1968 Topps Double Print Question

[goheels]

All the old price guides list the 1968 Seaver #45 as a double print, but I have never seen a list of exactly what 68 1st series cards were DPed.

My math goes like this--109 cards in the series and the customary repeating the 67 Checklist 1 (Kaat) makes 110 cards or 10 rows. Assuming the Seaver row (Merritt/Seaver/Brandon/Kostro/Pavletich/AL ERA/Alley/RSmith/Holtzman/Sutherland/Pizarro) is one row, what is the other row?

If there are 132 cards or two extra rows on one half sheet, does that mean that the other half sheet had the same two rows repeated, or were there another two different rows repeated?

I know it is a value issue but the guidebooks never listed cards other than Seaver as DP.

I have seen partial proof sheets but not actual full sheets.

Thoughts?

[savedfrommyspokes]

Carlton,
My guess (after viewing the sheet in the post in the link), is that there is one true DP card in the first series and it is the 107 card ...this card would be the only DP in the series (as you have mentioned, the DP is the cause of the different meshes styles on the front). Therefore, Topps would print these 110 (with the DP) cards on the first 10 (of 12) rows of the sheet. The last two rows on the sheet would be the same as the first two. On the second sheet, the first row would be the same as the third row from the first sheet(the first two rows of the 110 card cycle are on the first sheet). This cycle would repeat and repeat from one sheet to the next. So depending on any given individual sheet from the first series, there will be two of (21 or 22 cards) and one of 109 cards(including two of the 107 DPs).

The sheet in the link is from the 2nd series with 87 cards, and you can see this trend on that sheet. I would think the first series would be the same

http://forums.collectors.com/message...62&STARTPAGE=2

[toppcat]

deleted riginal it's 88 then 44 repeat-sorry!

[goheels]

There are 87 cards in the second series, 110 through 196. You can see in your picture that the 88 cards (11 across x 8 rows) includes the 192 3rd series card, as well as the 107 card which was part of the first series as a preview and now repeated here in the second series.

Rows 1-8 end with the Ryan rookie at the left end of the 8th row. You have at the bottom of this half sheet rows 1-4 again; the other half sheet would be rows 5-8 followed by rows 1-8. In that way you have exactly 3 copies of all 88 cards making up 264 cards.

As long as the series had either 88 cards or 132 cards then there would be no SPs or DPs.

Topps wanted to make sure there were plenty CL cards for the kids.

3rd series: 87 cards (197-283) plus card 192 CL3=88 cards x3= 264 on both half sheets.

4th series: 87 cards (284-370) plus card 278 CL4= 88 cards x3=264
5th series: 87 cards (371-457) plus card 356 CL5=88 cards x3=264
6th series: 87 cards (458-533) plus card 454 CL6=88 cards x3=264
7th series: 65 cards (534-598) plus card 518 CL7=66 cards x4=264.

The first series is different. The others have no shortage or extra cards.

[goheels]

Dave,
I count 8 plus 4 on that 5th series sheet, not 9 plus 3.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by goheels

There are 87 cards in the second series, 110 through 196. You can see in your picture that the 88 cards (11 across x 8 rows) includes the 192 3rd series card, as well as the 107 card which was part of the first series as a preview and now repeated here in the second series.

Rows 1-8 end with the Ryan rookie at the left end of the 8th row. You have at the bottom of this half sheet rows 1-4 again; the other half sheet would be rows 5-8 followed by rows 1-8. In that way you have exactly 3 copies of all 88 cards making up 264 cards.

As long as the series had either 88 cards or 132 cards then there would be no SPs or DPs.

Topps wanted to make sure there were plenty CL cards for the kids.

3rd series: 87 cards (197-283) plus card 192 CL3=88 cards x3= 264 on both half sheets.

4th series: 87 cards (284-370) plus card 278 CL4= 88 cards x3=264
5th series: 87 cards (371-457) plus card 356 CL5=88 cards x3=264
6th series: 87 cards (458-533) plus card 454 CL6=88 cards x3=264
7th series: 65 cards (534-598) plus card 518 CL7=66 cards x4=264.

The first series is different. The others have no shortage or extra cards.

Carlton, the 1st series with 110 card series could be printed 6 times on 5 unique 132 card sheets(unique in regards to the order of the rows). So, in the 1st series there would be 5 unique 132 card sheets, in the 2nd through 6th series there would be 2 unique 132 card sheets, and the 7th series would need just one 132 card sheet.

[toppcat]

Quite right-sheesh, I need to wear my glasses more often!

[goheels]

I remember your erudite discussion years back of the complex 67 high series and the analysis. Seems like most notorious SPs occurred in the higher series--66 67 and 71 immediately come to mind.

What about the 68 1st series? Weird series anyway.

By the way, there is a variation from cropping of the inset photo on the Kaat 67 1st CL card. Slight difference in the distance from the top of the inset circle to the top of his cap, but very subtle. There is a difference in the grain/burlap pattern as well at the top of both of those cards.

[ALR-bishop]

Carlton and Dave---you make my head spin

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by goheels

There are 87 cards in the second series, 110 through 196. You can see in your picture that the 88 cards (11 across x 8 rows) includes the 192 3rd series card, as well as the 107 card which was part of the first series as a preview and now repeated here in the second series.

Rows 1-8 end with the Ryan rookie at the left end of the 8th row. You have at the bottom of this half sheet rows 1-4 again; the other half sheet would be rows 5-8 followed by rows 1-8. In that way you have exactly 3 copies of all 88 cards making up 264 cards.

As long as the series had either 88 cards or 132 cards then there would be no SPs or DPs.

Topps wanted to make sure there were plenty CL cards for the kids.

3rd series: 87 cards (197-283) plus card 192 CL3=88 cards x3= 264 on both half sheets.

4th series: 87 cards (284-370) plus card 278 CL4= 88 cards x3=264
5th series: 87 cards (371-457) plus card 356 CL5=88 cards x3=264
6th series: 87 cards (458-533) plus card 454 CL6=88 cards x3=264
7th series: 65 cards (534-598) plus card 518 CL7=66 cards x4=264.

The first series is different. The others have no shortage or extra cards.

The 6th series has 77 cards(including the 454 CL), so it would not have been evenly spread out among 2 unique sheets....so there may be some DP from this series.

Here is a link to a sheet from this series:

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=79951

[goheels]

Not sure if Topps would have done that. I think they set their two half sheets of 132 and let er rip.

Had they done that, we would have seen all kinds of crop variations.

In the top Kaat CL there is a bigger gap between his cap and the inset circle. The TCG on the obverse is aligned differently as well. And that is just from lining up the one card differently on a separate line so the kids could have the pleasure of another checklist.

I guess my math isn't that good anymore. So we now have DPs in the 6th series...

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by goheels

Not sure if Topps would have done that. I think they set their two half sheets of 132 and let er rip.

Had they done that, we would have seen all kinds of crop variations.

In the top Kaat CL there is a bigger gap between his cap and the inset circle. The TCG on the obverse is aligned differently as well. And that is just from lining up the one card differently on a separate line so the kids could have the pleasure of another checklist.

I guess my math isn't that good anymore. So we now have DPs in the 6th series...

With the 6th series, there could have been 7 unique sheets, with no DPs. It would be interesting to see if there are other images of 68 Topps 132 card sheets around showing a different flow within the same series.

The Kaat CL is likely the DP for the first series while the 107 CL more likely appeared on sheets from both series one and two, explaining the two versions of this card. If both of these CL were double printed within the first series, there should be additional DP cards, all meaning that there should be more crop variations(which I am not aware of nor have I seen).

[goheels]

The 107 CL card does have a cropping variation with the portrait. However, it pales beside the dramatic change from burlap (tan wide) to mesh (brown fine).

I would not expect any other differences in the checklists. Technically none of the checklists were double printed if you consider the cropping difference a variation. It's really an automatic variation--unlike others where Topps would correct a mistake.

I relooked at my CL3, the Yaz card with the variation on the back ("increase your score" vs "increase the scores"). The former have the fuller "B" on the cap; the latter have the clipped "B".

PSA has slowly recognized these 68 CL variations. The obvious ones are as follows:

2 (107): Burlap vs mesh
7 (518): Amer vs ML rookies
3 (192): Your vs the scores
4 (278): Copyright on back L vs R

5, 6 have cropping changes like the rest on the front. There will be some kind of difference on the back as well, again part of what happened in a new row of setting up cards.



Incidentally, the Topps Milton Bradley cards 107 CL tan wide and brown fine are no different from the regular issue counterparts. This makes sense; other than the possible borders, and of course the coloring in the Brinkman and Cox cards, the fronts of the MBs are exactly the same. Which makes sense, as Topps lifted them en bloc as a row of 11 to supply to Milton Bradley for their ill-fated (at least in terms of sales) game.

A game board alone went for over 60 on ebay a few weeks ago. Veteran toy and game dealers will tell you they have never seen the game except through an auction house.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Carlton, would the burlap/mesh variances on the 107 checklist be due to appearing on both a first series and second series sheet?

[goheels]

You got it.

That was also why the number of the baseball cards in the 1968 Topps Milton Bradley set was horribly incorrect at 76--it had to be a multiple of 77. To this day PSA still looks as the 107 card as a variation--even though they have graded both Brown Fine Mesh and Tan Wide Mesh "varieties". I suppose they will correct that one day.

[jmoran19]

For the 1st series 44 different cards are printed 3 times (132), and then 66 different cards are printed 2 times (132). Within these 110 diferent cards the Kaat CL is the one printed twice to get 109 unique

[jmoran19]

In general all checklists except the 1st series CL (excluding when the 1st series is 109 cards) are printed two different times, once on the Full sheet that precedes that series CL and once on that specific series full sheet. It was the way Topps advertised the cards coming in the next release. John

[jmoran19]

I believe the top 2 rows of each sheet are the 44 printed 3 times

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by jmoran19

For the 1st series 44 different cards are printed 3 times (132), and then 66 different cards are printed 2 times (132). Within these 110 diferent cards the Kaat CL is the one printed twice to get 109 unique

What make's you think the 44 card numbers were printed 3 times and the 66 cards were printed 2 times for the first series? Are you saying there are three unique sheets from the 1st series? Also, the top two rows are only 22 cards...what are the other 22 cards printed 3 times?

[jmoran19]

The sheet above that shows up, the 55 card block would be printed twice on one half of the full 264 card sheet, then 2 rows would be printed a 3rd time

55 + 55 + 22 = 132

Then on the other half of the full sheet the other 55 cards would follow the same pattern.