see once a year. There is a value to giving titty twisters and stealing someones toothpaste from their room. Cardboard is great, but friends are better.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by the-illini

Kyle, this is very well said.

I have been a collector for 30 years, but the past two years I have set up as a dealer.

First of all, it is very expensive as you noted to set up at a national. Between the table cost and hotel rooms, the cost is approximately 2500 dollars to even have a spot. Also, 95% of dealers have a full-time job so they are taking the better part of a week off of work to set up. That is a choice we all make but there is an opportunity cost associated with being there as well - it ain't sipping cocktails on a beach.

Secondly, a lot of collectors coming to tables have very unrealistic expectations about what a card should sell for. For example, I had a card priced at $430 at my table. I had $350 in the card. A gentleman asked me what my best price on the card was - I told him $395. He looks at the card for another 5 minutes and asks me "Could you do $200?" People need to be fair on the buying side as well.

On the other side of that coin, a lot of dealers are just bad at their job, and it turns off customers. Having been a customer at Nationals for years, I know how irritating it is to go to a table and feel like you are bothering the dealer by even being there. My main goal as a dealer is to avoid that feeling for a customer. I ALWAYS try to welcome people, engage them, and help them with any questions they have about my items. If they leave without buying, I always still thank them for their time.

Also, it doesn't hurt to explain why your prices are high. For example, I had a fellow board member buy two cards from me on Friday. He quoted me a (very fair) initial offer for the cards. I countered and explained why I was asking so much on one of the cards (it was from my collection and the price was firm if I was going to sell it). He and I had a nice discussion about the card and he ended up buying it from me. Communication can go a long way.

Finally though, dealers are at the show to make some money. The dealers who are rude and price items at 3-4x market make it unpleasant for all of us, but I think people also need to understand the investment they make in committing to set up at a show. I know the last two years have been very eye-opening for me in that regard.

There was a thread about the lack of good card stores and i think the same issues apply with the National. If people want to support the hobby, they will pay for dealer cards on a price that may be a bit more than on ebay. Except you have the experience of actually seeing the card and also the fun of seeing fellow hobbyists and all the other good things that come with people talking about sports and cards. A lot of the same people that whine about the lack of card stores or good shows are the same people that offer 200 on a 300 dollar card. Dealers and people spending money to organize shows didnt do that so buyers could buy cards there to flip on ebay for an easy profit.


If its only about the bottom dollar and not the fun of the hobby everything will eventually revert to the online forum. There is just too much logistical costs for everything else.

[Snapolit1]

The one thing that has probably changed dramatically from years ago is most of us can immediately call up VCP on our phones to see what a card w/ same grade has sold for in the recent past. When the last 4 sales are for $1000, its not smart to be trying to sell the card for $3750. But if someone's card is that overpriced they will be dragging it around for a while and will probably wise up eventually.

[buymycards]

You also have to factor the "experience" of the National. For instance, I can play a round of golf at my local golf course for twenty bucks, but every once in a while a like to go to a different course, a nicer course, in a different city. That round of golf may cost me $100, but it is worth it to me because of the "experience" of a better course.

It is the same thing with the National. When I go to the National, I know there will be a lot of nice cards, dealers from across the country, and if I have to pay more for a card, then that it OK. I don't have to buy a card, but I usually do make some purchases. I could have gone to a local show, but the chances of finding a card that fits my collection is almost zero.

Between hotel, transportation, food, etc., my trip cost me $725, not counting the cost of the cards that I purchased. I could have stayed home and found some cards on eBay and added $725 worth of cards to my collection, but eBay is available every day, and the National only occurs once per year.

Sometimes you have to quit looking at your cards as a business or an investment, and just have some fun. If you find a card that fits your collection and you really want it, who cares if the card is priced over "book value" or SMR or VCP? Buy it and enjoy it, and if you decide to sell it in a few years, you may lose a few bucks, but that is OK.

Rick

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are of course expenses in setting up at a card show, but at the same time a dealer doesn't have to give x percent to ebay/paypal when making an in person sale. So I am not seeing this as a justification for charging exorbitant prices. And in any event, reducing prices might lead to higher profits if you sell more cards.

To me it's an insane situation when guys like Steve and Jesse who are willing to pay strong prices for cards come home literally with nothing because the prices were so ridiculous.

[the-illini]

I guess don't go to the National with the intent of buying cards then?

I see plenty of exorbitant prices on Ebay every day as well.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are of course expenses in setting up at a card show, but at the same time a dealer doesn't have to give x percent to ebay/paypal when making an in person sale. So I am not seeing this as a justification for charging exorbitant prices. And in any event, reducing prices might lead to higher profits if you sell more cards.

To me it's an insane situation when guys like Steve and Jesse who are willing to pay strong prices for cards come home literally with nothing because the prices were so ridiculous.

[packs]

I still don't understand the philosophy that if you buy a card in person at a show you should expect to pay more than market value. Why, exactly? Because a guy shelled out money to rent a table? He didn't do it for his health. Let him sell his cards to pay for his table. Or, as is usually the custom, out price any buyers and walk away without selling anything.

I feel the same way when I try to negotiate a deal anywhere. Some guy will always say, "well, i have X into it". I don't care what you have into it. What you paid for something isn't what dictates a sale price.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I still don't understand the philosophy that if you buy a card in person at a show you should expect to pay more than market value. Why, exactly? Because a guy shelled out money to rent a table? He didn't do it for his health. Let him sell his cards to pay for his table. Or, as is usually the custom, out price any buyers and walk away without selling anything.

I feel the same way when I try to negotiate a deal anywhere. Some guy will always say, "well, i have X into it". I don't care what you have into it. What you paid for something isn't what dictates a sale price.

Agreed. It sounds nice but it's illogical.

[the-illini]

So you want dealers to pay market, set up at a card show, and sell at market?

That's a good business model.

Originally Posted by packs

I still don't understand the philosophy that if you buy a card in person at a show you should expect to pay more than market value. Why, exactly? Because a guy shelled out money to rent a table? He didn't do it for his health. Let him sell his cards to pay for his table. Or, as is usually the custom, out price any buyers and walk away without selling anything.

I feel the same way when I try to negotiate a deal anywhere. Some guy will always say, "well, i have X into it". I don't care what you have into it. What you paid for something isn't what dictates a sale price.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by the-illini

I guess don't go to the National with the intent of buying cards then?

I see plenty of exorbitant prices on Ebay every day as well.

Some people will be pessimistic no matter what. If I offered everyone on the board 1 million dollars for free, some would be pissed they didn't get more. It's human nature to gripe, I guess. Just take my wife........please . (that was my worst Rodney Dangerfield, but there is more)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the-illini

So you want dealers to pay market, set up at a card show, and sell at market?

That's a good business model.

A better one than not selling.

[the-illini]

Not really. I would rather still own the card than sell at or below cost.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A better one than not selling.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the-illini

Not really. I would rather still own the card than sell at or below cost.

That's fine and your choice, but at the same time I think it's irrational to expect me to pay you more than a card is worth because it cost you money to set up.

[the-illini]

And I think its irrational for you to to be mad I won't sell at Beckett/VCP or whatever because I want something back from my time and money outlay.

Agree to disagree - no hard feelings.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's fine and your choice, but at the same time I think it's irrational to expect me to pay you more than a card is worth because it cost you money to set up.

[ullmandds]

The dynamics and psychology of buying and selling sure have changed!

I should pay more because I can hold a card in my hand prior to purchase?

I should pay more for a card because said seller has fees(which I'd assume can be written off as business expenses)associated with doing said business?

I as an attendant of any national usually have fees associated with my being there as well...transportation...hotel...etc.

The national is fun...its social...and it's cool to see buttloads of impressive cards and memorabilia...BUT...I stand my my overly negative comment that many cards are dramatically overpriced.

[packs]

If a dealer is paying market price for his cards then that dealer isn't a very good dealer and he still has no business at a show.

[conor912]

Why do people continue to equate VCP to "what something is worth". VCP is an average. "What something is worth" is a fluid, often irrational (for both buyers AND sellers) figure taking into account many more factors than an average. Time, place, mood, attitude, all the way down to a headache or indigestion may sway what I think something is worth at any given moment.

[Snapolit1]

Many of us buy and sell. What many sellers lose sight of is that you "win" (stupid word) a card at an auction or at a show because you were willing to pay more for it than anyone else who looked it it. I have paid $5000 for a photograph of Babe Ruth because I really wanted it. But that means no one else was willing to pay that. What are the odds I can quickly find someone to pay $7500 for that? Probably quite small. The reason I got it in the first place was I was willing to pay more than the next guy. My sunk costs don't mean much.
People do this with RMY every month. One guy in particular. Buys photos for $700 and then lists them for 4 or 5X. Is he ever going to sell them? Well, maybe if he finds an uninformed consumer he will.

[rainier2004]

There is some massive stereotyping in this thread, if every card was priced higher than what others thinks its worth then there would be no sales and I saw tons of cash going back and forth.

Quality sells and the National creates a perfect venue for that when you can see the quality in your hand. I saw Chris's table, didn't buy a thing from him but I'm willing to bet the only things priced high were those items that deserved to be. Just b/c you didn't buy anything doesn't make "everything" overpriced...he just didn't have any PCs I wanted.

Yes there was tons of overpriced cards there, but there were also quality buys as well. Everyone needs to ease up on this, people can sell their stuff for whatever they want and you don't have to buy it. Capitalism will take care of a lot of things.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

There is some massive stereotyping in this thread, if every card was priced higher than what others thinks its worth then there would be no sales and I saw tons of cash going back and forth.

Quality sells and the National creates a perfect venue for that when you can see the quality in your hand. I saw Chris's table, didn't buy a thing from him but I'm willing to bet the only things priced high were those items that deserved to be. Just b/c you didn't buy anything doesn't make "everything" overpriced...he just didn't have any PCs I wanted.

Yes there was tons of overpriced cards there, but there were also quality buys as well. Everyone needs to ease up on this, people can sell their stuff for whatever they want and you don't have to buy it. Capitalism will take care of a lot of things.

Agreed. I find it interesting that when an auction brings new high prices on cards people consider it a "new market value", but when the same card exchanges hands for a set price at a new high the "buyer paid too much". Both are legitimate markets and both have to be accounted for when deciding market value.

[bobbyw8469]

I have never been to a National. Call me "cheap" or whatever, but as long as I can get good cards on the internet, for a cheaper price, I can never envision myself going to a National. And I am OK with that.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Leon

Some people will be pessimistic no matter what. If I offered everyone on the board 1 million dollars for free, some would be pissed they didn't get more. It's human nature to gripe, I guess. Just take my wife........please . (that was my worst Rodney Dangerfield, but there is more)

I heard more Henny Youngman......

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I have never been to a National. Call me "cheap" or whatever, but as long as I can get good cards on the internet, for a cheaper price, I can never envision myself going to a National. And I am OK with that.

All I can say is you are missing out then, I wouldn't trade the last week at the National for any card.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the-illini

So you want dealers to pay market, set up at a card show, and sell at market?

That's a good business model.

If dealers are paying market, then they aren't dealers they are collectors. Retail stores don't buy their stock from Wal-Mart and expect to sell it in their store. If they want to be a dealer, they need to develop wholesale markets. Otherwise, be prepared to operate on really thin margins.

If they sell on EBay, they are losing 13%. With an AH, around 20%. How much more do they need to cover expenses? I go to the National expecting to pay more, but not 20 or 30 percent. Supporting dealers only goes so far. I am buying higher dollar cards, so I am not interested in covering all their expenses to buy a card or two from them. If we are talking four figures, I will just wait for it to come up for auction.

[rainier2004]

We are also not comparing apples to apples here, all psa 3s are not created equal for instance.

At the show you get to see the color, its not enhanced by scans. You can look for imperfections all you want while talking to dealer, who like Chris, is really a collector in disguise. You may not buy the card but that dealer may lead you to a card, or maybe not.

People "overpay" at auction all the time, I believe a member just got hammered for this not long ago. At the show you can be the judge of everything and you get to know who stands with integrity. I would much rather do a deal with someone I trust any day and I don't overpay. Quality sells, integrity seals the deal and this is on display best at the National.

[wdwfan]

It's ashamed people aren't willing to pay say 10-15% more to be able to see and feel the card as well as walk out with it in hand and not have to wait a week for it to be shipped.

I'm with most everyone here that believes cards in person should be a little higher than eBay/market. A little like 10-15%, not double or triple.

If you want to sit at home by yourself on your computer, then buy at market/ebay price and don't go to National. But if you are willing to pay a tad bit more, visit with friends you only see once a year, see stuff in auction houses, other dealers that you'll never see on eBay, etc. then go to the National.

[OsFan]

No one way to collect is better than another. But I am genuinely surprised so many go to the national with what sounds like very limited want lists.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by wdwfan

It's ashamed people aren't willing to pay say 10-15% more to be able to see and feel the card as well as walk out with it in hand and not have to wait a week for it to be shipped.

I'm with most everyone here that believes cards in person should be a little higher than eBay/market. A little like 10-15%, not double or triple.

If you want to sit at home by yourself on your computer, then buy at market/ebay price and don't go to National. But if you are willing to pay a tad bit more, visit with friends you only see once a year, see stuff in auction houses, other dealers that you'll never see on eBay, etc. then go to the National.

10-20% is fine. However, if I see a dude selling a 1956 Mantle PSA 5 for $2,500, I will just laugh, shake my head, and reminisce about the time I sold my 6.5 for $800.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

10-20% is fine. However, if I see a dude selling a 1956 Mantle PSA 5 for $2,500, I will just laugh, shake my head, and reminisce about the time I sold my 6.5 for $800.

I wasn't there, but received many communications from guys who were telling me about prices on cards I want, and most were both ridiculous and apparently non-negotiable.