What is the origin of Frank Thomas NNOF?

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

I'm not sure that rules out other locations. If the majority of the cards were printed in Duryea, there's no reason for Liss to qualify his statement by mentioning other places. He's making a general point and brevity is usually the go-to weapon of choice.

Also, I'd be surprised if Liss was with Topps in 1990.

Arthur

[Rich Klein]

LISS *Was* the PR Person for Topps in 1990. The Liss family was not replaced till late 1991 early 1992 by Bob Ibach and Timm Boyle.

Regards
Rich

[West]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

I'm not sure that rules out other locations. If the majority of the cards were printed in Duryea, there's no reason for Liss to qualify his statement by mentioning other places. He's making a general point and brevity is usually the go-to weapon of choice.

Also, I'd be surprised if Liss was with Topps in 1990.

Arthur

It would have been very unwise for Liss, as PR man for a large publicly traded company, to lie to the media when commenting on a lawsuit. The statement does not 100% prove the cards were printed in Duryea, but it's as close as you can get to an acknowledgement of that fact.

The Topps Archives blog has done the best detective work figuring out who printed what for Topps.

link-
http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/20...ters-link.html

According to the blog, Topps had been doing some of its own printing in house starting in 1965. There were several outside printers that Topps used in the vintage era - Lord Baltimore Press in Baltimore, Zabel Bros in Philadelphia, Stecher-Traung in NY and CT, Chromographic Press and A. Hoen & Co in Baltimore.

Chromographic went under in 1971. A Hoen in '81, Zabel in '82 and Stecher-Traung in '85. Lord Baltimore was done with Topps by 1960.

I have one source that says Topps began outsourcing printing in 1994 and their first annual report confirms that several years later. That gives us a window from the early '80s to 1994 where Topps could have printed the entirety of its product at the facility in Duryea.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

I'm not saying that Liss was lying. I'm saying that he wasn't being directly asked how many locations did they print the 1990 issue in. He was being asked about the Bush card so inconsequential information to the point he was addressing wouldn't have been brought up by him. His point was simply that the Bush card was printed in a separate place from the 1990 issue.

For the sake of argument, let's say 85% of 1990 Topps was printed in Duryea and the remaining 15% wasn't printed in New York. There's no reason, and no reasonable expectation, for Liss to mention where that other 15% was printed in the context of the Bush conversation.

Not to mention that he already proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement.

All I'm saying is that his comment serves to purpose in furthering or disspelling any theory.

Arthur

[West]

Posting scans here so folks can discuss.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-TOPPS-...D/372496340533










Looks like a legit card to me.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by West

Posting scans here so folks can discuss.
Looks like a legit card to me.

Looks real to me too; maybe it got a heavy blue color pass or something so the name is partially showing up. Kind of like the 1982 Blackless"ing" cards that had some black ink on the card. If it's a real 1990 Topps card, I have no problem calling it a NNOF error. Maybe BGS or SGC will holder it.

[swarmee]

*double post; hate this computer*

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

West, is that your card? I would think it would need to be examined in-hand to really form a judgment. Tough to see the surface of a card in a scan or photo. The accuracy of the area is pretty good though.

Arthur

[West]

Not my card. I have a partial blackless Thomas, the John Hart blackless error and the Jim Acker error so I am still looking for the Thomas and the 10 other errors.

Very true that the card would have to be examined by an expert under magnification to verify it has not been altered in any way. I'm guessing there are ways to recreate this error either by using a regular Thomas, a blank front or altering a NNOF, though the latter method would be questionable as the NNOF in what looks to be PSA 6 or 7 is already worth in excess of $1500.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by West

Posting scans here so folks can discuss.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-TOPPS-...D/372496340533










Looks like a legit card to me.

I've looked at a bunch of stuff, and I think it's real too. I also have it on good authority that fading black without fading the surrounding ink is very difficult.


I actually can't figure out for sure what caused it.


The others are almost certainly from a big bit of debris, probably tape obstructing the plate while it was being exposed.

If it wasn't then, the next likely problem is a bit of debris in the press preventing that part of the plate from being inked. But the most common of those would be a bit of paper, which of course gets inked, transfers, and looks totally different.

Maybe a bit of saran wrap type stuff? That should take ink too, but might not. Usually to repel ink the obstruction has to also hold enough water.

Most stuff like that is very transient, not usually hundreds or 1000+ impressions.


If it's something blocking the inking, then this could be within the first few impressions. Maybe in the first 5? I have a card that has an additional 4 uninked impressions, so it can extend that many at least.


But there doesn't seem to be a shadow of the border, which I'd think should be there.

I can't think there was enough damage that a strip of plate got ripped out. With the pressure required, I'd think the underlying cylinder would have been inked but printed poorly.


It could be a different blue plate that for some reason had the name on it when the rest didn't. That would be pretty strange, but then, it's Topps...

Fortunately, the card has clues!
There's a line from what's probably a plate scratch right near the left of the name plate. If it's an on-press obstruction, there should be cards with the same line.
Unless the plate got changed right after the obstruction.

And Topps wasn't great with registration, if the blue plates ever had the name on them, there should be cards misregistered showing a blue shadow of the name alongside the black printed name.

[West]

Hey Steve,
Thank a lot for the response. Always like hearing from someone with printing experience.

The line (plate scratch) you are talking about - are you referring to the dark line below where the "F" in "Frank" should be? Nearly all the regular NNOFs have this scratch, if that helps at all.

You mentioned the number of impressions (population) of the NNOF. One person with 35+years in the printing industry said that the error was likely caught at the printers after 10 minutes. He speculated that this would have created 700-1000. He said that if it were a small number caught, say 100, then the sheets would have been pulled and sent to the bailer.

What is consistent with this count is the former Topps employee told me that QC pulled uncut sheets every 1000 or so to check for mistakes and print quality.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by West

Hey Steve,
Thank a lot for the response. Always like hearing from someone with printing experience.

The line (plate scratch) you are talking about - are you referring to the dark line below where the "F" in "Frank" should be? Nearly all the regular NNOFs have this scratch, if that helps at all.

You mentioned the number of impressions (population) of the NNOF. One person with 35+years in the printing industry said that the error was likely caught at the printers after 10 minutes. He speculated that this would have created 700-1000. He said that if it were a small number caught, say 100, then the sheets would have been pulled and sent to the bailer.

What is consistent with this count is the former Topps employee told me that QC pulled uncut sheets every 1000 or so to check for mistakes and print quality.

I would add that IMHO there is no way to alter a regular Frank Thomas card to look like the one you posted. I am no expert but did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

It would be a very cool card to look at under a microscope and see what is going on with it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by West

Hey Steve,
Thank a lot for the response. Always like hearing from someone with printing experience.

The line (plate scratch) you are talking about - are you referring to the dark line below where the "F" in "Frank" should be? Nearly all the regular NNOFs have this scratch, if that helps at all.

Yes, that's probably a short plate scratch, or a flaw on the mask (A giant negative the plates were made from.) And it should be on almost all of them, if not actually all of them. It would be interesting to see a regular one with the same mark.

Originally Posted by West

You mentioned the number of impressions (population) of the NNOF. One person with 35+years in the printing industry said that the error was likely caught at the printers after 10 minutes. He speculated that this would have created 700-1000. He said that if it were a small number caught, say 100, then the sheets would have been pulled and sent to the bailer.

What is consistent with this count is the former Topps employee told me that QC pulled uncut sheets every 1000 or so to check for mistakes and print quality.

That sounds entirely plausible. We probably didn't pull sheets for QC as often as that, but we also weren't doing the sort of production Topps was - especially in 1990. Especially when I was on the press, although I did get almost up to speed with the regular guys.
What's especially good to know is that Topps was still using sheet fed presses, rather than web fed. (If the web press had a cutting station they still could pull sheets, so it's not 100% )

I'd be a bit surprised if Topps sent anything to the Baler in 1990. 87 through 91 there's so much out there for misprints. One Ebay dealer had a 5000 ct box of blank front/back cards, all from the same year.

[Rdelmonico]

Originally Posted by steve B

I've looked at a bunch of stuff, and I think it's real too. I also have it on good authority that fading black without fading the surrounding ink is very difficult.


I actually can't figure out for sure what caused it.


The others are almost certainly from a big bit of debris, probably tape obstructing the plate while it was being exposed.

If it wasn't then, the next likely problem is a bit of debris in the press preventing that part of the plate from being inked. But the most common of those would be a bit of paper, which of course gets inked, transfers, and looks totally different.

Maybe a bit of saran wrap type stuff? That should take ink too, but might not. Usually to repel ink the obstruction has to also hold enough water.

Most stuff like that is very transient, not usually hundreds or 1000+ impressions.


If it's something blocking the inking, then this could be within the first few impressions. Maybe in the first 5? I have a card that has an additional 4 uninked impressions, so it can extend that many at least.


But there doesn't seem to be a shadow of the border, which I'd think should be there.

I can't think there was enough damage that a strip of plate got ripped out. With the pressure required, I'd think the underlying cylinder would have been inked but printed poorly.


It could be a different blue plate that for some reason had the name on it when the rest didn't. That would be pretty strange, but then, it's Topps...

Fortunately, the card has clues!
There's a line from what's probably a plate scratch right near the left of the name plate. If it's an on-press obstruction, there should be cards with the same line.
Unless the plate got changed right after the obstruction.

And Topps wasn't great with registration, if the blue plates ever had the name on them, there should be cards misregistered showing a blue shadow of the name alongside the black printed name.

Just a question. Is the NNOF semi transparent? Like a tiffany stock??

[Rdelmonico]

Is the NNOF semi transparentlike a tiffany????

Originally Posted by West

Posting scans here so folks can discuss.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-TOPPS-...D/372496340533










Looks like a legit card to me.

[swarmee]

I've seen some people call it a "blacklessing" version similar to the partially black 1982 Topps cards.

[West]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

I'm not saying that Liss was lying. I'm saying that he wasn't being directly asked how many locations did they print the 1990 issue in. He was being asked about the Bush card so inconsequential information to the point he was addressing wouldn't have been brought up by him. His point was simply that the Bush card was printed in a separate place from the 1990 issue.

For the sake of argument, let's say 85% of 1990 Topps was printed in Duryea and the remaining 15% wasn't printed in New York. There's no reason, and no reasonable expectation, for Liss to mention where that other 15% was printed in the context of the Bush conversation.

Not to mention that he already proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement.

All I'm saying is that his comment serves to purpose in furthering or disspelling any theory.

Arthur

I'm confused when you say "His comment serves no purpose in furthering or dispelling any theory". The whole point of this thread is finding out the who, what, when, where and how of the circumstances in which the NNOF was created. The "where" is a very important piece of the puzzle for a number of reasons that I'm not going to get into.

You say "he proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement". His memory was not wrong. Topps did not know about the other 100 cards until they surfaced later in the lawsuit. So Liss did not know. The only reason that statement was incorrect was because the 100 cards went straight to President Bush and the other 100 went out the back door of the factory or into wax packs unbeknownst to Topps. Liss can only comment on information that Topps makes available to him.

All the circumstantial evidence pointed to Topps former printers going out of business in the early '80's and Topps taking their printing in house from the mid-80's to the mid-90's. We then have the mouthpiece of Topps say that the regular issue 1990 Topps cards were printed in Duryea. The statement, combined with the painstakingly gathered evidence from the last 4 decades indicate that there is a very high likelihood the NNOF was printed in Duryea. You are correct, it is not 100%. I appreciate a healthy amount of skepticism but this seems like quibbling to me.

[Rich Klein]

The 100 George Bush cards was what was officially noted in 1990 as being produced. The second hundred (sheet of 100) which surfaced were not known until they hit the market place and were produced differently than the 100 known Bush cards.

Now, Ken Liss and his family were not regarded as good PR people in 1990 BUT in this case, they accurately mentioned what Topps had told them.

The Bush question is a good sideshow but not germane to the Thomas discussion at this time.

Makes a better subject itself

Rich

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by West

I'm confused when you say "His comment serves no purpose in furthering or dispelling any theory". The whole point of this thread is finding out the who, what, when, where and how of the circumstances in which the NNOF was created. The "where" is a very important piece of the puzzle for a number of reasons that I'm not going to get into.

You say "he proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement". His memory was not wrong. Topps did not know about the other 100 cards until they surfaced later in the lawsuit. So Liss did not know. The only reason that statement was incorrect was because the 100 cards went straight to President Bush and the other 100 went out the back door of the factory or into wax packs unbeknownst to Topps. Liss can only comment on information that Topps makes available to him.

All the circumstantial evidence pointed to Topps former printers going out of business in the early '80's and Topps taking their printing in house from the mid-80's to the mid-90's. We then have the mouthpiece of Topps say that the regular issue 1990 Topps cards were printed in Duryea. The statement, combined with the painstakingly gathered evidence from the last 4 decades indicate that there is a very high likelihood the NNOF was printed in Duryea. You are correct, it is not 100%. I appreciate a healthy amount of skepticism but this seems like quibbling to me.

You're correct and I misspoke when I said his memory was wrong.

I can't explain it any better than my previous 85% analogy. This is certainly a significant piece of circumstantial evidence but it by no means puts the issue to bed, like you suggested earlier.

Arthur

[West]

Thanks for clarifying Arthur. Let’s push forward with our efforts aimed at digging for more clues.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by West

I'm confused when you say "His comment serves no purpose in furthering or dispelling any theory". The whole point of this thread is finding out the who, what, when, where and how of the circumstances in which the NNOF was created. The "where" is a very important piece of the puzzle for a number of reasons that I'm not going to get into.

You say "he proved his memory wrong with the 100 card statement". His memory was not wrong. Topps did not know about the other 100 cards until they surfaced later in the lawsuit. So Liss did not know. The only reason that statement was incorrect was because the 100 cards went straight to President Bush and the other 100 went out the back door of the factory or into wax packs unbeknownst to Topps. Liss can only comment on information that Topps makes available to him.

All the circumstantial evidence pointed to Topps former printers going out of business in the early '80's and Topps taking their printing in house from the mid-80's to the mid-90's. We then have the mouthpiece of Topps say that the regular issue 1990 Topps cards were printed in Duryea. The statement, combined with the painstakingly gathered evidence from the last 4 decades indicate that there is a very high likelihood the NNOF was printed in Duryea. You are correct, it is not 100%. I appreciate a healthy amount of skepticism but this seems like quibbling to me.

This is my card...happy to answer any questions, but basically what I have posted on eBay in the description is legit. I have had NUMEROUS people send me messages on the card and offer information.

As for those questioning the price....well I have sold and bought a few NNOF...never seen anything like this so why wouldn't it be worth more?

I could be way off....or this card could be worth $100K easily if it got slabbed as a NNOF or even a partial blackless....and hit the right buyer/auction.

And just as an FYI...I have had multiple offers...one as high as $3500...those educated about fakes understand this is an authentic unaltered card.

[HalfNipponese]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

This is my card...happy to answer any questions, but basically what I have posted on eBay in the description is legit. I have had NUMEROUS people send me messages on the card and offer information.

As for those questioning the price....well I have sold and bought a few NNOF...never seen anything like this so why wouldn't it be worth more?

I could be way off....or this card could be worth $100K easily if it got slabbed as a NNOF or even a partial blackless....and hit the right buyer/auction.

And just as an FYI...I have had multiple offers...one as high as $3500...those educated about fakes understand this is an authentic unaltered card.

Very cool card. If I had the 10k to burn I would buy it. Someday it will get the respect it deserves.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

This is my card...happy to answer any questions, but basically what I have posted on eBay in the description is legit. I have had NUMEROUS people send me messages on the card and offer information.

As for those questioning the price....well I have sold and bought a few NNOF...never seen anything like this so why wouldn't it be worth more?

I could be way off....or this card could be worth $100K easily if it got slabbed as a NNOF or even a partial blackless....and hit the right buyer/auction.

And just as an FYI...I have had multiple offers...one as high as $3500...those educated about fakes understand this is an authentic unaltered card.

Cool card. I will say whoever you quoted in your eBay listing on what happened is wrong. There is absolutely no way what they said is really what happened IMHO.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Cool card. I will say whoever you quoted in your eBay listing on what happened is wrong. There is absolutely no way what they said is really what happened IMHO.

I agree about the dry ink cartridges thing. Simply not the way high production printing was done. Not even low production printing.

I do think the card is cool, and that it's probably an actual NNOF. Why the shadow of the name is there is a bit of a mystery, but I can think of a few reasons why.

The normal missing black is from a poorly made plate where part of it was obscured while it was being exposed. Sloppy work, and if someone said the platemaker was asleep I might give them that..

Adding the name to a new blue plate by mistake is possible. It's not really likely, but neither is letting a huge bit of tape or something get into the plate exposing machine. (Both are so very Topps though)

"Guys! The blue block with Frank Thomas's name doesn't have a name!"
"Ok, I made a new blue plate and fixed it"
"No! not the blue one, the black plate!"
"But you said blue.... "
"The block is blue, the name is black"

Now there should be "normal" Thomas's with the blue name showing under the black if the registration isn't right. I haven't seen one of those either. But if they messed up and "fixed" the wrong plate there should be some.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Cool card. I will say whoever you quoted in your eBay listing on what happened is wrong. There is absolutely no way what they said is really what happened IMHO.

Could you please be more specific because I quoted two guys basically...one ran printing for two large card companies and the other is widely regarded as the printing error expert in the industry. I am neither an expert in printing nor print errors, but trust what those guys have said.