Philosophical Trading Question

[whiteymet]

Hi All:

I am somewhat of a newbie in the Net54 fraternity. I no longer collect the really old stuff that most of you do, but have been in the hobby since the mid 1960's.

With that said, I want to start off with a disclaimer. I understand and agree that all collectors can do with their cards/memorabilia etc. what they want to do with it. It is their choice entirely to trade or not to trade anything in their collection. From what I have read in many posts since I have been here it seems most collectors want to help others out whenever they can. A real collegial attitude has been noticed in many posts.

With that out of the way, I wanted your take on a recent encounter I had with a prominent member (at least in the number of posts) of the board.

I am collecting a set that I wrote this fellow about and asked what cards he had in the set. He replied that he had one card, a common player. I replied with a list of cards from the same set that included 13 players two of which are HOFer's.

I asked if he would trade his lone card for any of the ones on the list I sent him. Meaning a one for one trade. Thinking he would be pleased to be able to pick out a HOFer in trade for a common.

In the reply I received, he said he had not thought about trading it, but that he would do any of the following if the cards conditions are comparable:

Both HOFer's or one HOFer plus two commons for his one common.

I replied:

"Since mine are HOFer's and your player is not I feel a one for one deal would be fairer, with you still coming out way ahead ending up with a HOFer.

SCD Standard Catalog has the HOFers at $90 each and your common at $50 almost double in value."

I received no reply to my last email.

FYI, All three cards are comparable in condition and variations so we are talking apples for apples.

So, my question after all this is, if someone is working on a set that you have only one card from, that is a common, would you help out the other guy and trade the card? Forget the HOFer vs common, just the basic idea.

Was I expecting too much? I have always tried to help other collectors in sinmilar situations where I could and this seemed like a slam dunk for a quick one for one trade.

I'd like others take on this for future reference.

Thanks,

Fred

[buymycards]

No, you were not expecting too much.

Rick

[ruth-gehrig]

No you weren't expecting too much.
Michael

[dstudeba]

Hi Fred,

Not sure what set it is, but maybe the other collector thinks that the card he has is a very tough card in the set? I have had similar situations where I have offered a HOFer plus the same pose from a different set and was rebuffed. I never was able to make the deal and still don't know why. Good luck.

[Jcfowler6]

It sounds like a very fair offer. And I have found sometimes without face to face communication it is easy to misunderstand/misinterpret the nuances of conversations.

[vintagecpa]

I know there are some common cards that are harder to find, despite the value assigned by a price guide. There is a good chance if it is a tougher card for you to find, the other collector might have had a tough time finding the card also.

Also, even though cards might appear to be of similar grade, different collectors weigh certain conditional defects different (centering, crease location, back damage, etc.). Most collectors would probably let you know why they want a premium for a certain card, but not all.

[David R]

It sounds like someone I would not trade with. I have found all of the folks I have traded with on BST seem to have the same philosophy I do -- you try to make the trade fair by trading even value for even value.

The only time I have regretted a trade/sale on this Board was when someone on the Board was begging for certain cards to complete a set. I had one of the needed cards and I didn't really want to sell it but I did sell it to him to help the guy finish the set. Less than a month later, the guy sold the set that he professed to love so much in an auction. I felt a little cheated although I totally understand that when I sell or trade a card, it's not mine anymore and the person can do what they want with it. Lesson learned.

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by vintagecpa

I know there are some common cards that are harder to find, despite the value assigned by a price guide. There is a good chance if it is a tougher card for you to find, the other collector might have had a tough time finding the card also.

Also, even though cards might appear to be of similar grade, different collectors weigh certain conditional defects different (centering, crease location, back damage, etc.). Most collectors would probably let you know why they want a premium for a certain card, but not all.

Hi Mike:

I agree with your points above, but in this case neither is true. I am still quite far away from completing my set and the card i wanted in trade is a true common. Since the other collector only has ONE card in the set it is not that he had a hard time finding THAT one card himself.

As for condition, although I saw his card and he never saw mine. The trade talks did not get that far. But, he still asked for the two HOFer's or one HOF and two commons for his one common.

Fred

[kmac32]

One time I had a card that a board member wanted but he only had some cards that were borderline as to if I wanted them. Ended up still trading the cards and my collection grew into my 1921/22 world series collection. Very glad I traded in the long haul. I always try to be fair in trades or sales.

Ken

[spec]

Another tack

Perhaps if you identified the set we'd have a better idea of the nuances involved and another reader might volunteer to be a more compatible trader.

[drc]

The guy didn't have to trade it if he didn't want to. He could put a $1 million trade value on it if he wanted. There's no law or rule or ethic that says someone has to accept someone else's trade offer, no matter how generous the offer. Someone's allowed to keep the item simply because he wants to keep it.

[HRBAKER]

You weren't expecting too much (IMO) but yet neither was he as there are no rules. Some folks are much more "collegial" than others. Since you initiated the contact I assume he figures you really want the card and he can use that to come out on the long end.

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by drc

The guy didn't have to trade it if he didn't want to. He could put a $1 million trade value on it if he wanted. There's no law or rule or ethic that says someone has to accept someone else's trade offer, no matter how generous the offer. Someone's allowed to keep the item simply because he wants to keep it.

Yes I agree!

I thought I covered that in my original post when I said:

" I understand and agree that all collectors can do with their cards/memorabilia etc. what they want to do with it. It is their choice entirely to trade or not to trade anything in their collection."

Fred

[FrankWakefield]

A starting point would be that your expectations were not unreasonable...

But the matter is much more complex. Identifying the set and the particular cards could change that. What the catalogs or some folks might perceive as common could be a misleading, because some 'common' cards aren't common at all. Some of the old cards are thinly traded, only surface every year or so. And the particular player, even though a common, might be particularly dear to some folks. Additionally, you were the one wanting to trade, not him... he's not motivated to trade, he's content with what he has. You want what he has, it may well cost more, ie money or a HOFer.

I can't remember who they've been, but sometimes I've been contacted about some card I have, and how someone claims to dearly want it. They then give me some lowball catalog offer. They're outraged when I've countered with a somewhat high, above catalog range, price for the card. Golly, if I'd been wanting to sell the card then it would be long gone. There's a difference between 'wanting to sell' and a 'willingness to part' with a card. This fellow you're dealing with may merely be willing to part with the card, he might not be that excited about your particular HOFers, he might have sentimental attachment to the card... If you want the card give him what he wants, if you don't then move on and be happy that you're looking elsewhere for that card.

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

A starting point would be that your expectations were not unreasonable...

But the matter is much more complex. Identifying the set and the particular cards could change that.

Frank:

I did identify the set. 1955 Exhibit Baseball Post Card backs. I was looking for Sauer. The two HOFer's I had available among the other "commons" were Irvin and Lemon.

Fred

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I can't remember who they've been, but sometimes I've been contacted about some card I have, and how someone claims to dearly want it. They then give me some lowball catalog offer. They're outraged when I've countered with a somewhat high, above catalog range, price for the card. Golly, if I'd been wanting to sell the card then it would be long gone.

Well-stated.

At some point I'm betting 'the other guy' with the '55 exhibit common is going to jump into this thread - they always do if it lasts long enough

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by spec

Another tack

Perhaps if you identified the set we'd have a better idea of the nuances involved and another reader might volunteer to be a more compatible trader.

It is the 1955 Exhibit baseball set with Post Card backs

[Exhibitman]

The fact that you are making unsolicited trade offers means that you've struck out elsewhere in trying to get the card. And if you are making an unsolicited trade offer to someone who we assume knows as much as you do about the scarcity of the issue, I don't think you have any right or reason to expect that the counterparty will leap to make the trade unless you are offering something really good in return. Not the same or incrementally better, but a lot better. Otherwise, don't be surprised if your offer is not highly regarded. When I've been in that position in the past my offers have been very generous...and usually rejected anyway. I've also given in on trades like that when I've been solicited and have had strong seller's remorse afterwards unless I really got a strong trade in return.

You also reference book values. I don't think too many collectors of rare or obscure sets put any stock in book values. FWIW, some collectors don't enjoy haggling and especially not when a mythical book value is used. "Book" values and money are irrelevant to trades of rare cards. If the book value had any reality to it, or if the card was available for sale anywhere, you could go buy the card. Perhaps by trying to "sell" the deal because of the book values you made him decide you were not worth dealing with because your frames of reference are incompatible.

People have many reasons why they don't want to trade a card, as Frank pointed out. Perhaps the player or the pose is a particular favorite. Perhaps the cards offered in return are low priority cards for the counterparty to own. Perhaps he considers the card to be an irreplaceable part of his collection and doesn't know how or when or if he can replace it, so it makes little sense to trade a card he may not be able to replace for a comparable card. Perhaps the other fellow just looks at trades as "gimme two of yours for one of mine" since none of the cards are going to be offered for sale and there is no actual market price for them. My rule of thumb when trying to make a trade of my dupes for a card I need and cannot find on the market is to be generous in my offers precisely because they are duplicates and I don't need them.

Seems to me that if you don't have a card and profess to really want it, and someone has it but seems cool to your offer to trade it, you should expect to trade at a disadvantage on it and to haggle some. That's what I expect when I make an unsolicited trade offer to a fellow collector for something that is really hard to find. Did you counter with anything other than "yours isn't worth what mine is"? If not, your counterparty may have concluded that it wasn't worthwhile to trade with you.

As for the emotional "I really want it and you should give it to me" appeal, that might work with a buddy, someone you know well and have a history with, but I would not expect that to work with a near stranger to me.

Finally, I'd observe that attempting to publicly embarrass the counterparty by posting a complaint about the dealings is probably not the way to get what you want. I'd venture a guess that even if the collector would have taken a lesser trade with you at the end of negotiations had you followed up with something more than "you are being unfair to me", you now stand no chance of making a trade after taking this issue public.

[Writehooks]

As usual, Adam (Exhibitman) has hit the nail on the head. Well stated, sir. There are no hard and fast rules in trading ... and emotional appeals are, well, a waste of time. Just my 2 cents worth.

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The fact that you are making unsolicited trade offers means that you've struck out elsewhere in trying to get the card. And if you are making an unsolicited trade offer to someone who we assume knows as much as you do about the scarcity of the issue, I don't think you have any right or reason to expect that the counterparty will leap to make the trade unless you are offering something really good in return. Not the same or incrementally better, but a lot better. Otherwise, don't be surprised if your offer is not highly regarded. When I've been in that position in the past my offers have been very generous...and usually rejected anyway. I've also given in on trades like that when I've been solicited and have had strong seller's remorse afterwards unless I really got a strong trade in return.

You also reference book values. I don't think too many collectors of rare or obscure sets put any stock in book values. FWIW, some collectors don't enjoy haggling and especially not when a mythical book value is used. "Book" values and money are irrelevant to trades of rare cards. If the book value had any reality to it, or if the card was available for sale anywhere, you could go buy the card. Perhaps by trying to "sell" the deal because of the book values you made him decide you were not worth dealing with because your frames of reference are incompatible.

People have many reasons why they don't want to trade a card, as Frank pointed out. Perhaps the player or the pose is a particular favorite. Perhaps the cards offered in return are low priority cards for the counterparty to own. Perhaps he considers the card to be an irreplaceable part of his collection and doesn't know how or when or if he can replace it, so it makes little sense to trade a card he may not be able to replace for a comparable card. Perhaps the other fellow just looks at trades as "gimme two of yours for one of mine" since none of the cards are going to be offered for sale and there is no actual market price for them. My rule of thumb when trying to make a trade of my dupes for a card I need and cannot find on the market is to be generous in my offers precisely because they are duplicates and I don't need them.

Seems to me that if you don't have a card and profess to really want it, and someone has it but seems cool to your offer to trade it, you should expect to trade at a disadvantage on it and to haggle some. That's what I expect when I make an unsolicited trade offer to a fellow collector for something that is really hard to find. Did you counter with anything other than "yours isn't worth what mine is"? If not, your counterparty may have concluded that it wasn't worthwhile to trade with you.

As for the emotional "I really want it and you should give it to me" appeal, that might work with a buddy, someone you know well and have a history with, but I would not expect that to work with a near stranger to me.

Finally, I'd observe that attempting to publicly embarrass the counterparty by posting a complaint about the dealings is probably not the way to get what you want. I'd venture a guess that even if the collector would have taken a lesser trade with you at the end of negotiations had you followed up with something more than "you are being unfair to me", you now stand no chance of making a trade after taking this issue public.

WOW!!

Looks like I touched a nerve!!

I just asked a basic question about collector decency/courtesy/proto call. And now all this......

Where do I start?

At the top I guess.

Paragraph one: Yes it was an unsolicited trade offer. As mentioned, I am working on collecting the set. I am missing the card in question as well as many others. It's not like it is the last card I need and have been looking for 10 years for that one card.

I don't know what the knowledge of the scarcity has to do with it, when we are talking trading cards in the same set where there are no short prints, rarities etc. As I mentioned we were trading apples for apples. If you think your card is worth $1 or $1,000 if you are getting another card from the same set what difference should it make?

As for you stating that I had no reason to expect the counterpart to trade unless I was offering something really good in return, goes back to my asking the question in the first place. If someone has just ONE card in the set ( and assuming Hank Sauer is not his boyhood hero, growing up in Chicago etc. as Frank mentioned, which I do not think is the case here) , and the other person is working on the set, isn't it common collector courtesy to trade the card if values and condition are equal? Why try to extract the proverbial pound of flesh?

Paragraph two: About book values, I agree totally that not too many collectors of rare or obscure sets put any stock in book values. Book values were only mentioned AFTER the reply I received where I was offered his one common card for TWO HOFer's or ONE HOFer and TWO commons. Again, we are talking apples and apples here. How can frame of reference be incompatible if we are talking cards from the same set???

Paragraph three: I have already addressed the issue of the favorite player argument etc. I don't "get" the part about his card being an irreplaceable part of his collection that he would not trade for a comparable card. If the card IS comparable he IS replacing the card in his collection with another card from the set. He remains WHOLE after the trade. I am not asking him to trade me a card for a card from another set. Nor do I understand the gimme two of yours for one of mine reference. Again the market price would be the same for commons in the same set. More for HOFer's. As for not needing my duplicates so I should be more generous since I don't need them... I have since traded with two other "nice" collectors one for one from my dupes. So I do need my dupes.

Paragraph four: I did not profess to REALLY wanting the card. As stated I need this card as well as many others. I did not know the other fellow was "cool to my trade offer" until I received his reply as for what I perceived as trying to take advantage of me. I did not consider a counter because in my eyes his proposal was so over the top. Haggling did not even occur to me because of the egregious offer. If you feel like you are trying to be taken, why try to continue discussions? If after offering him a HOFer for a common did not work, I assumed nothing would.

Paragraph five: I do not believe in any of my postings here or to the other guy did I ever say " I really want it so you should give it to me". If my offering one for one or a HOFer for one gives you that impression I am sorry.

Paragraph six: At no time have I attempted to embarrass anyone. I never mentioned a name or a board "nickname". I only mentioned the cards in question after others on the board asked what they were to better understand the situation. I merely asked a basic question to others here on the board. In looking at the replies, it seems most others, given the same situation would have made the trade. Not that that matters. Just an observation. I felt most true collectors who are in the hobby for enjoyment would feel the same way. As for embarrassing the other guy into the trade, and now being told there was no chance of a trade now, I expected that from the beginning. After the reply asking "for the sky" I knew no trade was possible. Perhaps one day I will have something the other guy wants in trade. I hope I will take the high road. For as they say, what goes around comes around.

Fred

[sportscardpete]

No one HAS to sell a card, no matter how sweet the deal is. Yes, if it is a common player for a HOFer, and the common isn't a rarity, then it would seem that it would be a no brainer for the other party. Like stated above, however, there could be sentimental value. Or they are just looking for a really really nice return. Either way, he didn't do anything wrong...

I have a card of a player that has the same name of my friend, and they both have similar big ears. No way in hell I would give that card up for fair value. Just has sentimental value to me, plus it always gives me a good laugh

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

No one HAS to sell a card, no matter how sweet the deal is. Yes, if it is a common player for a HOFer, and the common isn't a rarity, then it would seem that it would be a no brainer for the other party. Like stated above, however, there could be sentimental value. Or they are just looking for a really really nice return. Either way, he didn't do anything wrong...

I have a card of a player that has the same name of my friend, and they both have similar big ears. No way in hell I would give that card up for fair value. Just has sentimental value to me, plus it always gives me a good laugh

Is the card Don Mossi? Talk about big ears!!

[sportscardpete]

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Is the card Don Mossi? Talk about big ears!!

Holy toledo. Just saw a picture of him now. Guy must have had fantastic hearing!

[Exhibitman]

Fred:

Nope, no raw nerves here. I just find your analysis to be disingenuous. Your core argument is that there is something wrong with a collector who will not trade you a card you want on your terms. Sorry, but I don't buy that. I'd never tell a fellow collector what he should want or should be willing to take in trade for one of his cards. They're his cards, not mine, and his reasons for not wanting to make a trade are as valid as my reasons for wanting to make a trade. In my view, it is presumptuous to suggest otherwise.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Fred:

Nope, no raw nerves here. I just find your analysis to be disingenuous. Your core argument is that there is something wrong with a collector who will not trade you a card you want on your terms. Sorry, but I don't buy that. I'd never tell a fellow collector what he should want or should be willing to take in trade for one of his cards. They're his cards, not mine, and his reasons for not wanting to make a trade are as valid as my reasons for wanting to make a trade. In my view, it is presumptuous to suggest otherwise.

The OP never tried to "out" the other collector and he simply was stating what happened and ASKED everyone for their opinion on the matter, not to judge him. And if he did try to "out" the other collector, he never said his name, so why would he care for that matter. For some odd reason a few people here on the board look way too far into these discussions and feel like there are more to it than there actually is. The OP seems like a good guy and isn't looking for anyone to bash this other board member, but would like some advice and insight.

He never said something was wrong with the collector just because he wouldn't sell to him on his terms. You really need to go back and reread his original post. Seems like you interpreted it the way you wanted to and not what it was actually meant for.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

He never said something was wrong with the collector just because he wouldn't sell to him on his terms.

Actually, he did make that assertion, repeatedly:

"if someone is working on a set that you have only one card from, that is a common, would you help out the other guy and trade the card? Forget the HOFer vs common, just the basic idea. Was I expecting too much? I have always tried to help other collectors in sinmilar situations where I could and this seemed like a slam dunk for a quick one for one trade."

--In other words, if the collector is willing to make the trade he is helpful to other collectors. If not, he isn't.

"If someone has just ONE card in the set ( and assuming Hank Sauer is not his boyhood hero, growing up in Chicago etc. as Frank mentioned, which I do not think is the case here) , and the other person is working on the set, isn't it common collector courtesy to trade the card if values and condition are equal? Why try to extract the proverbial pound of flesh?"

--So for not making a trade the other collector is characterized as discourteous and compared to Shylock.

"I have since traded with two other "nice" collectors one for one from my dupes."

--If the other collectors are "nice" for making the trades, the necessary implication is that the other collector is not nice for refusing the trade.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Fred:

Nope, no raw nerves here. I just find your analysis to be disingenuous. Your core argument is that there is something wrong with a collector who will not trade you a card you want on your terms. Sorry, but I don't buy that. I'd never tell a fellow collector what he should want or should be willing to take in trade for one of his cards. They're his cards, not mine, and his reasons for not wanting to make a trade are as valid as my reasons for wanting to make a trade. In my view, it is presumptuous to suggest otherwise.

-1

I completely disagree with this statement. The original poster was looking to find out if what he was asking was so out of line? The large majority, and myself, don't think so.

[David R]

Originally Posted by Leon

-1

I completely disagree with this statement. The original poster was looking to find out if what he was asking was so out of line? The large majority, and myself, don't think so.

- 2

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by whiteymet

In the reply I received, he said he had not thought about trading it, but that he would do any of the following if the cards conditions are comparable:

Both HOFer's or one HOFer plus two commons for his one common.

He offered you a deal and you didn't like it, so you countered. Nothing wrong with either end of it. Maybe it would have been more sociable if he had said, "I'm sorry - I know book is low on this card, but I know it's tough to locate, and I have no real need for any of the cards you have." Instead, he ignored you - not everyone has great communication skills, but no big deal. Also, if it was a card he didn't value highly, and he knew you, maybe he would have given it to you for next to nothing.

[smtjoy]

Interesting thread.

I am not the person mentioned in this trade as I do not have a Sauer but I have a number of 1955 Exhibit PC back cards in my collection and Fred has made a number of trade offers to me in the past.

I find Fred to be a nice fellow who is very passionate about this set and very persistent about completing it. That said I have never done a trade as I have never felt compelled by any offer he has made to me. I have no interest in trading any of the ones I have for one or two cards of the same type, if you want a card I have and you do not have anything I really want then unless your offer wows me then I will just keep the cards I have that I am happy with. The last offer you sent to me was the first time that it had been a card I really want (39 Klein) but it had a pin hole in it, had the card not had this I would have been full speed ahead on working out a trade.

I wish Fred good luck with his collection but I also think just because you think a trade is fair does not mean the other person sees it that way.

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

Interesting thread.

I am not the person mentioned in this trade as I do not have a Sauer but I have a number of 1955 Exhibit PC back cards in my collection and Fred has made a number of trade offers to me in the past.

I find Fred to be a nice fellow who is very passionate about this set and very persistent about completing it. That said I have never done a trade as I have never felt compelled by any offer he has made to me. I have no interest in trading any of the ones I have for one or two cards of the same type, if you want a card I have and you do not have anything I really want then unless your offer wows me then I will just keep the cards I have that I am happy with. The last offer you sent to me was the first time that it had been a card I really want (39 Klein) but it had a pin hole in it, had the card not had this I would have been full speed ahead on working out a trade.

I wish Fred good luck with his collection but I also think just because you think a trade is fair does not mean the other person sees it that way.

Hi Scott:

Yep, we have done business in the past, and hope to do more in the future. Always enjoyed our communications.

However your last sentence above has nothing to do with my original question which was:

So, my question after all this is, if someone is working on a set that you have only one card from, that is a common, would you help out the other guy and trade the card for another from the same set? Forget the HOFer vs common, just the basic idea.

I did respond to his reply and say that I think a fairer deal would be....but nowhere did I say he should see it my way. In fact I thought I covered that in the beginning where I said everyone can do with their collection what they want to do with it.

The other point I would bring up, in most trades it is not quite so B&W as was the case here. If we were trading cards from two different sets, or different conditions, or graded vs. ungraded etc. I would not have brought the topic up. It was the fact that he had only one card from the set, I was offering another card in the set, a HOF which I think we all agree would have more "value", for his card. Which got me to the "do you help the other guy" question.

I am heartened to see that the majority of folks here seem to have answered in the affirmative.

Fred