Weird Old Judge Defect / Bubney 75

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

A few weeks ago, Bubney75 offered several Old Judge cards of high caliber, but non-HOF, players. There was a lot of speculation about the legitimacy of this seller, and I mentioned that I would let the group know when my card arrived.

Well, it came yesterday. I had been concerned from the scan that it might be trimmed. Though I can't say for sure, I don't think it has been. It has corner wear in the places where I thought there might have been trimming.

But it did have another defect that did not show up in the scan at all. The front of the card is literally separating from the back, almost like someone sliced a knife between two layers of the card -- from the top of the card about 3/5 of the way to the bottom. The front half of the card is as thick as the back half. So, it is definitely not a case of the photo separating from the backing. The photo and the front half of the backing are separating from the back half of the backing.

I don't know how this happened, but I think it must have happened long ago. The card is warped, like many OJs I've seen. Both the front half and the back half are warped identically, so I think the slicing must have occurred before the warping -- presumably a century ago.

HAVE ANY OF YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS BEFORE?

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred

I also received my card (Caruthers) within the past few days. The item description does not mention any creasing. I did email the seller requesting further information on several of the cards. I was told that the Caruthers had a small corner crease. Here is the response provided:

kilroy looks great no creases couple light blotches on back
hecker north south crease writing on back
caruthers light corner crease
mullane no creases light blotches on back
stovey small pin hole on top border no creases clean back
corcoran creased bottom right corner light writing on back


The card didn't have a light corner crease rather it had a HUGE crease on the back that did not break through to the front but it did break the paper on the back. I would be willing to bet that it is similar to the defect that Paul described. There isn't seperation between the backing and the photo but it does "hinge" on the cut (broken paper) on the back of the card. Again, the photo is not disturbed.

I let the seller know about it but then I also let him know that I wasn't seeking a refund because I could use this card. When I get a chance I'll try to put up a scan.

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Cummings

I don't think it is at all unusual that there is layer separation on an Old Judge card. I have several that have various levels of that type of "defect" and because of the Old Judge production process (adhering photographs to a cardboard backer), I think it is perfectly normal.

If that is all that is wrong with your card (assuming it was not rebacked after the fact), you have a fine acquisition.

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred

After reading Pauls post again there is a large difference between the problem with Paul's card and the Caruthers.

I have a few OJs with seperation but the photo portion seems to be lifting off the backing rather than having a 50/50 thickness between the front and back of the card.

[Archive]

Posted By: Don J

I too see nothing wrong with the paper separation on your card. What I have a problem with is your seller did not adequately disclose this fault in his auction description. I think you would be fully justified in asking for a refund if that was your intent in listing this thread.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

weird separations, heavy creases on backs that don't match fronts. Sounds like the cards were rebacked.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

Though I wish the seller had disclosed the separating layers, I'm still basically happy with the card and don't want a refund. My only concern is if this is an indication of something worse, like rebacking. I'm pretty sure it has not been rebacked because the overall thickness of the card is correct. I think it would be pretty tough to take an OJ with half the normal thickness and find an appropriate backing to put it on. (Again, it's not just the picture that is separating from the back, it is the picture and half the backing). Also, both the front and the back have exactly the same warping. I think this would take a lot of effort as part of a rebacking job.

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred

Here's a scan of the N172 Caruthers. As you can see the back has a fairly heavy crease and the paper is broken. I don't think it has been rebacked.

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie Vognar

one with the back half falling off the front half, I'd be upset!

Also, creases on the back should be disclosed.

Funny, writing on the back of an old judge doesn't bother me at all, but the two cards here described and one pictured
I consider to be in conditions that should have been mentioned.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

Julie, I agree 100% that these defects should have been disclosed. I guess I was just prepared for even worse. For what I paid, I'm still pretty happy with the card.